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NitroXAdministrator
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Comments on captive breeding of lions
      #380118 - 16/10/23 10:29 PM

Comments on captive breeding of lions

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/...-lion-breeding/

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jvw
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: NitroX]
      #380173 - 18/10/23 12:49 PM

Don Pinnock, who wrote the article, certainly isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. In the past, he has allowed his emotions to get the better of him and took personal swipes at some of those who disagreed with him. He's a rabid anti-hunter as well, so he will rejoice at anything that limits or bans hunting in any form.

Having said that, the end of canned lion shooting in South Africa is a very good thing, in my opinion. It is a horrible business that made money for a few lion breeders, outfitters, and booking agents, but that's about it. The whole CBL lion saga didn't make any contribution to biodiversity, nor did it ever contribute in any meaningful way to lion conservation in Africa. Contrary to what some in the pro-CBL industry claim, the practise also didn't "save" a single wild lion in any of the concession areas, nature reserves, or national parks where they still occur in Africa.

Can a lion born into captivity be dangerous to hunt? Sure. Does this somehow make the whole practise and all the sub-industries that popped up along with the shooting side of things (such as breeding lions in camps and small enclosures, selling lion bones, and creating lion cub petting zoos for ignorant tourists) right? Not in my view. The whole CBL saga was/is the biggest black eye that South Africa's hunting industry ever suffered, even bigger than the so-called colour variant nonsense. The sooner it ends, the better, in my opinion.

A good friend of mine went on a lion "hunt" in South Africa five years ago. The story he was told beforehand was just about the fanciest piece of fiction ever devised. He was told that the lion in question, an adult lioness, had swam through a river from a neighbouring country, somehow managed to cross a 100 km's of very settled, mainly agricultural land (I know the area well, having grown up not very far from there) without catching a single donkey, cow, or goat, and taken up residence on a particular farm where it suddenly developed a taste for game meat. My mate therefore had to do his bit to "save" the wildlife on the farm by shooting the lioness. At the time, my friend didn't know any better, but the whole thing made my stomach turn.

Another person I know went on a lion hunt in South Africa's Kalahari desert. On the first day, metres from the truck, he shot a fully-maned male lion that looked better than the MGM lion. Afterwards, he claimed that the hunt and adventure was "just the same" as if it had been guided by a very well-known Zimbabwean PH of many years' standing in a prime concession area. Really?! He even went further by allowing a certain magazine to publish a fanciful version of the hunt, along with the necessary embellishment. Yes, the outfitter took out a full-page ad in that edition of the magazine, so at least the magazine got something out of the shoot!

There are many such stories out there, and plenty of terrible examples on platforms like Youtube where the whole captive-bred lion saga is depicted in gory detail. I find them too terrible to watch.

Please feel free to disagree.

Edited by jvw (18/10/23 05:38 PM)


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grandveneur
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: jvw]
      #380175 - 18/10/23 07:25 PM

We all hunt primarily because we enjoy it.

Nevertheless, hunting should retain a useful background, meaning meat getting, and as a hunter you have in some way to calm your guilty conscience when killing animals. When I shot a buffalo or an elephant, I get meat for a lot of people. One can also argue with overpopulation of animals, the need for regulation, and so on.

But what about lion hunting?

Apart from the fun of it, the arguments mentioned above do not apply to hunting this species. Added to this is the well-known damage that is caused in a pride when a dominant lion is killed. Selecting an open for shooting lion seems very hypothetical to me.

I see the killing of lions as an expression of machismo and that is why the demand for such hunts is not low. Fortunately it is normally very limited by the quotas and then the price, but the door is open for practices like captive lion breeding and canned lions, which allows a few more hunters to kill lions.

I am against lion hunting, although as a hunter I am not a militant, but I will have no regrets if lion hunting is stopped altogether.


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Marrakai
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: grandveneur]
      #380176 - 18/10/23 08:05 PM

We seem to be forgetting that lion numbers will often increase to exceed the sensible upper threshold in a game conservancy or similarly managed area, and need to be controlled. It makes no sense whatsoever to waste conservancy or anti-poaching dollars on culling excess lions when they could attract high trophy fees from safari hunters. Too, local villagers will benefit from trophy fee dollars just as much as meat from buffalo or ele, income that would be denied to them if lions are culled rather than sold as trophies.

I also can't avoid the thought that we breed pheasants in their tens of thousands to release before paying guns.
Really, what's the difference!

