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GABE93
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Reged: 01/03/17
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Loc: FNQ, AUSTRALIA
LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING
      #298255 - 01/04/17 07:59 PM

To anyone interested in linseed oil for stock finishing, here is some info' I can share about better quality linseed oils, alkanet, resins and "English" style gunstock finishing.

I still have a lot to learn about the subject and I'm not trying to tell anyone linseed oil is the best stock finish. The content here is about optimising the linseed and achieving a better linseed finish.

We could easily start a separate thread discussing what might be the best gunstock finish using the many different products a lot of us have tried. I don't think there is one finish that is the best in every characteristic we want in a gunstock finish.

There is too much for me to post in one time so please be patient.

I tried hardware store BLO many years ago as an uninformed teenager. Over the years I also tried many other finish's as many woodworkers do. Much more recently I became interested in the "English" style linseed finish.

After my accident I spent many hours researching the subject and purchased various oils etc to try.

A shelf here with various linseed oils and walnut offcuts- [image]http://[/image] [image]http://[/image]

Various recommendations were to use cold pressed food grade linseed (flax seed oil). I don't trust food grade oils as they can have added vitamins and anti oxidants, even if the label says 100% pure oil. A lot of these oils can also be cloudy. In think it is better to use a perfectly filtered transparent oil. Any additives or clouding particles will slow the drying.

Other recommendations were to use raw or boiled oil without any detail about the quality of the oil.
I kept searching and noticed that Swedish cold pressed linseed is often regarded as the best. The climate in southern Sweden is regarded as ideal for growing high quality flax plants, giving high quality oil.

This oil is intended for woodwork, varnish making, house & commercial paint and hand made artists oil paints. The processing varies a little. Some is delivered a little cloudy. Further ahead in the post I can show a method to filter cloudy oil.

It was very difficult to buy online directly from Sweden so I purchased some from Germany and the USA.

Below are 4 oils from Dictum, Kremer & Sinopia. All these arrived perfectly filtered and you can see how transparent they are in the glass bottles. [image]http://[/image] [image]http://[/image]

All these seem to be equally good. All 3 companies were easy to buy from online. The websites should come up if you google the name but if you can't get them let me know and I can post the links. Sinopia is in USA, the other 2 are in Germany, and Kremer also has a USA division. For Australia deal direct with the German shop as the distributers here are too slow etc.

It's taking a long time to compose all this, getting a bit hungry for dinner now, so i will post the next section tomorrow re filtering cloudy oil, using the psyllium husk visible in one image, and infusing alkanet into it.

I will add a bit here I forgot yesterday about the Swedish oils from Dictum & Kremer Pigmente. They also offer BLO or linseed varnish made from the Swedish cold pressed oil. I don't have any yet as my current interest is in adding the driers myself to the pure oil. This BLO from Dictum or Kremer would be better quality than the regular BLO available here in OZ. The pure oils and some of the BLO have no shipping restrictions. You will also see some tung oil here.
LINKS-
Kremer Pigmente http://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/mediums-binders-und-glues/
Dictum https://www.dictum.com/en/surfaces
Sinopia http://www.sinopia.com/VS50017-Cold-Pressed-Linseed-Oil-from-Sweden-best-grade_p_11.html

Filtering cloudy cold pressed linseed, images below - I found a method online using Psyllium husk to help filter the oil. The method had some extra stages to further refine the oil for artists use which I felt changed the oil too much so I have just tried the husk stage of the method, with cotton wool as the final very fine filter.

The husk seems to absorb the cloudy particles. Try about 2 tablespoons of husk in 500ml of oil.
Use a bit larger jar to allow expansion of the husk. Shake the jar several times a day for 2-3 days.
Then filter the husk out using a fine paint filter and cotton wool packed into the stem of the funnel.

The paint filter alone won't filter the oil perfectly transparent. It is used to stop the husk clogging up the wool. Lift the filter a bit out of the funnel sometimes and give the gloopy husk a stir to stop it stiffening too much. This amount of oil will take about 2 days to filter thru the tightly packed wool.
[image]http://[/image]
[image]http://[/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]


Below images of a cloudy Swedish cold pressed oil, comparison between filtered and unfiltered.
Filtered on the left. The cloudy particles have settled a little in the unfiltered oil but you can see it is still a little cloudy compared to the filtered oil.
[image][/image]
[image][/image]


Alkanet infused linseed oil "Red Oil"- alkanet root extract is a very old dye & stain used in various industries. If you google "alkanet root", "alkanet red linseed oil" etc etc you will find most of the info' I found about it. For many years I thought it was just another type of stain.

