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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Ripp
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Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby
      #327975 - 02/05/19 10:55 PM

Head to Head: .404 Jeffery vs. .416 Rigby

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2019/4/5/head-to-head-404-jeffery-vs-416-rigby/

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Daryl_S
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Ripp]
      #327978 - 03/05/19 02:42 AM

Essentially the same, except the Rigby should develop lower pressure. Chose your poison.
Seems a good article.
I expect the .425 WE would be in the same class.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Daryl_S]
      #327989 - 03/05/19 10:38 AM

At the BGRC here in Victoria the 404 Jeffery is hands down the favorite with nearly everybody using one where as there are only a few 416 Rigby's. Smooth feeding and the ability to be reasonably easily fitted into a standard length M98 action helps a lot. I am building one at the moment.

Matt.

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Rule303
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Ripp]
      #327990 - 03/05/19 10:48 AM

To me it is a case of flipping a coin. Both, to me, are excellent cartridges and work well. I have the Rigby as it was way cheaper to buy at the time than the 404.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Rule303]
      #327993 - 03/05/19 11:37 AM

Not saying anything bad about either, just pointing out a interesting (at least for me)fact. I would be just as happy with a 416 Rigby if I had a long action for one.

Matt.

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Daryl_S
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #327994 - 03/05/19 12:45 PM

Yes - and - a .416 Rem would do exactly the same as either- and for less money for the same quality.


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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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szihn
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Daryl_S]
      #328001 - 03/05/19 11:29 PM

Well the article spoke the historical truth, The original 404 was made specifically to duplicate the 450/400 and it did a good job of that. But the 416 Rigby was made to fire a bullet of like weight 200-225 FPS faster. Some hunter have noted the "shock" effect that extra velocity gave.
My experience with the 404 was mostly with the German RWS ammo which also fired a 400 grain bullet at 2350. But I had a few old Knyoch cartridges from the 30s, and to be honest, they seemed to work just fine too.

I have never killed buffalo, lion, hippo or any African game with a 416, but I have killed 2 elk with a 416 Taylor which fires the exact same 400 grain bullet as the Rigby at the same speed. (mine chronographed at 2365 with my load) Works fine. But I think I would have to live with a 416 for a few years to have enough knowledge to speak honestly or intelligently in any valid comparison.

If bullet construction were equal, I cannot see any reason I would believe a 400 grain bullet at 2350 FPS of .423" is going to be noticeably different in it's effect then a 400 grain bullet at 2350 FPS of .416" diameter------------ and if it were to be different the nod would probably go to the bullet of the slightly larger diameter. Or am I missing something here?

Some will site the fact that the Rigby (and Remington and Weatherby and probably 2-3 others) can all be loaded to higher velocities. I do not despite that, but I'd ask why could you not also do the same with the 404? If the action is strong enough to hold the additional pressure, and the thrust on the bolt face is equal (or slightly less in the case of the 404) I can't see any reason the 404 could not be loaded to higher speeds. I seriously doubt the addition of a bit more speed has any effect that is truly beneficial in killing large game unless it were possible to make a solid bullet that would not deform in ways we don't want and drive it a LOT faster. Maybe 2900 or more. But I am only guessing here. I base my statement on the words of a good friend who used the 416 Weatherby for 3 years and later told me it was never any better then his older 416 Rigby and sometimes the faster bullets acted erratic. The Rigby was not erratic.

I also see NO reason why I'd want to speed up with either a 416 bore rifle or a .423" bore rifle past about 2400.

So I think the 2 shells as loaded today are probably equal--- or so close as to make no difference at all.

Just my thoughts in passing..........


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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: szihn]
      #328007 - 04/05/19 02:58 AM

Quote:

Well the article spoke the historical truth, The original 404 was made specifically to duplicate the 450/400 and it did a good job of that. But the 416 Rigby was made to fire a bullet of like weight 200-225 FPS faster. Some hunter have noted the "shock" effect that extra velocity gave.
My experience with the 404 was mostly with the German RWS ammo which also fired a 400 grain bullet at 2350. But I had a few old Knyoch cartridges from the 30s, and to be honest, they seemed to work just fine too.

