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unspellable
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Loc: Iowa
The light to medium calibers?
      #32125 - 27/05/05 07:44 AM

In Taylor's book of African Rifles and Cartridges he gives short shrift indeed to the 400-360's. He has high praises for other cartridges in the same class. What's the diff? He claims the 400-360 did not suit. (I suspect it may have been due to poor bullets rather than the cartridge itself. It was an age when bullet performance was a bit spotty by today's standards.)

Today there is a dearth of information on the 400-360's. Yet I run across mention that they were Purdey's best selling caliber in the light to medium class for twenty or thirty years, even outselling the 303. Several makers chambered one variant or another.

I have seen a fair number of 400-360's on the market, including one single shot that had been refinished by the maker and had the deepest and most glorious case hardening colors by far that I have ever see. (I know the case coloring has nothing to do with the caliber, but this example was an order of magnitude above anything else I have ever seen, can't help mentiong it.)

So what leads to this situation?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: unspellable]
      #32140 - 27/05/05 10:27 AM

Unspellable:

It IS weird. I've wondered the same thing for years.

Hard to reconcile Taylor with the real world on this one. I think you're right, its primarily the bullets, but also false perception. Taylor was lavish in his praise for the .400/.350 and stated that it was the most popular medium bore in Africa prior to the .375 Magnum. He then dismissed the .400/.360s out of hand, yet the .400/.360s were, and are today, far more common than the .400/.350 ever was - at least with respect to double rifles.

The .400/.350 and the four flanged .400/.360s are, for any practical purpose, the same cartridge. The cartridge case of these five is identical, except for rim thickness which ranges from .045" to .065". Bullet diameter varies from .358" to .367", bullet weight from 289 to 314 grains, Cordite charge from 40 to 43 grains, and standard velocity from 1900 to 2000 fps. In other words, very slight proprietary variations, and nothing whatsoever to choose between. Wherefore Taylor?

The .400/.350 was a Rigby cartridge. Legend has it that Rigby demanded tougher bullets for the ammunition that they had Kynoch load for them. If this is true, and the others were loaded with the standard fare, it might explain the difference in the field that Taylor seems to have noticed. This perceived difference likely would have been magnified by Taylor's belief that the standard ballistics of the .400/.350 were much better than they actually were. He believed standard velocity was 2150 fps when it was actually 2000 fps.

I wonder if maybe most of the .400/.350s were single shots and slant box Mausers? Here in the states, .400/.350 doubles are extremely scarce. The .350 No. 2s are somewhat easier to find. Fifteen years ago .400/.360 doubles were downright common. I remember one dealer who had three Evans .400/.360 rifles at the same time and always seemed to have at least one in stock.

The supply is shrinking though. A couple of friends who recently shot my Evans .400/.360 are looking. We've found a few, but not like the old days. There's a lucrative market in Europe for pre-war British doubles in 9.3 X 74R (of which caliber the British made very, very few) for driven boar hunting. Seems some of the Europeans are not entirely content with 9.3s of Continental manufacture, especially so the Germans, I'm told. The Brits have capitalized on this by buying up .400/.360s and re-chambering them to 9.3 for the European market. Quite a few .400/.350 and .350 No. 2 rifles have also been re-bored and re-chambered. I have an inventory list that I picked up in London in 1992 from Paul Roberts at Rigby. He had six of these in stock at the time - 3 Rigbys (all formerly .350 No. 2s), 2 Evans and 1 Boswell (all previously .400/.360s).

One of my friends found an exceptionally nice Evans recently - in Paul Roberts' shop. Paul had bought it to convert and was surprised that someone wanted a .400/.360. Lovely rifle, serial number only 4 digits off mine. Paul wanted 10,000 pounds for it as is, and 12,000 after the conversion to 9.3. My friend wanted it badly, but the weak dollar made it impossible. It was re-chambered last week. What a pisser.
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mickey
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #32147 - 27/05/05 12:05 PM

The last time I visited Wilkes, about 10 years ago, they had a very nice little Lang that has been converted to 9.3. I was told that they were doing a lot of this as noone could get brass etc to load for the 400/360 anymore. It wouldn't shoot well though and they refused to sell it to me until they worked it out.

I got a letter about 6 months later telling me it was ready and to respond by a certain date if I still wanted it. The date was already past and when I called they said they had sold it.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: mickey]
      #32151 - 27/05/05 01:29 PM

Mick:

Do you remember what they wanted for the Lang? In '92, Roberts wanted 6,500 pounds for one of the Evans, and 6,000 for the other. Both of these were Webley boxlocks. Pound was a hair over $2.00 then.