Having said all that, I could never personally enjoy a canned lion hunt myself, but if the industry is sustainable and there is no cruelty involved, how is it different from other forms of animal husbandry like running cattle or operating a chicken farm for profit. At least lion hunting requires fairly large tracts of land to be maintained in a natural state, and that potentially benefits all wildlife.

Please note I didn't read the article, life's too short.
Simply responding to the worthy points posted above.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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grandveneur
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: Marrakai]
      #380177 - 18/10/23 08:28 PM

Quote:

We seem to be forgetting that lion numbers will often increase to exceed the sensible upper threshold in a game conservancy or similarly managed area, and need to be controlled. It makes no sense whatsoever to waste conservancy or anti-poaching dollars on culling excess lions when they could attract high trophy fees from safari hunters. Too, local villagers will benefit from trophy fee dollars just as much as meat from buffalo or ele, income that would be denied to them if lions are culled rather than sold as trophies.

...






These are the arguments of the hunters for the preservation of lion hunting, but arguments that are just as controversial as those of hunting opponents.

I remain of the opinion that a population of predators regulates itself depending on the food supply, meaning the grass eaters, which for many people are the main prey of their hunts in Africa and are therefore desired in large numbers in order to offer clients something to shot. The lions are then quickly declared as an overpopulation.


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grandveneur
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: grandveneur]
      #380182 - 18/10/23 09:14 PM

Before the country Burkina Faso sank into chaos, I hunted in the same area every year for over 15 years.

When there were a lot of buffalos in the area, there were also a lot of lions. I spotted a few every day. If there were few buffaloes there were also few lions to be seen. If there were a lot of lions there were also a lot of killed young buffaloes and antelopes in the bush, but that did not endanger the survive of the plain game. Certainly there was no in this area mass tourism hunting like in South Africa, and Lion hunting was reduced to a minimum.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: grandveneur]
      #380183 - 18/10/23 09:24 PM

Quote:

We all hunt primarily because we enjoy it.

... and as a hunter you have in some way to calm your guilty conscience when killing animals.





I enjoy hunting.

And I feel no guilt about hunting at all.

No more guilt than killing a farm beast for meat. I feel guilty or remorse when an animal is not shot cleanly. Mistakes happen in real life.

It's natural for true humans to hunt and kill. Man is a carnivore/omnivore. Carnivores kill other carnivores. It's natural.

Is it machismo to hunt lions? Well few of us are wet lace panty wearing inner city gayboys ....

I haven't hunted lions, leopards or anything other than feral cats. I'd love to though. No canned lions, expensive wild cats only. A PAC hunt is I won the "lottery".

Some people hate anyone who kills an elephant. I got sworn at once for forty five minutes by a drunk surgeon winery owner at a dinner. He was the husband of his wife who owned a business which is a client of my wife. Else I probably would have socked him hard ...

Some don't like shooting a giraffe. They're pretty dumb.

Foxes are another animal no one eats. Yet they are a great animal to hunt. Smart, wiley. Good fun to hunt. And a service to hunt, pests, destructive, especially here.

I hunt dingoes. Have to get a pure bred skin one day.

I'd love to hunt wolves one day.

I have no problem people shooting coyotes as well.

No one eats these.

Btw people DO eat lions.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions for their own actions.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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grandveneur
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: NitroX]
      #380184 - 18/10/23 09:34 PM

Quote:


...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions for their own actions.




That's right, and that's why I give my opinion on this very controversial topic that lion hunting represents.

By the way, I don't hunt any predators, whether foxes, martens or bears.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: Marrakai]
      #380185 - 18/10/23 09:39 PM

Quote:

We seem to be forgetting that lion numbers will often increase to exceed the sensible upper threshold in a game conservancy or similarly managed area, and need to be controlled. It makes no sense whatsoever to waste conservancy or anti-poaching dollars on culling excess lions when they could attract high trophy fees from safari hunters. Too, local villagers will benefit from trophy fee dollars just as much as meat from buffalo or ele, income that would be denied to them if lions are culled rather than sold as trophies.

I also can't avoid the thought that we breed pheasants in their tens of thousands to release before paying guns.
Really, what's the difference!

Having said all that, I could never personally enjoy a canned lion hunt myself, but if the industry is sustainable and there is no cruelty involved, how is it different from other forms of animal husbandry like running cattle or operating a chicken farm for profit. At least lion hunting requires fairly large tracts of land to be maintained in a natural state, and that potentially benefits all wildlife.

Please note I didn't read the article, life's too short.
Simply responding to the worthy points posted above.




