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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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180pilot
.224 member


Reged: 31/07/05
Posts: 3
12 bore bullets or molds
      #35327 - 02/08/05 04:29 AM

I would like any information on bullets for 12guage use.
I know of Dixie slugs here in the US .729 dia. 740 grains.
However, they say they will stop selling it as a reloading component on Sept 1. I don't see anything else that is made like the Dixie of hardened lead yet.



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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 180pilot]
      #35362 - 02/08/05 11:00 PM

Try Lyman.
They make a couple of moulds for 12 and 20 gauge and also have a mould for round ball...
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #35599 - 09/08/05 02:39 AM

best is to buy a real Paradox mould

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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 180pilot]
      #35644 - 10/08/05 06:07 AM

Round ball moulds of ANY size can be ordered with an e-mail to Jeff Tanner in the UK. He'll cut the mould, and mail it within 2 weeks, generally 1 week. Payments go to an address in California with information on that included with the mould.
: My 12 bore and larger RB moulds cost roughly $23.00 Us. The moulds are brass, fit Lyman or RCBS handles and have no sprue cutter. As they have a large "V" shaped cone at the top of the sprue, the balls are easily cast without any mess, and the sprue snips off with side cutters very easily. A quick brush with a rasp, and they're perfectly round without any mark of a sprue so loading is very easy.
: I worked up BP and smokeless loads for a 12 bore SXS smoothbore some time ago, with most excellent, accurate results.
: Round balls are an excellent 12 bore projectile and of course, much lighter than a Parodox ball. They were, of course, used prior to the invention of the elongated slug.
: For elephant hunting, perhap an original paradox mould should be obtained - I'd expect them to be enormously expensive. Round balls will most definitley work, though.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Loc: Western Australia
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #35723 - 11/08/05 10:58 PM

This mould came with a Holland and Holland SXS Paradox.
Solids weigh 860gns.
Hollow points weigh 810 gns .


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 233
Loc: Oregon high desert
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #35800 - 14/08/05 02:09 AM

You can get Paradox moulds from NEI.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #35825 - 14/08/05 03:36 PM

Bill who is NEI.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 4828
Loc: Alleghany County, Virginia, US...
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #35828 - 14/08/05 08:12 PM

Alan,

I'll offer that answer. Go to:

NEI Handtools

Good luck,

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: CptCurl]
      #35844 - 15/08/05 02:54 AM

Thanks for the address - found the 10 bore mould I need.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: CptCurl]
      #35880 - 15/08/05 02:50 PM

Thanks Curl,now I have found somewhere else to spend (invest) my money.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 233
Loc: Oregon high desert
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #35881 - 15/08/05 05:01 PM

Fellas, there's also an outfit down your way -- CBC? -- that makes the old paradox molds for a good price. Search under ammo dump or some such name -- think it is in Australia.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2687
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #35897 - 15/08/05 09:58 PM

Bill:
The mold-maker is Jim Allison, his business name is CBE, Cast Bullet Engineering. He made my nose-cavity Paradox brass-mold, pictured here:



It makes perfect Fosbery-style projectiles, 750gr without the cavity, 670gr with the cavity.



Dunno whether you fellas state-side would think Jim's molds are inexpensive, though. We're buying about 78 US cents to the dollar at the moment, as opposed to the last decade when you've been spoiled with good Aussie quality on the cheap!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Marrakai]
      #35914 - 16/08/05 02:19 AM

Marrakai: That's the fella.

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retex
.224 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 7
Loc: Texas
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Marrakai]
      #36742 - 02/09/05 08:46 AM

That is an interesting Paradox cartridge constructed from a shotgun case. What type of tool did you use to crimp the case around the bullet?

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: retex]
      #36814 - 03/09/05 03:58 PM

retex:
The case is chucked in a lathe and the crimp is applied with modified cir-clip pliers. As the crimp area heats up from friction, the pliers are gently squeezed resulting in the crimp you see in the photo.

I should add that we don't do this anymore, since Vic Pedersen has been making roll-crimpers as per the photo in Graeme Wright's book. The old collar-crimp is a bit time-consuming to set up each shell in the lathe, and can also come slightly loose if left in the second barrel during a couple of one-shot kills. Looks neat though! ...and according to the old catalogues, its more 'pukka' than the roll-crimp!

