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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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mickey
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Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles.
      #30434 - 03/05/05 01:07 PM

Who is the best builder of Double Rifles in the World? Price is no object, just craftsmanship?

I'll throw out Peter V. Nelson as a nominee.

--------------------
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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: mickey]
      #30449 - 03/05/05 09:49 PM

Purdey thinks they are, judgeing by their prices! I have a different opinion, however! I don't think it gets much better than Westley Richards! Just one man's opinion!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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500Nitro
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #30452 - 03/05/05 10:51 PM


IMHO, Holland & Holland

500 Nitro

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new_guy
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30473 - 04/05/05 02:28 AM

FWIW -

I've had this conversation with several dealers and the concensus is as follows. Most "best gun" makers put 1000-1200 man hours in a sidelock gun and build it to that point to maintain profitibility.

There are a few makers which say they build a gun with no limit on the number of man hours (at least they claim more than 1200) and I have to agree that the quality is commnesurate with that statement.

Peter Nelson
Hartman & Weiss
F.lli Rizzini
Fabbri


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nitro476
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: mickey]
      #30474 - 04/05/05 03:23 AM

Do to the fact that a lot of the current English firms use the same craftsmen, I think it is a toss up. I would prefer a David McKay Brown personally but certainly any of the other makers would be fine as well. I am not a big Holland fan but that is my opinion. If I were to have a shotgun built, Fabbri would be my first choice hands down. The only problem I have personally with the makers in Europe is the interior finish work on the locks and other details that are rarely seen. The English seem to really go all out in the fit and finish department and that is what you are paying the big money for. Just my opinion.

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500Nitro
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: new_guy]
      #30475 - 04/05/05 03:30 AM


new_guy

Now Hartman & Weiss is a name you don't see crop up very often.

Interestng. I have seen a fw rifles (bolt actions) made by them. Very nice.

I haven't had any experience with Peter Nelson.

500 Nitro

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new_guy
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30478 - 04/05/05 05:09 AM

In reply to:

Now Hartman & Weiss is a name you don't see crop up very often.

True.

I've never seen a H&W double (shotgun or rifle)for sale. The story goes that H&W is the primary purchaser of used H&W guns.

As thier quility continues to improve, they don't want any earlier guns on the used market, thus reflecting on the quiality of the newer guns. I suspect (that if you've got the money) that's a good way to keep your prices propped up.

Hey, that's just what i've been told by dealers. But then again, I've never seen a used one.

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500Nitro
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: new_guy]
      #30480 - 04/05/05 05:25 AM


You are correct - I haven't seen a H&W Double Rifle or Shotgun.

Has anyone seen a H&W Double Rifle or Shotgun.


500 Nitro

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577Robert
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30511 - 04/05/05 09:41 PM

500 Nitro,
I have seen and handled a few, but all at the Hartmann &Weiss facility in Hamburg. In the past 10 years, I visit them regularly, at least once a year. The guns which I handled include over and under ( boss action ) guns, side by side guns, and a few side by side rifles. As far as I remember I handled DB rifles in .375 H&H, 500 N.E., 577 N.E. and a .600 N.E. Because they have their own shooting range build in house ( in the basement ) I also got the opportunity to shoot their .577 N.E. once, with a couple of rounds.
At my visits, Hartmann & Weiss most always has some British guns and rifles available for selling, so you can judge and compare them on the quality side by side.
I do not want to start a flaming, but I can clearly say that on the H&H rifles what I was able to inspect there is a quality difference even between old H&H side by side rifles and newly build in favour to the old ones. ( I am not talking about engraving, but gaps between wood and steel and so on ). The most disappointing rifle was just recently build, one of a pair Holland & Holland build 577 Rewa's. The visible gap between the side look and the frame on the left side could hold a toothpick!
I have never seen something like that on any of the Hartmann & Weiss guns or rifles which I handled in all the years.
Yes, it is very difficult to find a second hand double from Hartmann & Weiss. But if you think about the amount of shotguns and double rifles being build in a year and compared those to the amount of bolt action and falling block action rifle build in a year in the Hartmann & Weiss shop, you may find this as the reason for the very limited second hand double guns and double rifles available. All others like bolt or falling block actions you will find if you look carefully also second handed.
Again this is just my opinion, but for those who have doubts about the sidelock gap at the H&H I have pictures available.
Robert

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new_guy
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: 577Robert]
      #30518 - 05/05/05 12:05 AM

577Robert - thanks for the input. I don't doubt one bit that a new H&W is better fit than a new H&H.

Next time you're by there - ask them about them buying used guns of thier own making. I found that interesting and would like to know if there is any truth to that rumor.

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Morten
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: new_guy]
      #30523 - 05/05/05 01:08 AM

I don't doubt one bit that a new H&W is better fit than a new H&H.


Thats of course because one of Hartmann or Weiss are former Purdey craftsmen!!

