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NitroXAdministrator
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Afghan Martini-Henry
      #354500 - 22/06/21 03:50 AM

A soldier from 2nd Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment (2RAR) and Reconstruction Task Force 3 (RTF-3) with a captured Martini-Henry rifle in Afghanistan, 2007/8.



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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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degoins
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: NitroX]
      #354503 - 22/06/21 04:53 AM

Very cool!!

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EDELWEISS
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: degoins]
      #354505 - 22/06/21 05:35 AM

Now the question is will he be able to bring it home?

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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93x64mm
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #354511 - 22/06/21 07:25 AM

You just wouldn't know what would turn up next in Afghanistan!
That old girl's probably been there 100+ years....would you be game to fire it?

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EDELWEISS
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: 93x64mm]
      #354516 - 22/06/21 08:30 AM

Quote:

You just wouldn't know what would turn up next in Afghanistan!
That old girl's probably been there 100+ years....would you be game to fire it?



...but is it real or a copy? Ive seen a boat load of "copies" out of A-stan and Pakistan. Some are so poorly made that a child could tell they were fakes and some so good an arms historian might have a head scratch or two. I had a Lee Metford Carbine that look perfect except for the wrong crown/date. I had NO hesitation shooting that one

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #354529 - 22/06/21 06:11 PM

I imagine that is real and has been there for 140 years.

I hope its Afghan owner got to keep it.

The soldier may be holding it to display it, not to pinch it off some Tali.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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lancaster
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: NitroX]
      #354595 - 24/06/21 04:39 PM

afghanistan could be a source for vintage firearms for the next decades. I hope the taliban pacify the country now very quickly. it seems they are the only one able to do it.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: lancaster]
      #354600 - 24/06/21 07:31 PM

Quote:

afghanistan could be a source for vintage firearms for the next decades. I hope the taliban pacify the country now very quickly. it seems they are the only one able to do it.



They don't pacify anything. Except oppressing women, people wanting to dance, girls wanting to be educated, boys who want to learn more than the Koran Book of Death, among many other things.

When the Taliban "ruled" they did not rule large areas of the country.

Same will happen again.

When the infidel is gone, they will all fight again, each other.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (25/06/21 03:34 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: NitroX]
      #354609 - 25/06/21 01:08 AM

Another Afghan Martini – Henry, this time a sporter that has seen better times too. Built on a Francotte type detachable lock action, it is in .577 – 450. The full ribbed, Henry rifled barrel is 26” long.

The “mosque” design on the receiver was the pre-1909 mark of the Kabul Arsenal.

In 1893 Emir Abdur Rahman had the British set up a modern (for the time) arms and ammo factory at Kabul to supply his army. Most known production were British style Martini – Henry and Martini – Enfield military rifles, though some repeaters and machine guns are recorded too, see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsYZPhdxGZM&t=603s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7musX-aCwwQ&t=21s
In the 1920s the Kabul Arsenal was closed down.

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DoubleD
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: kuduae]
      #354617 - 25/06/21 08:39 AM

Kuduae,

This is not a Martini Henry. This a Sporting Pattern Martini. I don't think this is a detachable lock as the safety makes that difficult. But it could be-Francotte and Belgium's had a number of clever variations.

The Afghan marking seen to indicated something other than a run of the mill sporter. The Mosque was applied to the government arms. I had a Kukri with that mark-the ruler used Gurkha body guards. And of course the Kabul Arsenal guns all bore this mark. But this is not a Kabul Arsenal gun.

This is a very nice gun.

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DD, Ret.

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DoubleD
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: DoubleD]
      #354632 - 26/06/21 12:06 AM

I shared this post with a friend who has deep knowledge on the Afghan Guns. Here is his response.

Quote:

I would love to have it.

I believe the amir acquired a number of samples and sporting guns and these were stamped as royal property. The mosque style is from circa1894 . I need to look the scrip on my desktop to see it better.



As soon as I hear back on anything else, I will share.

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DD, Ret.