Although disgraceful to some, the use of modern plastic hulls is a convenience for high-volume buff and pig-hunting in northern Australia. Pick them up (literally!) at no cost, and no worries about losses in the field. With cast bullets, its the cheapest genuine 'big-bore' any of us will ever reload for!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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cyrixoutside
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Reged: 30/05/06
Posts: 2
Loc: jaipur, india
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Marrakai]
      #58072 - 31/05/06 09:27 PM

Hi,

where can one buy the roll crimpers made by Mr Vic Pedersen.

Thank You

rajat


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 2687
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: cyrixoutside]
      #58077 - 01/06/06 12:35 AM

If you lived in Australia, simply get Vic to make you one. If you live in the US or elsewhere, your local gunsmith or fitter'n'turner could probably knock one up inexpensively.

Where do you live, cyrixoutside? As a courtesy, why not update your personal profile to show your country at least. Then questions like this are easier for others to answer.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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cyrixoutside
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Reged: 30/05/06
Posts: 2
Loc: jaipur, india
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Marrakai]
      #58142 - 01/06/06 09:18 PM

hi,

sorry i had not realised, one could edit ones profile. now done

anyway i live in india, and no gunsmith out here can make a roll crimper.

maybe if i show him an actual one then perhaps he could copy it, but even that is unlikely.

so how does one contact vic, does he have a web page or email address.

thanks

rajat


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450
.300 member


Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 193
Loc: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 180pilot]
      #68482 - 01/01/07 08:52 PM

This my first topic on the nitro express. I am playing around with a Mossberg Slug master trying to duplicate pardox loads. I have received some parodox projectiles from a friend which to test prio to me ordering a mould from CBE, Sydney. These cast projectiles weigh 730 grains and have loaded them in to winchester casees with a plastic powder wad and two felt wads with ADI AP70N. The results at 25 yards was a 1 1/4 inch 3 shot group. Pleasantly surprised.

I have not been able to get the round balls to shoot as good yet.

Does anyone have any suggested loads to try. I know it is not a Holland & Holland, but it is mine.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #69122 - 09/01/07 03:14 AM

450- Is the slugmaster rifled? If so, round balls probably won't shoot as well in it as a smoothbore. The twist is way too fast for them at any worthwhile velocity. If you slowed them down to about 800fps, they'd probably shoot accurately, but be of no use.
: A friend of mine and I are going to rifle a couple 12 bore barrels this coming summer with something around 80" to 100". These very much slower twists will deliver very good accuracy with round balls. The 35" twist (or therebouts) in the rifled 12 bores today, is about right for a very short sub-12 bore bullet - like a 450gr. .50 cal. BP rifle slug. The full sized paradox bullet would be better yet in about a 50" to 80" twist.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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450
.300 member


Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 193
Loc: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Daryl_S]
      #69147 - 09/01/07 11:05 AM

Daryl S
Yes the slug master has a fully rifled barrel. I do not know what the twist is. Last night I fired three shots made up in Brass 12 bore cases, 150 grains of fff black powder, card wad, two felt wads and a 570 grain ball. Fired at 40 yards I had 3 large holes in a triangular formation in about 2". It is great to shoot these loads. There was a metal swinging target begind my target boar and the 5" round plate was about 3/8 thick. One of the balls hit it after going through the target. It actually knocked the stand over. Very spectacular though all the smoke. I will chrongraph these loads and it might give me a indication of what velocity works.
Next is to try some parodox slugs when I get my Mould.

Thanks for you help.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 17919
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #69197 - 10/01/07 06:58 AM

