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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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wadeb
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Oregon, USA
H-4350 in .500 N.E.
      #29922 - 23/04/05 09:58 AM

.500 Grains, did you try that load that Cptcurl gave you? If you did, then please let us know how it went. If you have not then Cptcurl, could you please let us know what kind of groups you got and what was different in your rifle with this powder compared to rel-15?

Once again, I thank you for all of your input on this web-site as it has really helped me alot.

wadeb

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: wadeb]
      #29924 - 23/04/05 10:59 AM

wadeb,

This is the typical group I get with my load, assuming I do my job. This is a 50 yd group. I know it is as good as I can do with open sights and such a brute of a rifle. The rifle and load probably will do better with a shooter who has better eyes and a more steady nerve. Still, it is no more than 2" and good enough to do what it is intended to do.

I claim no stock in this load. It is the load recommended by Graeme Wright, except for the substitution of H4350 for IMR4350.

Good luck, and let us know how it works for you.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: wadeb]
      #29925 - 23/04/05 11:14 AM

Wade, I loaded a couple of rounds with that load to try this weekend so see if it is close to regulating or not. If it is close to regulating, then I will try to fine tune it.

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wadeb
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Oregon, USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: CptCurl]
      #29928 - 23/04/05 12:28 PM

Thank you guys for replying. Don't worry, I take responsibility for my own actions with regards to loads etc. that I read on this post. CptCurl, that is a great group. How was RL-15 doing compared to this with regards to left and right barrel groups? I find good barrel groups but the left seems to be two inches to the right of the right group. My speeds are the same as what it is regulated with.(IMR-4831). I have tried lower RL-15 charges and the groups are even worse, not to mention the velocity.

500grains, I am looking forward to your results with this load.

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wadeb
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Oregon, USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: wadeb]
      #29929 - 23/04/05 12:46 PM

Sorry, I was thinking about your group size and that is what I want. My groups with Rl-15 94gr solids are between three and four inches with, like I said the lefts to the right of the rights. I slowed the speeds down but that seemed to make it worse. I know that I can always go back to IMR-4831 but I'd like to try the other powders and see what happens.

Thanks,

Wadeb

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510Wells
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Gold Bar, Wa.
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: wadeb]
      #29930 - 23/04/05 01:56 PM

Wade,

As I understand it if the shots from the two barrels are crossing too early you should (generally speaking of course) increase the velocity to spread the point(s) of impact apart.

Sounds like your going the wrong way.

Roi

--------------------
The only constant is change.

Member DRSS

Edited by 510Wells (23/04/05 01:58 PM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
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Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 510Wells]
      #29940 - 23/04/05 08:21 PM

If individual barrel groups are crossing it indicates too high velocity or too light a bullet. Increasing the velocity will only make the barrels cross more. Wade is going the right way, but it sounds like R15 is not for his rifle.

Each rifle seems to have its own preferences. For instance, my friend bought a Merkel .500 NE at the same time I did. We ordered them together. His rifle crosses with my load, and he was unable to find a suitable load with H4350. He found success with IMR4831.

Stick with the slower powders - H4350 or IMR4831. In my experience you will achieve better and safer results.

You only need one good load. Find it and stick with it.

Good luck,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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chrispie
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Reged: 30/01/04
Posts: 67
Loc: New England, USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: CptCurl]
      #29945 - 24/04/05 12:53 AM

cptcurl, what was the load you used with IMR4831,thanks

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: chrispie]
      #29953 - 24/04/05 03:40 AM

chrispie,

I did not use IMR4831 in my .500NE. That was a friend who developed a load using that powder. He doesn't post here, and I don't remember what his load was. If I remember to ask him the next time I see him, I will report it.

In his book, Grame Wright suggests that 4350 may be the better choice in the .500NE. See page 61 of the second edition.

I tried H4350 on my first day out, and hit pay dirt. I never saw any reason to use anything else in my rifle.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Crossing barrels, velocity vs burn rate [Re: CptCurl]
      #29955 - 24/04/05 04:59 AM

Hm.

I get it that heavier bullets can get the initial recoil impulse to swing the rifle and 'uncross' the groups.

What if the only bullets that group well in a particular rifle are light, and increasing the bullet weight sends the group size wide open?
Can a slower or faster burning powder help get the groups to stay inline?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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wadeb
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Oregon, USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: chrispie]
      #29956 - 24/04/05 05:42 AM

Chrispie, Butch Searcy regulated my .500 N.E with 110 grains of IMR-4831. I chronographed them at about 2100fps.

I hope that helps you.

wadeb

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510Wells
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Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Gold Bar, Wa.
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: CptCurl]
      #29958 - 24/04/05 08:13 AM

Curl,

You are correct. For some reason I seemed to read that the rifle was shooting too far apart

But doubles being what they are, why not try going the other way and see if that works? Doubles being the wonderfully desirable and un-predictable things (like a women) that they are

Roi

--------------------
The only constant is change.

Member DRSS

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 510Wells]
      #29963 - 24/04/05 10:58 AM

105.0 gr. H4350 570 Woodleigh soft, bullets crossing at 50 yards (and shooting right):



107.0 gr. H4350 570 Woodleigh soft, bullets crossing at 50 yards:



Next I will try 103.0 grains to see if they cross.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: CptCurl]
      #30253 - 30/04/05 04:22 AM

In reply to:

If individual barrel groups are crossing it indicates too high velocity or too light a bullet. Increasing the velocity will only make the barrels cross more. Wade is going the right way, but it sounds like R15 is not for his rifle.