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kuduae
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: DoubleD]
      #354635 - 26/06/21 12:54 AM

Quote:

I don't think this is a detachable lock as the safety makes that difficult. But it could be-Francotte and Belgium's had a number of clever variations.


What’s this? To me, this is a detachable lockwork. BTW, the safety works on that little tail of the sear protuding from the rear wall. The workmanship of the parts is slightly below that I've seen on British or Belgian Martini lock parts.

Quote:

The Afghan marking seen to indicated something other than a run of the mill sporter. The Mosque was applied to the government arms. I had a Kukri with that mark-the ruler used Gurkha body guards. And of course the Kabul Arsenal guns all bore this mark. But this is not a Kabul Arsenal gun.


Here is a photo from the net of a Kabul Arsenal military carbine and another one of the markings on my rifle. To me the “mosque” mark and the inscription look the same. Afaik the line roughly translates to “Kabul workshop”.


As it is a Martini type action with a Henry type barrel, it is a Martini – Henry sporting rifle to me as well as the military Martini – Henrys that are named so for the same features.

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Louis
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: kuduae]
      #354647 - 26/06/21 07:34 AM

Afghan Persian, also called Dari, is almost similar to Arabic.

I can read the year "1319", which corresponds to either year 1901 or 1902 AD (Hijri & Gregorian calendars do not fully overlap).
For the two words, it's a bit difficult because they are drafted in a very old script I am not familiar with, I can read "Kabul" on the left but cannot decipher the word on the right as I recognise some letters but not all; if of the utmost importance to any Forum member I may ask "from the horses' mouths", in Afghanistan.



Hope that this will help.

Louis

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"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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Rule303
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: NitroX]
      #354649 - 26/06/21 08:27 AM

I wonder what other old firearms they have found. That one looks to be in very good condition for its age and circumstance. Unfortunately no tell what the internals a re like.

Re the sporting Martini, what a wealth of knowledge here.

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DoubleD
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: Rule303]
      #354665 - 27/06/21 12:49 AM

Thank you pulling that lock out, it is indeed a detachable lock.

There is a drawing of such a lock in Alain Daubresse's book "The Francotte Dynasty", but does not show a connection to the safety. In other version of Martini's this type of wing safety interferes with the detachment.

Can you share pictures of the safety interior connection, inside the action and the back of the trigger group?

There are subtle differences in the Mosque and script that help narrow its date range. The person I am consulting with is part of small group of researchers currently working on a book about These Royal Afghan guns.

The mosque for example on your gun has very different details than the mosque you found in the internet. The script is also different. Apparently just like the format of the markings on the British Martini Henry, the Afghan Royal Armory had a marking format with specific meaning.

My friend implied an interest in your gun. He said he was never able figure out the export code from Germany to US.

Does your gun have any proof or view marks on the internal parts or on the barrel under the fore stock? The engraving is very European. The placement of the Mosque and script points to ownership marks added to the gun when it was brought to Afghanistan.

This is a very interesting gun. Thank you so much for sharing.

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DD, Ret.

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kuduae
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Re: Afghan Martini-Henry [Re: DoubleD]
      #354670 - 27/06/21 04:19 AM

The barrel is rough inside, but the 7 groove, right hand twist Henry rifling is still prominent.
Except the Afghan mark and inscription shown in the photos, there are absolutely no proof or view marks, western or oriental numbers or letters or anything else, neither on or under the barrel nor on receiver or any internal part. (For German registration purposes I had to stamp 3 tiny letters on the front of the receiver as well as “577 450” on the barrel).
To take photos of the safety arrangement I will need some time to take the lockwork and safety apart. But here is a short description: The Martini cocking lever has an integral curved tail that protudes rearward through a slit in the lock’s rear wall. This tail is visible in the detached lock photo above. On firing this tail moves up. The safety works similar to a common Greener type. The safety lever moves a round stem. With he lever to the rear the stem blocks the tail from moving up. With the safety lever to the front a cut out in the stem allows the tail to pass and the cocking lever to move.

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