P.V.Nelson are also a former Purdey man before he joined H&W. but operates now under his own name and make his own guns. It is said that he may be the best gunmaker of al time. I think thats a good question. Who is the best gunmaker, read craftsman. Is is the Lawrence brother from Purdey or is it John Robertson from Boss. or is it somebody else. I have seen some great New purdey doubles and they are fabules. I have also seen a almost finished Holland rifle with an deep engraved elephant on the underside of the actions, where the foots were totaly out of propsions. But they also had a Brown brothers deep engraved gun with some gold and asian sheep on. That was mindblowing. But this was not about engraving.

I can not judge who of them that is best but if I had the money I know where I would go.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: mickey]
      #30527 - 05/05/05 02:01 AM


In the old days, Greener were a very highly regarded company and while they made high grade boxlocks, their Facile Princeps action was definitely the strongest break-open design ever made. They have recently reintroduced the Facile Princeps with more modern steels. They should be the strongest and most durable double rifles again.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

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500Nitro
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #30529 - 05/05/05 02:55 AM


Very interesting about H&W.

When I said H&H, I was thinking about the superb guns they made Pre WWII.
I think with all the English makers, the quality dropped off after this period.

Interestingly, the orld Wide auctions are a good representative of
what guns have been made. I haven't seen any H&W go through the Auctions
so they must control the 2nd hand market to some extent.

500 Nitro

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: Morten]
      #30542 - 05/05/05 09:30 AM

I have had this discussion with my friend Morten on another forum about the strength of Purdey's Bar Action Sidelock design - John Olin and The American Rifleman jointly fired a Winchester 21, a Purdey Best gun and an AYA shotgun to destruction in the 1960s and the Winchester took 225,000 rounds more than the Purdey (and 100,000 more than the AYA, I think) did before it broke down. Olin said, in his conclusion, that a BEst Purdey was not a gun meant for the kind of pounding with overloads that he gave it, but if we look at the fact that he owned Winchester at the time, it is clear why he did not choose the Back Actioned Holland and Holland sidelock design - that is a considerably stronger action than the Purdey is and the Winchester would definitely not have come out as a winner had he compared a Holland to it. And yes, this was a test of shotguns, but the action designs are the same (albeit with altered dimensions to make them stronger) as those used in double rifles. Purdey's shotguns are regarded among the best because the bar action sidelock gives excellent trigger operation.

Frankly, it would not make a difference as far as the working of a best gun is concerned no matter who made it, in my very humble opinion. People might have individual preferences and the best rifle is the one that you would like to own most!

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30543 - 05/05/05 10:41 AM

500

I apologize for the confusion but that is what I meant.

Who is the Best Gunmaker of Double Rifles from a craftsmanship standpoint. In a couple of hundred years, when all of the Double rifles are gathered in a Museum. Whose body of work will be judged the Best of the Best?

If the opinon is Purdey or another long lived company can we pick a period that represents their highest quality output. How would that period stack up agaist the smaller makers who only produced for a much shorter time.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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JPK
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #30555 - 05/05/05 01:26 PM

By far the most "common" H&H shotgun action I've seen has been the bar action type. The most "common" H&H rifle type I've seen is a back action type. Purdey guns are also bar action, with the self opening feature relying on the main spring and taking the tension off the mainspring when the gun is diassemblrd.

In the following comment keep in mind that recoil effects the gun as well as the shooter and that heavier guns both suffer less from recoil and also can be built stronger to tolerate more recoil simply because the can contain more material either steel or wood.

I don't doubt that an English best game gun would come appart before a 21. This shouldn't suprise anyone since most English guns are built for what most Americans consider light loads. Std English 12ga feild load is 1 1/16oz. You don't swing or hump around the extra one or two pounds of a gun built to handle heavier loads though. If you want a gun to handle what amounts to English pidgeon loads buy the pidgeon gun and not the game gun. the game gun will weigh about 6 1/2lbs to 6 3/4lbs and the pidgeon gun 7 1/4 or more.

The English believed in the Rule of 96 which states that the gun should weigh 96 times the shot charge or so. 1 1/16 oz times 96 equals 6lbs 6oz. 1 1/8oz times 96 equals 6lbs 12oz. The std pidgeon load of 1 1/4oz times 96 equals seven and a half pounds or roughly the weight of the average model 21.

I've never seen or handled a model 21 that could be called sleek or svelte or quick, most are simply overweight. The std gun is heavy, the duck guns ponderous; on occasion you run into a 21 that is reasonably light but it ussually has short barrels and the balance and handling issues associated with them. They ought to withstand the heavier shot loads.

Is the back action stonger? Yes. Is it stronger than the bar action or the box lock? Yes. Stronger than the round trigger plate action? Maybe not. Is any of them strong enough? YES!