More recently I have learnt that compounds in the alkanet reacts with compounds and their ph levels in walnut. When infused into linseed oil and applied to the raw wood for the initial coats it is regarded as the best colour & figure enhancer of walnut.

When infused into thinners or alcohol it can also be used as a stain. I haven't tried it as a stain yet. I purchased some root powder from Aussie Soap Supplies instead of root pieces as the powder gives up the colour much faster. However it is harder to filter out than root pieces.
[image][/image]

Below images infusing and filtering. I used about 50gms of root powder to 300ml of oil. I infused one jar for 28 days and a second jar for 12 days. The strength of colour looks the same.


[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]

The filtering is done thru a fine paint filter and cotton wool in the funnel stem as per the husk filtering. The root powder turns into a sludge. Stir it regularly to stop it stiffening. This sludge has to be filtered out perfectly. You will see it settle to the bottom of the glass bottle if you don't remove all of it. Any sludge in your coats of finish will retard the finish quality.
[image][/image] [image][/image]

The Langridge oil above, an aussie artists grade cold pressed oil I had unopened for a few years. It was quite cloudy with a lot settling out in the bottom. I filtered it and made some red oil with it.
I will continue posting later today or evening.
















Edited by GABE93 (03/04/17 08:06 AM)


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298256 - 01/04/17 08:04 PM

Looking forward to your post progress Gabe,bloody interesting already about the different oils.

--------------------
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VonGruff
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298257 - 01/04/17 08:21 PM

Heck yes. I have been using the storebought linseed and tung oil (although the tung oil was noted as pure) so anything that will give me a better finish is a valuable learning opportunity.

I saw this posted on another forum earlier in the day


I had a friend who was a brilliant rifle maker, literally 60 years metalsmithing (no wood), and he was always willing to share his knowledge with others. I had a conversation about it with him once.

I said "aren't you bothered by people copying your work" etc. he told me two things that I thought showed both his character, and why he was as good as he was

1. By sharing his techniques with others and how he had done something, maybe they would improve on it and he'd learn in return.

And 2. If they weren't ready for the knowledge they wouldn't be able to use it yet. when they were able to use it they would have earned it.


And one I vocalised many years ago was that skills and information that was not shared or passed on was likely to be lost and dimished our trade or passion and having been shared may expand the skill base within the specific interest or skill circle.

Post on as you are able Gabe, we are reading with real interest.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298264 - 02/04/17 12:31 AM

Thanks Gentlemen,
Dinner gave me more energy, I started writing a draft of the comments I want to post tomorrow. Can't do it off the top of my head, would have too many errors.

V G, re tung oil, look for first quality pure chinese tung oil. They make several grades of it. Very few companies advertise any best quality tung oil. Also avoid any from South America, it's not as good apparently.

I'll be happy to discuss anything after I post most of my material.

Also agree with your comments about sharing info.

Something about the forum I need to ask. I'm viewing via internet explorer right now and I can see the images I posted earlier, using explorer, no probs but when I look at my post using Mozilla firefox I can only see the text. In place of the images there are just the words "image image" etc, etc. I wonder if I set something incorrectly re images when I last viewed the forum on firefox.

I started using explorer as it was much faster than firefox when I was working with the images in photobucket.

Cheers,
Gabe


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Bidgee
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298279 - 02/04/17 04:17 AM

Thanks for posting this information, I am looking forward to the rest with great interest.

When I first saw the photos Alchemy sprung to mind!

Cheers

Edited by Bidgee (02/04/17 04:18 AM)


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298280 - 02/04/17 04:20 AM

Gabe, you have reinvigorated my interest and I have been shopping around the net. I found this mob of which you will undoubtedly know of.

I am not 100% convinced as to the veracity of their spiel as they are after all in 'sales'.Its not cheap and they suggest the use of another of their wares as a mix too. IE a 50/50 cut with Citric Terpene.