Champlin's has an exceptional Lang .400/.360 in stock. Interesting rifle. Webley PHV-1with nice wood, engraving, non-ejector, chequered butt. Barreled up and proven about 1923-24 from the Webley serial number, certainly not later than 1925 as there is no case length mark. After that it must have laid around, in the white and unfinished, for 20+ years because the Lang serial number seems to be from 1946. That may help explain its current condition. It isn't redone and looks virtually unused. He wants 21k!
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #32152 - 27/05/05 01:50 PM

400

I think around $5500. I'm not sure but even at that I thought it was a bit steep. I bought a 400 Light Purdey from Greenfields on the same trip for $4500.

The Lang had a really net scope mount on it. A pillar that was inset into the rib. Similar to the Leupold Mounts but spring loaded instead of levers.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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unspellable
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: mickey]
      #32190 - 28/05/05 03:35 AM

So the 400-350 is the same basic case too. Brings up a gripe I've had for years, how come no brass? You can get 600 Nitro brass. For every 600 Nitro around there must be at least a hundred rifles in the 400-3xx class.

Bertram makes brass so labled, but you can't get it in the chamber with a mallet nor in the sizing die without a hydraulic press and you wouldn't get it out without tearing the rim off. (Unless the die split.)

Don't forget the 400-360 rimless. Still the same case. Known examples of the 400-360 rimless seem to be made up from a 400-360 rimmed case with the rim turned off in a lathe.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: unspellable]
      #32201 - 28/05/05 07:12 AM

Yeah, I still have two or three unused boxes of the Bertram .400/.360 Purdey, less a few rounds that I pulled the rims off of. The cases of the .400/.350 and the .400/.360 Purdey are supposed to be identical, but they're not as made by Bertram. The base diameter of the .400/.360 stuff is grossly oversized and will not work, but the .400/.350 Bertram is correct and works fine in .400/.360 Purdey rifles. Doesn't last long though.

Horneber makes .400/.360 Purdey brass, or used to. I have some of it, but don't use it. Too easy to make it out of RWS 9.3 and you can't kill that stuff. It lasts forever.

Yes, the .400/.360 Westley Richards Rimless is merely the flanged round with the rim milled off and an extractor groove cut. I limited my comments to the flanged rounds.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #32212 - 28/05/05 02:11 PM

This maybe off-topic for the discussion but not the title. If so I can shift it somewhere else.

But when discussing light and medium calibres in double rifles, does anyone see any real benefit in going below the .350/.360/9.3 and maybe even .375 class of double to say a 7mm, .30, 8mm etc ?

I think the .318s and .333s with the heavy bullet loadings are also a 9.3mm anyway.

The smaller calibres are certainly nice, but do they do anything a medium calibre doesn't do better?

My main view on the most popular uses for doubles on medium game is hunting in close cover or running game. Surely a 9.3 - 286 gr or .318 - 250 gr or similar, is better for this than any 6.5 or 7mm ?

A discussion point of view.



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John aka NitroX

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500grains
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: NitroX]
      #32219 - 28/05/05 03:36 PM

Actually I was thinking that very thing. I cannot see any reason to go below a 9.3 x 74R or a 360 no. 2 because those calibers do not kick much and the rifles are slim and maneuverable. Sure a vintage .303 sidelock would be a fun toy, but if given the choice I would take a little more bore diameter.

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500Nitro
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: NitroX]
      #32223 - 28/05/05 09:10 PM


NitroX,

Good subject / topic.

In terms of how we look at doubles - DG and the like - yes, I agree with you.

Small / Light doubles are fun to shoot with and good fun to carry around
but you do lose that long range ability.

We must remeber the reason light doubles were made - for taking deer and
for the more well heeled driven boar in Europe.

My William Horton was sold using an avert with a deer target as were quite a few
other guns of the time.

500 Nitro

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: NitroX]
      #32230 - 28/05/05 10:21 PM

NitroX,

Your view is too utilitarian!

For as long as I can remember, the bolt gun mongers have argued ad nauseum about what is the best "all-around" caliber in any given cartridge class without resolving the issue.

Think of all the articles and arguments of whether the .30-30 is the "best" woods gun. They decided nothing.

The best light to medium caliber DR is that which most pleases its owner.

Undeniably the 9.3x74R is a fine caliber, and there are thousands of fine DR's chambered for it. On the other hand, some of the finest and most pleasing DR's I have encountered are chambered in such calibers as 9x57R, 8x57JR, 8x57JRS, 7x57R, 7x65R, and even various heretical rimless calibers. These rifles, when built by the more skilled artisans, are absolutely unequalled in fit, balance, and artistic appeal. Usually found with a claw-mounted scope, they weigh in at 7 1/2 to 9 pounds and are a joy to carry and shoot. They all kill effectively when in the hands of a skilled shooter.