But keep in mind that all English guns and rifles are built with the idea that the gun or rifle will be back to the maker for maintenance on a regular if not yearly basis; so the guns could be built lighter and yet last longer; ditto for the rifles.

JPK

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new_guy
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: JPK]
      #30557 - 05/05/05 01:42 PM

Comparing a model 21 to a best gun is like comparing a skid-loader to a porsche. Yes, both have 4-wheels, but they are two completely different animals both in design and intended use.

In reply to:

I've never seen or handled a model 21 that could be called sleek or svelte or quick, most are simply overweight.

AMEN!

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mickey
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: new_guy]
      #30560 - 05/05/05 02:07 PM

So are we eliminating Winchester from the competion?

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: JPK]
      #30564 - 05/05/05 02:38 PM

JPK,

From your post: "By far the most "common" H&H shotgun action I've seen has been the bar action type. The most "common" H&H rifle type I've seen is a back action type."

The following excerpt is from a long description of guns made by Holland and Holland on the Internet Gun Club's fantastic website:

"In 1934 the No. 3 Back-action Hammerless Gun was re-named the "Dominion" (after 1949 it was re-named the "Commonwealth" and continued in production up to the 1960s)."

Note the period that I have posted about, when John Olin owned Winchester. It was not without reason that he did not test a Holland against his model 21 and chose a Purdey instead.

Good hunting!



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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JeffWemmer470
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #30597 - 06/05/05 12:25 AM

All,

Getting back to what would be the "Best" double rifle:

My vote is a tie:

Overall "BEST" Classic:

Holland and Holland "Royal", or Rigby sidelock (with the 3rd rising bite) MUST be from between the wars especially if they are chambered in either 470, or, .577 NE. These are the best I've seen and are bringing the most money these days. These are literally works of art and were made at a level of fit, finish and consistency that no other makers have ever been able to duplicate on a fairly large scale.

Honorable mentions: LeBeau Courally, Purdey

Overall "BEST" for modern guns:

1) David MaKay Brown
2) Hartmann & Weiss

Honorable mention: Westley Richards

Rare, exquisite, accurate, beat the big names for fit, finish, accuracy nowadays.

Best in "Shooter class: (great guns that are excellent values for the $$:

1) Searcy Boxlock: PH and Deluxe models
2) Krieghoff boxlocks

Honorable mention: Chaupis and Merkel

These are excellent guns at very reasonable prices and have rock-solid reputations.

Of course there are a ton of other brands out there - lots of great ones. My choices are based largely on personal experiences / opinions of those that I know that deal / hunt with these guns.

Debate welcomed and encouraged.

Jeff

Edited by NitroX: post shifted to correct thread

Edited by NitroX (06/05/05 12:27 AM)

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Rell
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: mickey]
      #30658 - 07/05/05 12:03 AM

I have not handled that many double rifles, maybe 60-70, but I do live in New York and stop by the H&H boutique quite often. I believe that the best double I've ever handled; balance, fit and finish, quality of engraving, wood and over all esthetics was a ... searcy presidential grade.

I know all the pre war english fans are going to think I'm a bumkin, but that's the DR that stands out in my mind as the best I've ever handled.



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450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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500Nitro
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: Rell]
      #30660 - 07/05/05 12:31 AM


rell

"I believe that the best double I've ever handled; balance, fit and finish,
quality of engraving, wood and over all esthetics was a ... searcy presidential grade."

That's why double rifles create so much discussion, argument etc, etc.

Each person has their own opinion and that is what makes it so interesting.

Since I haven't handled a Searcy Presentation grade, I can't comment !!!


500 Nitro

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JeffWemmer470
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30669 - 07/05/05 02:15 AM

Rell,

I would not doubt that Butch's Pres. grade is awesome!

As for the balance of that weapon - Guarantee it's on - Butch Searcy shoots doubles more than any other maker currently building DRs!


Did you get a look at that Rigby they have??


JW

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NE450No2
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: JeffWemmer470]
      #30688 - 07/05/05 07:30 AM

I must say the BEST double rifles I have handled are the British doubles made by what some people might call the "second tier" of double rifle builders, such as Jeffery, Evans, Gibbs, Hollis, Lang etc. In fact the Army & Navy [made by Webley & Scott, are as good as ANY].
I much prefer these rifles to Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, and Purdy. I am not talking from a "money, value" since, but from a hunting/shooting/using sense.

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vigillinus
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Re: Who is the BEST builder of Double Rifles. [Re: NE450No2]
      #30784 - 09/05/05 03:09 PM

May 18 London Christie's is selling two H&W rifles, a falling block with two barrels 5.6x57R and 7x65R, and a Mauser .243. Estimates $31g-47g and $12-25g respectively. Nasty gold inlay, done later, on the falling block.

My own nomination for best double rifle, hands down the interwar Westley Richards with detachable boxlocks.

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