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For information I own a M. 1924 in 7x64; this rifle bears:
- The Austrian Vienna proof marking NPv as well as the xxxx.28 (1928) factory number, so definitely pre-Anschluss.
- However it is also marked 'Made in Germany', '39', and 'Waffenfabrik Steyr' , all post-Anschluss markings.
So I assume this rifle was produced at Steyr in 1928 but was not proofed until 1939, hence the existence of both pre and post-Anschluss markings. Louis

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Louis;

Is there any evidence of your M1924 ever having been stamped 'SEQUOIA'?

It has been my understanding that the original run of (quantities vary per source of information) MS rifles and carbines with the longer 'High Velocity' action were made as the M1924 in .30-'06 for export to the U.S. (Sequoia Importing Co.) and that unsold examples went back to Steyr, many to be rebarreled and chambered for cartridges more popular in Europe at the time.



Also, does the front sight on your M1908 show any sign of having been relocated, or does it appear as if the 'set back' is original?

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Anyway welcome to the Mannlicher Schoenauer maize!

Louis

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Boy, that is an understatement!

It seems the plot thickens somewhat.....here is the action rollmark:



According to your comments, this indicates a pre 1924 manufactured action. If so, this thing may have lain around the Steyr plant for many years before being put together and marketed. Or, maybe it was brought back into the plant, partially scrubbed, remarked, and rebuilt. Seems to be getting curiouser and curiouser.

Not that I am overly worried about it. This thing is dripping with cool factor, accurate beyond my expectations, and a pure joy to carry and shoot. I am looking forward to hunting season this Fall.

If I may, I wonder if any of you could give an opinion about the velocities I'm getting with it. My handloads all seem to be slower than what the limited load data indicates I should be getting. Top powder charges clock under 2100 fps with 160 gr RN and about 2150 fps +/- with 140 gr spire points. These velocities will certainly work on game and they are quite accurate in my rifle, but don't approach expected speeds.

Two weekends ago, I got quite a deal on a stash of Norma ammo from, I think, the 70s or so. The 156 gr RN clocked 2325 fps and the 139 gr pointed stuff did 2290 fps. The 156 gr was so high I asked Norma if they thought this ammo might have gone bad. The question was forwarded on to Sweden from Norma USA and the answer has not gotten back to me as yet. For those of you into such things, what sort of velocities are you getting? I have no intention of stressing this little gem, but do intend to hunt with it. A higher velocity would help trajectory to some degree.

Last question, is it proper to refer to this stutzen as a '1903' even if it is not so marked?

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Last question, is it proper to refer to this stutzen as a '1903' even if it is not so marked?

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Last question, is it proper to refer to this stutzen as a '1903' even if it is not so marked?

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According the truth that yours rifle has pre-WWII shorter action with original caliber 6,5x54 I can´t see any reason why not. These model 1903 markings has just milled away when installing this fore mount for scope.

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What he said, exactly.^

And "stutzen" is proper, indeed, in reference to the full stocked carbine.

I think you're fortunate to have a MS with such an interesting 'backstory'. Decoding her mysteries adds to the experience and satisfaction of ownership, no? An MS is not only one of the finest production sporting arms ever made, but yours is also dripping with history of the 'Anschluss'. If it was at the factory during the war, it may be a survivor of the allied bombings of Feb. 23-24, 1944.

It is truly a 'conversation piece'.

Q: Is it prewar or postwar?
A: Well, let me tell 'ya... .

Read the note beneath this image of DWM 477 from the 1939 Stoeger catalog;

This is why your 'Kal 6.5' is also marked 'C 6.7', as the measurements of metric cartridges was rather inconsistent prior to WW2. Some references measure lands, some grooves. Some measure case length from the base, some to top of case rim (6.5X54 to base = 6.5X53 to rim). The 9.5X57 has many names.

This may be helpful to know as you're searching for load data.

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If I may, I wonder if any of you could give an opinion about the velocities I'm getting with it. My handloads all seem to be slower than what the limited load data indicates I should be getting. Top powder charges clock under 2100 fps with 160 gr RN and about 2150 fps +/- with 140 gr spire points. These velocities will certainly work on game and they are quite accurate in my rifle, but don't approach expected speeds.

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Some 6.5 MS ballistics data (factory loads) from the 1939 Stoeger:

From DWM -












And this -




The muzzle velocities listed on the 'English' chart are faster than what you have reported.