Again, I emphasize, the best light to medium caliber DR is that which most pleases its owner. The choice is not just the caliber, but the entire package.

I've been gone from the forum for the last couple of weeks on a bear hunt in northern British Columbia in the vicinity of Telegraph Creek hunting with my "light to medium caliber" DR. I originally intended to take my 9.3, but its vintage scope came loose from the base during my preparatory shooting. It is now in the shop for repairs to the original Zeiss scope (re-solder the mounts to the scope tube) and to mount a brand new Leupold 1.5-5 VXIII in claws to fit the same claw bases, which will give me a modern fog-proof scope to use on my nearly 100 year old rifle, with no alterations.

Fortunatly for me, when the mount on the 9.3 failed I could reach into my gun box and pull out my J. Winkler double in .300 Win. Mag., which I had considered taking anyway. My load for it is the 220 grain Hornady round nose. you might argue that this is the functional equivalent to the 9.3. Up close that is virtually true, but I believe the .300 will reach out a little further. The bears would agree with you. They didn't know the difference.

Best regards,
Curl






--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
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Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: CptCurl]
      #32240 - 28/05/05 11:58 PM

Great pictures Curl!!!!

Glad the 300 worked out for you!

I have some excellent bear recipes if you need any!

Back to the actual topic... I have to agree with Curl. After hunting in Europe and meeting driven game hunters (en battue) most seem to prefer the smaller DR calibres the 7x65r and the 8mm to the 9.3x74r. The smaller calibres have less recoil so they feel they can get that second shot off sooner than with the 9.3. Also, many driven hunts can be after roe deer which are quite small so some feel that the "smaller" calibres are better for smaller game. Not sure I agree with that since I thinka big slow bullet will do less meat damage on a small deer than a small but very fast bullet, but to each their own.

So in short there is a large demand and use for smaller calibre double rifles.

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mickey
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: CptCurl]
      #32249 - 29/05/05 02:03 AM

Curl

Congratulations on your hunt. It is always good to have a back up plan. Where did you send your rifle for the claw mount repairs? I need another set of rings for my 9.3 that are in 1".

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: CptCurl]
      #32252 - 29/05/05 02:11 AM

CaptCurl

When I oneday get a nice SS in 8x60S or a 6.5x57 or something in between and it handles like a svelte blonde on the dance floor I may just change my opinion .




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: NitroX]
      #32274 - 29/05/05 04:18 AM

Nitro,

When you do get one, don't tell anybody. Those rifles are the best kept secret of all. If all these guys with elephant thumpers start lusting after small bores, that will leave fewer for us good guys.

Micky,

I sent you a PM.

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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400NitroExpress
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: NitroX]
      #32285 - 29/05/05 09:04 AM

NitroX:

It depends on intended use, of course. The choice for me depends more on weight than caliber. Mediums like .400/.350 and .400/.360 work perfectly for the range of game that a .275 or .303 double would be suitable for, and then some. Also, too many small bore and medium doubles are as heavy as a typical rifle in the .450/.400 to .470 group.

The .360 No. 2 is wonderful. However, excepting the rare "lightweight" models, the rifles are dependably 10-10.5 lbs. Likewise most .333s and WR .318 rimless. Hell with that!

Some of the small bores are just as bad. Recently saw a nice .280 Flanged - 10.5 lbs without scope. Quite a few .303s were built at a nice weight of 8 lbs or so, but some were 9lbs, heavier than my .400/.360.

Nothing wrong with the small bore doubles, as long as they are built to an appropriate weight, likewise the mediums.
-----------------------------------------------------



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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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4seventy
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: unspellable]
      #32308 - 29/05/05 06:05 PM

In reply to:

In Taylor's book of African Rifles and Cartridges he gives short shrift indeed to the 400-360's. He has high praises for other cartridges in the same class. What's the diff? He claims the 400-360 did not suit



Taylor did not have access to a chronograph so I guess he relied on quoted catologue ballistics.

If you were to use the ICI data for the 400-360 with 314 grain bullet it quotes 1900 fps and 2520 ft lbs energy.

The Nobel catalogue from the same era claims the 400-350 Rigby pushed a 310 grain bullet at 2150 fps for 3178 ft lbs energy!

Perhaps the big difference in claimed velocity and energy favouring the 400-350 Rigby could have influenced Taylors comments.



Edited by 4seventy (29/05/05 06:45 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: 4seventy]
      #32310 - 29/05/05 07:20 PM


4seventy

The typical "Blue Sky" from the early catalogues !!!

Though it is a very valid point you make.

There were also alot of 400-360's as well with different bullet weights.

Also, Rigby change the 400-350 Rigby to the smaller bullets to get more velocity
since that's the way the market seemed to be going so again, different specs.