You accuracy with round balls sounds just great. I am somewhat surprised though. Of course, in this hobby of ours, nothing is absolute.
; My own load deveopement in a 12 bore double with smooth .725" bores was most enlightening.
; Somewhere I had read of the 150gr. charge being the intermediate charge for 12's with the lighter charge around 110gr. and the heavy at 191gr.(7 drams) My short barreled double managed the heavy charge in the 1,600fps range with around 1,350fps for the intermediate charge. I used the plastic base wads from spent trap loads, one on top of the powder, one cup-up to hold the .715" ball in the centre of the bore. This system worked well, but a card wad between the powder and bottom cup was required to prevent the BP from melting and coating the bore with plastic.
; I used a coned crimp head for forming the plastic hulls over the ball. This worked very well indeed, and prevente the balls from moving in the unfired bore, even with several shot in the other for a test. With smokeless loads, the bottom card isn't necessary, but intermediate fibre wads were used to take up the extra space afforded by the rreduced capacity smokeless powder. I used SR4756 and SR7625 due to their lower pressure developement in shot loads. I worked up to the same velocities that BP gave with no pressure related problems - about 1,550fps with smokeless for maximum velocities. One thing of note, is the recoil was much reduced when using smokeless powder, even though the 'power' was the same. With smokeless loads, I was able to use a full normal crimp. I marked the bases with a felt pen to differenciate them from shot loads.
: A friend and I are going to rifle a couple 12 bore barrels next summer, maybe pumps for experimental load developement. I am looking for a camp-bear load as they tend to be a problem where I guide, especially when moose are on the meat pole. The twist rates will be somewhere between 90" and 120" for round ball use only. The use of round balls in both smooth and rifled barrels increases the penetration and attendent killing power of the shotgun, be they rifled or smooth. Good enough for hunting in India and Africa, good enough for me here in B.C. Incidently, Wheel WEight alloy makes a marvelous penetrator, whereas pure lead expands a lot. A 12 bore bal removed from under the hide, off side of a moose, revealed a disk of lead, full weight, but over 1-1/8" in diameter. The WW ball is for big bear.
: They are spetacular smackers, aren't they. Shooting heavy steel plates alongside someone with a 7mm or .300 Mangleum, really opens their eyes to what momentum really is.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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450
.300 member


Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 193
Loc: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Daryl_S]
      #69309 - 11/01/07 01:42 PM

Daryl s

Man, to be able to smack a moose or bear with a couple of these balls would certainly get the excitement flowing.

If I get mine going properly, I will be heading of after pigs. If I get a chance to head up North, I might try a scub Bull or a Camel.

It would be interesting to see the difference in performance in the rifled barrel as against the smooth bore. My cast balls (oops) are .735 and the bore of my gun is .729. and weight 570 grains and rolled crimped. I cronographed a smokeless test load which came in at 1250 FPS, this may be able to be improved on. I did not find the recoil of the 150 grns of BP to bad, more of a great shove.

I hope to be testing paradox projectiles by the end of next week. Half the fun is working up loads to get them to shoot. I will let you know how they work out.

Once this is working, I will start on the loads for a my Rugar #1 that is being rechambered to 450 nitro 3 1/4. That will be another thread.

Let me know how the rifled barrels go.

Thanks for your help.

450

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: 450]
      #69322 - 11/01/07 04:24 PM

"Last night I fired three shots made up in Brass 12 bore cases, 150 grains of fff black powder, card wad, two felt wads and a 570 grain ball. "

450, I just chronoed some 700gn balls over 145 FFFg last weekend in my 10 and was getting an even 1300fps. I'd imagine your loads are in the 1500-1550 range, which is smokin!!
Keep us posted on your progress.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12 bore bullets or molds [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #69358 - 12/01/07 09:53 AM

450- I'd expect there are some powders available to you in the similar burning rate as our 4756 is.
: This powder allows for 8,000LUP loads with 1-1/4 ounces of shot. That's where I started. The wads and ball produce less friction in the bore (I believe) than a round ball, so I was able to increase the charges a bit, chronographing all the way, stopping at 1,550fps. with the 545gr. ball.
: When we get our barrels rifled, I expect to have Jeff Tanner make me the right sized ball.
: Friends of mine used undersized balls at 684" and 466gr. cast in wheelweights with cloth patches in their 12 bore full choked guns. These which 5"groups at 50 yards, double beads only for sights. This loading was used on several big bull moose, with good effect, while duck hunting.
; It may be possible to reduce pressure and gain accuracy without any leading by experimenting with slightly undersize balls and patchse as they did. I'd personally expect 2" groups at 50 yards, maybe better, especially with sights.
: Good luck on the hogs.
: 1,300 fps with 700gr. balls sounds great Bob.

Edited by Daryl_S (12/01/07 09:54 AM)


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