20 L @ $500 for the serious wood finisher is costly. Or $46 a single litre.

I thought it was a good read. What do you reckon.

http://www.tungoil.com.au/

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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VonGruff
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298298 - 02/04/17 02:42 PM

Gryphon, When I bought my tung oil about 25 years ago I got a 4 litre tin that cost about 50 some dollars then. I got it from a reputable paint and associated finishes outlet and what is posted on that site is about what they told me then. I got vegetable turps (gum terpentine) and would apply it in wet sanding and thin rubbing coats for way more than the 4 soak coats they recomend on the website, depending on the walnut density but up to 20 very thin coats was not uncommon over a number of weeks. I also used it on furniture I was making but for that the fewer soak and rub off coats were the prefered usage. I would also melt a little beeswax into a mix for the final application.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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Rule303
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298300 - 02/04/17 03:14 PM

Gabe, thanks for posting. I most likely will never try this but I do find it interesting and it never hurts to learn and increase ones knowledge.

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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Rule303]
      #298305 - 02/04/17 04:05 PM

VG I don`t suppose you have any of the orig tin left,I ask as how well does it keep.
My mate that did the maple stock for me rubbed in 'over 50 coats' he advised.
The rifle is in a silicon stocking and I noticed that it had darkened a little over the years.
I must get it out and take a pic in some good light.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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VonGruff
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298329 - 03/04/17 06:03 AM

Yes I still have a little left but have kept putting it into smaller containers as the quantity decreased to keep the air above the oil to the minimum. It still produces a very nice finish and with an alkanet/blo oil first coat can bring some fantastic depth to the colour that some walnut will produce.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: VonGruff]
      #298330 - 03/04/17 06:24 AM

do you apply with the use of a hair dryer albeit at the right distance that is.

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Homer
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298339 - 03/04/17 08:39 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Wow Gabe93, you have been busy.
Thank You for sharing.

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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GABE93
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Reged: 01/03/17
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298342 - 03/04/17 11:02 AM

gryphon,
I wont sleep now until someone tells me how to apply finish with your hairdryer
Gabe


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VonGruff
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298343 - 03/04/17 11:03 AM

Quote:

do you apply with the use of a hair dryer albeit at the right distance that is.




No hair drier for my aplication, just a drop on the fingertip and rub it in to as wide an area as it will ocver then repeat and set aside till it is ready for another going over.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298344 - 03/04/17 11:30 AM

In conjunction with an HD I should have typed.

Meaning using the warm air to keep the wood warm and thus more readily accepting of the oils entry.
I understand warmer means better.. like rubbing wooden furniture with oil in a manner to get the heat into it blah blah.

Like waxing leather boots,belts,saddles etc?

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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298356 - 03/04/17 05:09 PM

Yes, I'm aware of some finishers heating linseed oil to make it penetrate more, but usually by warming a very small container of oil in hot water. I haven't tried heat myself. Heat will make any driers in the oil work faster.

The best quality cold pressed linseed doesn't seem to need heat. It is regarded as the best penetrating oil, even without thinners. Pure best quality tung oil is a thicker oil and needs to be thinned to penetrate. The 2 brands I have also need thinning a bit for any final top coats.

GABE


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GABE93
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Reged: 01/03/17
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298359 - 03/04/17 08:07 PM

Continuing the post
Applying red oil to a Turkish walnut blank below. The actual colour of the wood is nicer than my poor images indicate. It is better to store wood unfinished but I can't resist admiring my wood often so I apply a basic finish to the sides and leave the edges and ends raw.

Each side here is sanded to 320g and whiskered then red oil applied, no thinners or heat but I add lead or cobalt driers, usually 2 drops to 1/4 teaspoon of oil. The driers are added to a small amount of oil each time I oil the blank. I don't return any oil left over from each rubbing to the main bottle. I keep the main bottle free of driers.

On this blank I applied 6-7 coats late last year, 1-2 weeks between coats, then left it alone. I add driers right from the start as I want all the oil in the wood to cure hard as possible. Just for the images below I quickly applied a thin coat straight from the bottle, no driers.

