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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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WVFRED
.300 member


Reged: 17/01/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Charleston WV
Army & Navy double (more pics)
      #42974 - 04/12/05 02:11 PM

I recently bought an Army & Navy double rifle in 450/400 3 1/4".It is on a webley action 26" barrels and weighs 9 1/2 lbs.Would anyone have an idea as to who made this gun for them?
Thanks for any info.
Fred

Edited by WVFRED (07/12/05 01:15 PM)

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #42977 - 04/12/05 02:32 PM

Fred

You need to do better than that on information. Some pics of the proof marks and any barrel markings.

Looks like a nice rifle.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: mickey]
      #42979 - 04/12/05 03:07 PM


A close up photo of the action would help.

Webley and Scott or one of the Incarnation
of the Webley and Scott brothers firms - they
kept changing the name !!!

I have one and they are great guns - well made, solid,
good shooters (that I have found).

Probably one of the best / strongest actions around.

I also have Army and Navy 50 Nitro's built
on Webley actions.

500 Nitro



Edited by 500Nitro (04/12/05 03:15 PM)

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WVFRED
.300 member


Reged: 17/01/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Charleston WV
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: 500Nitro]
      #43046 - 05/12/05 02:29 AM

Thanks Guys,
I will try to take some better pictures soon.The water table and action is london proved.The water table is also marked cordite 60-400gr max.The side of the action is marked Army&Navy CSL.The left barrel is marked Army & Navy 450/400 3 1/4" solid metal case.The left barrel is marked CSL London 60gr cordite powder 400gr soft nose nickel bullet.It also has the NP with a sword on the water table.
Thanks again
Fred

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470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
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Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43051 - 05/12/05 03:06 AM

Lucky Guy!, I am looking for the same gun myself, I came close yesterday but the gun I was going to buy had issues and I passed.

If you tell 400 NitroExpress the number on the barrel hook he can give you a close date as the gun was probably built by Webley themselves for Army Navy.

Jim

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43072 - 05/12/05 05:03 AM

Fred:

Well, it looks like Webley, but kinda hard to tell. Yeah, we need close ups plus flats, water table, and barrel markings.

Most of these Army and Navy boxlock rifles came from Webley & Scott but not all. Some were built for them by others on Webley actions, and some aren't Webley actions at all.

If Webley built it, their serial number will be in one of two places. Early guns will have it on the short rib between the fore-end loop and the flats. This number will be in the 10XXX to 11XXX range unless it is a very early gun (pre-1901 or so). From serial number 13000, this number is stamped on the left side of the fore-end loop, hard up against the barrels. Note that Webley did not assign a serial number unless they barreled it. If it was built by someone else on an action supplied by Webley, there will be no Webley number on it.

The trade maker is usually shown in the Army & Navy records, which are archived at the University of Glasgow, Scotland. Last I heard, it cost 25 pounds to access the records.
---------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43083 - 05/12/05 08:42 AM

Gosh dern nifty rifle, how's she shoot? Post some pics of yer targets.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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WVFRED
.300 member


Reged: 17/01/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Charleston WV
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: bonanza]
      #43095 - 05/12/05 10:29 AM

400nitroexpress,
The number behind the forend hook is 11170.I also forgot to mention it had ejectors.I haven't shot it yet but will soon..a friend is loading some ammo for me.
Thanks again
Fred

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43105 - 05/12/05 11:09 AM

I had a 450/450 3 1/4 Army Navy that I sold to Ray Atkinson. It was in as new condition and had a letter from Westley Richards that they had re furbished it. Fully cased.

Is this it?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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WVFRED
.300 member


Reged: 17/01/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Charleston WV
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: mickey]
      #43106 - 05/12/05 11:13 AM

Mickey,
This one doesn't appear to have been refurbished and it has been in this local area for many years.It isn't cased either.
Thanks
Fred

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43111 - 05/12/05 11:32 AM

Nice find. I know another member here that would probably like to have one like it. No, two actually, if you include me.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: mickey]
      #43113 - 05/12/05 11:39 AM

Make that 3. How much would a DR like this cost on the used market?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43115 - 05/12/05 11:43 AM

Fred:

This rifle was built by Webley. Webley rifle no. 10483 was built for Gibbs and ordered 1902. No. 10737 was built for Evans and ordered 1904. No. 11397 was built for Evans and was ordered in 1906.

I think no. 11170 should be from 1905. By the way, these early Webley's usually had this same number stamped on top the screw-grip fore-end lever. Rotate the lever out to the side and you should see it looking from the top. What is the Army & Navy serial number on it? If I'm right, it should be reasonably close to 45000?

Does your rifle have shoe-lump or chopper-lump barrels? The reason I ask is that the early Webley double rifles had shoe lump barrels, but they seem to have switched to chopper-lump about the time your gun was built. No. 10737 had shoe-lump, and no. 11397 had chopper-lump.