500 Nitro

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Henrik
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32392 - 30/05/05 07:23 PM

Helo Gents,
I'm one of thoose europeans who uses a double gun as my prefered choice for driven game. I have owned a couple of doubles in 9.3x74R and they are wonderful for their intended purpose. But I have just taken delivery of a wonderful little Merkel 141 in 8x57 JRS and this is love at first sight for me!! In bolt actions 8x57 has already proven itself on all kinds of european game from mooses to roedeer and everything in between, the 8x57 JRS is basically the same thing but in a double gun package.

This is a very light gun which handles like a dream (for me), it weighs about 3.0 kg (3.5kg with a scope). This gun is based on a 28 cal sized action. I did try it in 9.3x74R before buying 8x57JRS and the reason I choose the smaller of the two chamberings is the muzzleflip (which is substansial in 9.3x74R) in other words my second shot is quicker and more accurate in 8x57 JRS.

In my opinion it's like comparing 375 H&H to 30-06 in bolt actions. Rifles in 375H&H are generally a bit heavier and bigger, where as 30-06 comes in a smaller package (most of the times).

I'm still a very big fan of the 9.3x74R but in a smaller gun it might be a bit much, a lot of the 9.3x74R that I have seen or used have a weight of around 3.5 kg which is a perfect match for that chambering. But for my new gun I was looking for something a bit lighter and for me that meant going down in calibre as well. I intend to use this gun solely for european game, and for that I think that 8x57 JRS will be "enough gun"

I'm sorry for the bad english, but then english is my third language

Regards,
Henrik

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: Henrik]
      #32393 - 30/05/05 07:26 PM

Henrik

Your English is fine. Interesting comments.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (30/05/05 07:27 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: NitroX]
      #32403 - 30/05/05 10:33 PM

An oft-overlooked reason for owning small-bore doubles is that British examples at least are invariably cute as hell!

This is one of my favourites, but the current owner simply won't sell (Bastard!). Ol'mate K_ had an even better .32-40 double by Westley Richards, unfortunately I was only 27th-in-line when he passed it on! Certainly no .360, but its a great cartridge for a real light-weight double, and Kynoch loaded it for decades.





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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Henrik
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: NitroX]
      #32405 - 30/05/05 11:33 PM

Thank you NitroX,
in Europe you will see two very different views and types of doubles.

The british guns which primarily are seen as guns for dangerous game and it will be a safe bet to say that these guns where never intended to be used on any game in the british isles. But back in the days when then never set on the british empire there was plenty of opportinities for the british hunter/officer/gentleman to hunt dangerous game in different parts of the empire.
But when the empire started to shrink and there where less opportunities to hunt dangerous game, these kind of double guns started to lose there market share. These guns are perfectly suítuated if you are going after beasts that might bite back under the african (or australian or indian)sun. But they where never intended for European game (of course I'm not saying that they cannot be used on european game). There has always been and always be a certain nostalgia surronding these guns.

The continental european double gun on the other hand has always been made primarily for european game (I am fully aware of all the exceptions to this rule). Here we are talking og guns that has been chambered for chamberings like 7x57R, 7x65R, 8x57 (jr or jrs), 8x60 rs and 9x74R among others. All these chamberings are fully adequate for game like moose, deer and boars of any kind.
My point here is that continental DG sort of ends at 9.3x74R which is the starting point for the british DG (as in 400/360).
There's a lot of really nice continental DG from places like Germany, Belgium and France, and they are often chambered for something smaller then 9.3x74R and the are often scoped as well
I suspect that the one place in the world where you are most likely to see someone use a DG of any sort would be on a driven hunt in continental europe...And a very substansial amount of these guns would chambered in something like 8x57 jrs or 7x65R...

After all this is said is still think that there's something special about a big bore british DG

Regards,
Henrik

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: unspellable]
      #32406 - 30/05/05 11:48 PM

Just browsing around this morning I came upon this 400/360 by Westley Richards. A nice rifle, but $30k US - Jeez!

WR 400/360 Droplock

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500grains
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: CptCurl]
      #32409 - 31/05/05 12:06 AM



I almost cried!

What kind of inbred hillbilly would grind off the scroll eengraving and scratch a grizzly bear into the bottom of the rreceiver of a Westley Richards?

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mickey
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Re: The light to medium calibers? [Re: 500grains]
      #32416 - 31/05/05 01:18 AM

In reply to:

I almost cried!

What kind of inbred hillbilly would grind off the scroll eengraving and scratch a grizzly bear into the bottom of the rreceiver of a Westley Richards?



At first I thought it was a fat cow Moose with short legs. You are right in your descripition fo the perpetrator.

They are certainly proud of their guns aren't they. With the engraving ruined I wouldn't go over $15k for the rifle.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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