You can see how the red oil on walnut is a colour enhancer, not a stain. Many fellows think red oil will turn walnut red. On the white pine fixture the red is clearly obvious. The walnut here has not turned red, the colour has deepened and become a bit richer.

The bits of wood screwed to the blank allow me to handle it with my weak arms. I still cant hold the blank in one hand and rub oil on it with the other hand.

[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

This would be a good spot to insert a link to a video about gunmaking at Purdey. Runs for 1.5 hrs, the stock finish bit is at the end but the whole vid is good. The finisher mentions cleaning the raw wood with a mild acid solution, have not tried that yet. You can see the finisher using red oil and the "Slacum" oil for the harder coats. They don't reveal the exact ingredients. I'll discuss my simple version when I discuss the Amber varnish and pore filling, on some walnut offcuts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fac892fHBME

Below, image of the thinners and driers I like. The thinners is a citrus type. Google Livos Australia, or Livos Germany, to read about it. Livos also makes various linseed based oils, I have some here, but they have too many other ingredients that I feel soften the finish a bit.

I prefer this thinners, it evaporates completely and is claimed to be a better dilutent for wood oils. I have read opinions that the petroleum based thinners sort of breakdown the molecules of the oil a little.

I know pure gum turpentine is the traditional thinners for linseed. If you research gum turps you will see it ranges in quality a lot. I have tried to find the very best, some can't be obtained due to shipping restrictions, but I have not yet found any that evaporates completely.

I test it by smearing some on a glass plate and watching how it evaporates. All I have tried leave a residue on the glass. After a few days some of the residue can harden a bit more but still wipes off easily. This residue remains in the finish and slightly softens the finish. It may be a small point but I did say at the beginning I would talk about optimizing the linseed.

The driers here, one from James Groves Gallery and the Pebeo. Google both names for more info. Pebeo products are available in various countries. James Groves is an artist in the USA and makes various products. He has an extensive website. I will post direct links to him when I post about his Amber and Copal varnish's etc,etc.

Combining different types of driers increase's the hardening effect. The different driers work in slightly different ways on the oil. Be aware driers like this are regarded as a bit unhealthy. Wear gloves. They don't seem to have affected me too much over many years use in various products, I just hide the extra fingers near my elbow with long sleeves!

[image][/image]

Edited by GABE93 (04/04/17 09:15 AM)


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298360 - 03/04/17 08:22 PM

Looks great and highlights the colours with a real clarity too. Gabe thats a nice bloody blank.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298361 - 03/04/17 08:23 PM

VG, you can fill your jars with marbles to keep the air out as well. The glass does not react with the contents, this trick is recommended by Rustins.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298363 - 03/04/17 08:27 PM

Gabe, great article, very interesting. I am going to try adding some of the alkanet root powder to the Danish oil. I will let you know how it goes.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298364 - 03/04/17 09:12 PM

W,

That's what I would do as well when I try the Danish oil one day. Hope it doesn't start drying too much during the filtering stage, when the oil is a bit more exposed to the air. Try covering the funnel, or perhaps you will think of a better trick.

Don't forget, get all the residue out when you filter it. I wonder if the Danish oil is thin enough to filter thru the cotton wool in the funnel?

Last year I also infused some alkanet into one of my pure tung oils and when I filtered it I had to add a bit of the Svalos thinners to let it drip thru the cotton wool.

The Danish oil might also be good as is over red oil enhanced walnut.

Gabe


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298365 - 03/04/17 09:21 PM

gryphon,
This blank is the type of blank I personally prefer, very nice but not too spectacular and with perfect layout. Could be wishful thinking but hope I can work on it one day.

I have various others, very nice but not too flashy, but also have some with bolder figure. They are all on the wall opposite to where I write this.

Gabe


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298379 - 04/04/17 04:43 AM

That last pic,looks like its part of a chemists shelf

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paradox_
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298395 - 04/04/17 09:10 AM

Gabe

Thank you for sharing your hard knowledge
It is much appreciated.

Best
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: paradox_]
      #298396 - 04/04/17 09:23 AM

Thank you,
Keep looking back as I am going back to my previous postings, editing and adding anything that I notice I have forgotten. When the editing time expires I'll continue the post after whatever replies anyone makes as I go along.


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