I haven't read the link myself.

I'm not in favour of canned hunts. I doubt I could do one knowingly.

I'm not convinced captive breeding is bad for lion conservation. Thousands of lions part of captive breeding. No industry, they're dead. Expensive to feed. Lions in the wild are at risk of long term population survival.

Lions eat people. Lions eat stock, goats, cattle, donkeys etc.

Much better to be shot with a hunter's bullet and earn tens of thousands of dollars of fees, employment than die from a poisoned carcase.

Those canned pheasants are a good point. They're stupid, fly in a straight line over a line of shooters standing in a straight line. Unlike many wild birds, fly away at the sight of a human.

Captive breeding of birds is banned here as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: grandveneur]
      #380187 - 18/10/23 09:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:


...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions for their own actions.




That's right, and that's why I give my opinion on this very controversial topic that lion hunting represents.

By the way, I don't hunt any predators, whether foxes, martens or bears.




Different opinions make comments and discussions more rewarding and informative.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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poprivit
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: NitroX]
      #380194 - 19/10/23 04:56 AM

I hunted a canned lion hunt. It was about a 4.5 hour chase with a 25 yard shot at the end. I used a handgun and made sure I was up close. Would I do it again? Sure. No different than hunting farm-raised birds, or any plains game animal raised for that purpose.

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grandveneur
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: poprivit]
      #380208 - 19/10/23 06:02 PM

Quote:

I hunted a canned lion hunt. It was about a 4.5 hour chase with a 25 yard shot at the end. I used a handgun and made sure I was up close. Would I do it again? Sure. No different than hunting farm-raised birds, or any plains game animal raised for that purpose.




For the most part confirms what I wrote above about the sense of lion hunting.


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jvw
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: grandveneur]
      #380209 - 19/10/23 09:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I hunted a canned lion hunt. It was about a 4.5 hour chase with a 25 yard shot at the end. I used a handgun and made sure I was up close. Would I do it again? Sure. No different than hunting farm-raised birds, or any plains game animal raised for that purpose.




PRECISELY the problem. A lion has now been reduced to the level of a farm-raised pheasant, to be sold part by part after it has been petted as a cub. Thanks for emphasizing the point.


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poprivit
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: jvw]
      #380210 - 20/10/23 01:55 AM

Jvw & gv, Your last cut of meat came from an open range, wild steer?

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DarylS
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: poprivit]
      #380212 - 20/10/23 04:08 AM

Touche'

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grandveneur
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: poprivit]
      #380215 - 20/10/23 06:54 AM

In Africa there are hunters who hunt, but also a lot of hunting tourists who need a playground to be able to play with their toys.

Unfortunately, animals are affected by this, including especially lions, and some people earn a lot of money from all these people.

Edited by grandveneur (20/10/23 07:48 AM)


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jvw
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: grandveneur]
      #380224 - 20/10/23 10:53 AM

It's a fact that hunting almost everywhere is under pressure. The biggest assets that we as hunters have is our positive contributions towards biodiversity and conservation, as misunderstood as this is by those who oppose hunting in any way, shape, or form. It shouldn't be necessary to defend hunting or the fact that we are hunters, but it's a reality of life in the world we live in and highly unlikely to change.

Captive-bred lions are not bred to be eaten, but to be shot. Please note: SHOT, not hunted. The outcome of the "hunt" is designed to be a foregone conclusion because the outfitter wants his money, be it from day or trophy fees, or the sale of the lion's bones to the Chinese, African whitch doctors, or whoever.

Captive-bred lions make zero contribution to either biodiversity or conservation. They are an artificially created phenomenon that should never have been created in the first place. They are bad for the image of hunters and give ammunition to those who oppose hunting, misguided or otherwise. That's enough motivation for calling a halt to the whole sordid business.


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grandveneur
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Re: Comments on captive breeding of lions [Re: jvw]
      #380225 - 20/10/23 05:50 PM

Hunting in Africa has developed into mass tourism and that's why one have to meet the various demands and expectations.

The majority of hunters in Africa hunt plain game, sometimes also buffalos, and can do this above all thanks to the various game ranches in southern Africa. Everyone can have their own opinion on that, but I don't hunt in areas where game is sometimes released so that it can be shot later. I do rather not go hunting abroad if I don't have enough money. If these facilities did not exist, one would not have so many hunters in Africa because hunting in open areas, in areas that are more or less not touched by humans, is in a completely different price range.

Unfortunately, these practices have now been transferred to lion hunting.


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