I have never killed buffalo, lion, hippo or any African game with a 416, but I have killed 2 elk with a 416 Taylor which fires the exact same 400 grain bullet as the Rigby at the same speed. (mine chronographed at 2365 with my load) Works fine. But I think I would have to live with a 416 for a few years to have enough knowledge to speak honestly or intelligently in any valid comparison.

If bullet construction were equal, I cannot see any reason I would believe a 400 grain bullet at 2350 FPS of .423" is going to be noticeably different in it's effect then a 400 grain bullet at 2350 FPS of .416" diameter------------ and if it were to be different the nod would probably go to the bullet of the slightly larger diameter. Or am I missing something here?

Some will site the fact that the Rigby (and Remington and Weatherby and probably 2-3 others) can all be loaded to higher velocities. I do not despite that, but I'd ask why could you not also do the same with the 404? If the action is strong enough to hold the additional pressure, and the thrust on the bolt face is equal (or slightly less in the case of the 404) I can't see any reason the 404 could not be loaded to higher speeds. I seriously doubt the addition of a bit more speed has any effect that is truly beneficial in killing large game unless it were possible to make a solid bullet that would not deform in ways we don't want and drive it a LOT faster. Maybe 2900 or more. But I am only guessing here. I base my statement on the words of a good friend who used the 416 Weatherby for 3 years and later told me it was never any better then his older 416 Rigby and sometimes the faster bullets acted erratic. The Rigby was not erratic.

I also see NO reason why I'd want to speed up with either a 416 bore rifle or a .423" bore rifle past about 2400.

So I think the 2 shells as loaded today are probably equal--- or so close as to make no difference at all.

Just my thoughts in passing..........




Agree with the above..

I have killed lion, hippo, ele, etc with a .416 Rem.. and the effects on game was/is very impressive.. really can't see how the .404 would be much if any different..

The only comparison I have, is the last trip to Africa I used a .375H&H on a buffalo.. same bullets I shoot out of my 416Rem albeit less grains..in that case, I did see a noticeable difference in reaction vs the .416... both hit in almost identical areas.. with the 375H&H he hunched up at the impact and took off like he wasn't hit.. the 3 I have shot with the .416, that was not the case.. could tell almost immediately it was a good hit.. all still died however in my one case thus far of comparing, again, it was noticeable ..

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szihn
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Ripp]
      #328016 - 04/05/19 05:54 AM

Just out of curiosity, how far did the buffalo go after it was hit with the 375?

Both with A-Frames?


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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: szihn]
      #328017 - 04/05/19 06:16 AM

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, how far did the buffalo go after it was hit with the 375?

Both with A-Frames?




YES--both with A-Frames..

I would guess 150-200 yards..

He was dead when we got there but was surprised he went that far.. he was totally calm before I shot him..he was grazing..didn't know we were there..wind was good ..we snuck in and shot him at about 75 yards...

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Homer
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Ripp]
      #328024 - 04/05/19 07:49 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks for sharing Ripp.

I suppose, in a modern made magnum action, they could be called Twins?
I'll stick to my .404 Jeffery ........... but if it was a .416 Rigby, I wouldn't feel undergunned.

Avagreatweekendeh!
Homer

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Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Daryl_S
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Homer]
      #328045 - 05/05/19 03:19 AM

LOL - U-2

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #328062 - 06/05/19 12:01 AM

I agree, the .404 in a standard Mauser action finishing up at 8&1/4" lbs is about as close to perfection that a bolt gun can get. Would need to be a falling block to be improved upon .

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Ripp
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Re: Head-to-head- 404 Jeffery vs 416 Rigby [Re: bouldersmith]
      #328065 - 06/05/19 12:10 AM

Quote:

I agree, the .404 in a standard Mauser action finishing up at 8&1/4" lbs is about as close to perfection that a bolt gun can get. Would need to be a falling block to be improved upon .




Agreed.. great combo in power, performance and weight of rifle..

Another little article I found on the .404...

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2017/6/9/behind-the-bullet-404-jeffery/

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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