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Rothhammer, some belated replies to your questions :

M1908. The set back front sight looks original ;

M1924. My 7x64 does not bear any sign of having previously been a Sequoia 30-06, see the below photos. In fact I might be wrong when calling it M1924 in case this would only apply to Sequoia models, but until now I have called M1924 all models manufactured from 1924 in high velocity non MS-owned commercial calibers. Louis

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I realized after posting that if your M1924 had been stamped 'SEQUOIA' originally but later rebarrelled, there would be no way to tell. The 'SEQUOIA' stamping would have been on the barrel itself.

Some references refer to the longer action MS's (other than the original .30-'06 M1924 'Sequoia') as M1924/25, M1925, or simply as 'High Velocity'.

web page

Stoeger seems to have listed everything MS over 41" overall length as 'High Velocity' in 1939, but they also had dropped the MS designations of M1903, 05, 08, 10. The 'High Velocity' rifles listed are all of the longer action (.30-'06, 7X64, 8X60, 9.3X62, and the coveted 10.75X68), but among the 'carbines' can also be found the .30-'06 and 7X57):

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What can you tell us about the 'double headed eagle' proof on the barrel of the OP's MS?

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What can you tell us about the 'double headed eagle' proof on the barrel of the OP's MS?

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This eagle for primary proof was used only for a short time, from 1938 to 1940. After the "Anschluss" it replaced the single headed eagle with hammer and sickle in the claws, the symbol of the 1918 - 1938 Austrian republic. From 1940 to 45 the Vienna, Ferlach and Weipert proofhouses used the then new German proofmarks.

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What is your best guess of when the original poster's rifle left the Steyr factory?

Would it likely have been 1939?

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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What is your best guess of when the original poster's rifle left the Steyr factory?

Would it likely have been 1939?

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Obviously the factory claimed velocities are in the 2300+ fps range for the 160 gr RN. Velocity exaggerations were the norm here in the states until chronographs began appearing in everyone's range bag. Was the same true in Europe or were these velocities real world?

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Kuduae, thank you very much for making clear the difference between M1924 and M1925 models. Louis

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I always enjoy thumbing through old catalogs, but when the pages are about guns/hunting/outdoor stuff, it is even mobetter (South Alabama term).

I have been saving these pages to the file on my computer that contains all things Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

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I have been saving these pages to the file on my computer that contains all things Mannlicher-Schoenauer.

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Here are pages 50-52 of the 1939 Stoeger catalog, complete:






--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Or, it could be that they were just rounding to the nearest inch of length.

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Roth, it's pretty neat that you are sharing pages from the 1939 catalog since that is the year of manufacture of my 1903. That makes those pages especially 'collectible' to me.

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Well, I believe you're going to like this, then.

These are the relevant pages from the '39 Stoeger (scanned at 400dpi). Nitrox had to go back and retrieve the images after Photobomb did their thing a while back (click link below):

Stoeger 1939


I started to scan the entire catalog at 1200dpi, which I will share with Nitrox as a permanent archive. It's a 'round tuit' just now.

Ebay has been my source for '39 Stoeger catalogs. Check them out now and again and you may get lucky. I bought one for about $30 delivered with the intent of 'disassembling' it for scans, thought it was too nice to cut up and bought another for about $25 (just about as 'nice' as the first). I have since bought another just because it was in even better condition and cost about $20 USD.

Make sure they're originals, though. There have been reproductions printed on 'newsprint' paper which browns and turns brittle. Also, anything from Cornell Publications is a cheap, low quality 'reproduction'.

This is an original cover and spine:



The reprint:



This original is on Ebay now for $35.95 delivered:
Ebay

Here's a '34 at a good price, but it looks a bit 'rough around the edges':
1934 Stoeger

If you (or anyone) would like to see scans of any page of the '39 Stoeger (a particular firearm, load data, accoutrements...), let me know and I'll gladly post them.


Enjoy!

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kuduae, you are an ENABLER! 1939 catalog above is now on it's way to my casa. Don't know if I'll get $36 worth of enjoyment from it, but I'm certainly going to find out!
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You're 'blaming' the wrong guy... I was the culprit.

I have no doubt you'll get your $36 worth many times over. The '39 edition has 512 pages with all kinds of good stuff.


Did you check out the linked post?:

MS in 39 Stoeger

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