Would love to see pictures.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Army & Navy double [Re: mickey]
      #43117 - 05/12/05 11:50 AM

Mick:

A guy I know bought an Army & Navy 450/.400 3 1/4" from Atkinson. Was the number on yours 55002? May not be the same gun as I don't remember it being cased.
------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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WVFRED
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Re: Army & Navy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43123 - 05/12/05 12:22 PM

400NitroExpress,
Thanks you very much for the help you have been.I looked and I think it is chopper lump barrels.The ser.# is 469xx.Also it has a file cut rib one standing and two folding rear sight and a brass bead front with a flip up ivory sight.I will work on getting a few good pictures of the action and water table this week too.
Again thank you.
Fred

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43125 - 05/12/05 12:47 PM

Fred:

You're most welcome. Volume 6 of the Army & Navy records covers serial numbers 45332-52485 and the years 1905 to 1909. Since the Webley number looks like 1905, and the Army & Navy number looks like 1905, maybe 1906, I'd say 1905 can't miss it by more than a year. The 1904 rule London nitro proof mark that you described came into use in 1904 or 1905. By the way, Webley seems to have had all of these double rifles proved in London rather than Birmingham, even those they retailed themselves. Brummie vs. London proof is not a reliable indicator as to where they were actually made.

No. 469XX is plenty damned close enough to what I meant by "reasonably close to 45000"!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Army & Navy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43129 - 05/12/05 01:36 PM

Yea, that's it. How's it going for him?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: mickey]
      #43137 - 05/12/05 02:01 PM

Mick:

Fine as far as I know. He was briefly at the DRSS pig hunt last April but had a family emergency and couldn't stay. He still had it then. Nice rifle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mbogo375
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Reged: 09/02/04
Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43138 - 05/12/05 02:39 PM

400NE,

Do you have any info on the possible date of my P. Webley marked transitional model (with W&S Minie)? I think you might have seen photos of this rifle before, since I have posted it here. I would like to try and narrow down the year a little better, and judging from your post it looks like 1899-1901?

Thanks,
Jim

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: mbogo375]
      #43141 - 05/12/05 03:43 PM

Jim:

I remember that we discussed this rifle a good while back, before I started assembling the data base on the Webley & Scott rifle serial numbers that I'm slowly building now. It is a work in progess and not yet what I would like it to be.

For the benefit of the rest of the board, as I remember, your rifle bears the P. Webley name and barrel address, as opposed to Webley & Scott. Refresh my memory, what barrel address does it have? As we previously discussed, the Philip Webley and W. & C. Scott firms merged in 1897, but both lines continued to be marketed under the original names for some time (some W. & C. Scott models continued to be marketed under the Scott name for several decades). Webley & Scott numbered shotguns and rifles separately. The shotgun records survive, but the rifle records do not - which is why I'm reconstructing a serial number table.

I remain firmly convinced that the Webley & Scott rifle serial number series was simply a carryover of P. Webley's rifle series. I can't prove that yet, but I have little doubt that this is true.

The earliest number with a hard date that I have for a Webley & Scott double rifle is 10303. This rifle is a .400/.360 NE, A. & W. C. First Quality model, built for William Evans and ordered in 1902. Your gun is 263 units earlier. While we can't assume that production was ratable, that's getting pretty close. My guess is 1901.

Would you post a few pictures of it again? Always good to hear from you, Jim.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mbogo375
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Posts: 68
Loc: southeastern Georgia
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43152 - 05/12/05 04:56 PM

400NE,

Thanks for the info.

This double is marked P. Webley, and Son. The barrel address is 78 Shaftesbury Avenue, London. Here are a few photos as you requested.

Sorry for hijacking the thread everyone.

Jim

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Army & Navy double [Re: mbogo375]
      #43154 - 05/12/05 05:44 PM

Jim:

Not really a hijack. Thanks for the photos. Classic A. & W. C. model with intercepting sears. The Shaftsbury Avenue address was correct for the London outlet 1894 to 1921.

Fred:

This rifle should look a lot like yours. Note the London proof marks (this is a BPE). Is your dolls head the same shape? This is the A. & W. C. model. If it isn't the same, it will be the other Webley & Scott model, the PHV-1. It's dolls head is shaped like the ace of clubs (old records refer to it as a "club head") and will not quite reach the top lever like the A. & W. does.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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WVFRED
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Reged: 17/01/05
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Loc: Charleston WV
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #43163 - 05/12/05 09:27 PM

400,
Mine is the one shaped like a club.
Thanks
Fred

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WVFRED
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Reged: 17/01/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Charleston WV
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43346 - 07/12/05 12:50 PM

Here is a few more pics...but i need to work on the lighting.

Edited by WVFRED (07/12/05 12:56 PM)

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WVFRED
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Reged: 17/01/05
Posts: 169
Loc: Charleston WV
Re: Army & Navy double [Re: WVFRED]
      #43347 - 07/12/05 12:58 PM



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