ABSOLUTELY! And I agree RL 15 may not be the right powder for his rifle.

The bullets are not staying in the barrel too long enough, hence the crossing! If the barrels cross, the speed is too high,and will usually be low! if they shoot apart, with the right barrel shooting on the RIGHT, and the left barrel shooting on the LEFT, and usually high, then the load is too slow!

The above is a general rule as there are some doubles that simply do not follow the rules. Then it is simply a JOB in the offing for the loader, finding the proper load!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. *DELETED* [Re: 500grains]
      #30376 - 02/05/05 05:24 AM

see below

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 500grains]
      #30377 - 02/05/05 05:26 AM

see below

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 500grains]
      #30378 - 02/05/05 05:27 AM

see below

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 500grains]
      #30380 - 02/05/05 06:31 AM

Heya 500gr-

About barrel time and burn rate...

Doesn't the burn rate --and so the relationship between the intensity and druation of the push or recoil impulse *before the bullet leaves the muzzle*-- affect the placement of the group print too?

Have you ever found in your work with your doubles that with different powders that at similar velocities and bullet weights, different burn rate powders cross or not and/or shoot above or below the point of aim?

Just curious here.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: tinker]
      #30383 - 02/05/05 09:20 AM

Tinker, I only have one double. It prints different loads different places. And different brands of bullets regulate slightly differently. And it is more accurate with some bullets than others (it is best with GS Custom). Your statement about burn rate and barrel time makes sense, but I have not tried to correlate where the group prints on paper with burn rate of the powder, but I will start noticing it now. Note that the GS Custom bullets achieve a higher velocity with a given powder charge than WOodleigh, so they tend to regulate earlier and print a bit lower on the target.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 500grains]
      #30384 - 02/05/05 09:21 AM

Trying again...

Here is a 2 shot group at 50 yards with 103.0 grains H4350 and 570 grain Wodleigh softs:

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 500grains]
      #30385 - 02/05/05 09:23 AM


.500 NE, 570 Woodleigh soft, 96.0 grains Reloader 15

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wadeb
.224 member


Reged: 11/11/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Oregon, USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 500grains]
      #30398 - 02/05/05 02:38 PM

.500 grains, thanks for posting those targets and what those loads are doing for your rifle. Right now, everything including the regulation load in my rifle seems to be crossing considerably (fired over 90 rounds with good individual left and right barrel groups so it cannot be me). I will be trying much lighter loads, around 2000fps to see if hopefully I can get the right and left barrels in the same vertical lines as you, as they should be. Thanks again for showing me what you rifle is doing, if I knew how to post pictures I would do the same.

wadeb

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: wadeb]
      #30399 - 02/05/05 03:51 PM

wadeb,

Have you tried stepwise regulating loads? You probably know this but it is done as follows. Take a plastic ammo box that holds 20 rounds of ammo. Tape a big piece of masking tape along the side of the box with the box top off. That gives you a place to write the powder charge for grouping pairs. Then load the following:

2 shots of 102.0 grains IMR4831

2 shots of 104.0 grains IMR4831

2 shots of 106.0 grains IMR4831

2 shots of 108.0 grains IMR4831

2 shots of 110.0 grains IMR4831

Then shoot each pair. But make sure to look through the spotting scope at each shot so you know which hole is the left barrel and which is the right. Mark the target with a pen after each group of 2.

The 2 shot groups should start off quite wide apart, then close in on each other. When they are close, you can go home and load up another regulating set that goes up in half grain increments across a 2 grain range. So for example, if 106.0 grains is not crossing, but 108.0 grains is, you could shoot 106.0 grains, 106.5 grains, 107 grains, 107.5 grains.

Then if you like you can repeat the proces with Reloader 15 (probably start at 88 or 90 grains, with filler). And you could repeate it with H4350 (probably start at 95 grains or so).

A couple of other important points. Use a fresh can of powder to eliminate the possibility that the powder is old nd degraded. Also, be sure to use Federal 215 primers ONLY. It is the hottest commercially available lare rifle primer.

Note that this load development is to find a regulating load, not to find the most accurate load. That is why only 2 shots are needed per powder level. If I had to shoot a 3 shot group per barrel to regulate, I would trade my .500 in on a .303 double.

One more point. I did not notice diddlysquat difference in recoil among the Reloader 15 loads, the H4350 loads and the IMR4831 loads.

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wadeb
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Reged: 11/11/04
Posts: 40
Loc: Oregon, USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: 500grains]
      #30502 - 04/05/05 01:07 PM

500 grains, thanks for the help and that is a great idea to find the regulation load for one's rifle. It seems to me that the correct load for my rifle is around 104 to 105 grains of IMR-4831. That is putting me at just over 2000fps.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: H-4350 in .500 N.E. [Re: wadeb]
      #30526 - 05/05/05 01:54 AM

Wade, another couple of things to consider although you have probably already thought of them:

1. When shooting from sandbags, no part of the rifle should touch the bag. Your front hand may rest on a bag, however.

2. If your rifle has a splinter forearm (very likely), you do not actually grip the forearm. The forearm is to fill your palm, but you actually grip around the forearm so that your fingers come up onto the barrels.

3. The 2150 fps standard velocity for the 450 NE, 470 NE, 500 NE was out of 30" barrels at the proof house. Lop off 6" and lose 100 fps.

4. You might want to try other brands of bullets because they may regulate differently.

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