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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
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Loc: South Carolina
Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels
      #297834 - 26/03/17 03:06 PM

In Autumn 2015 (Northern Hemisphere) I began a task to build, regulate and engrave a double rifle with shoe lump barrels. I had not ever built shoe lump barrels nor had I ever seen anyone do so. Therefore the process of building this DR (in .38-55 McPherson Express--255 grain .377" Hawk bullet and 39 grs 3031 at 2,000 fps) was a self-education. I photographed much of the building of the DR and the barrels and shared them with my fellow engravers and gun makers on the Engravers Cafe BBS during the more than 1-year project. Maybe some of you followed my project on Engravers Cafe.

However the project was completed in February 2017 and I am going to show you the end results and then start at the beginning to explain how I build shoe lump barrels. At least I am going to show you the photos if I can make the less than user friendly photo posting system of this BBS work.

I picked an old American cartridge of about 125 years of age to see what could be done with it if you loaded it up to max+ psi. Michael McPherson, gun writer developed a longer .38-55 case some few years ago and I purchased a chamber reamer for his .38-55 McPherson and bought a few hundred .38-55 McPherson brass cases from Starline. Since my plan was to have a set of barrels that were at least 1 inch in diameter at the breech and that the barrel alloy steel would be 4140, and that I was using a 1963 vintage Brno ZP-45 SLE action. I was confident that the resulting DR would tolerate the chamber and barrel pressure of the "wildcat" cartridge. I tested this assumption by pressure way over what the UK proof houses test percentage wise of the service load of a specific cartridge. That is all that I will say about the pressure subject now or in the future.

I have heard that at least one other individual here in the USA has made a set of shoe lump barrels, but I have not seen them or the DR that they may be fitted.

Building a rifle of any type requires skill and patience along with proper equipment and tools. Anyone who builds such a rifle assumes all the risk for the project. I do not warrant or guarantee any methods I used or work that others might produce after reading how I built my project. The sole risk lies with the rifle builder.

Equipment that I used included vertical and horizontal mills, lathes, drill presses, high temp brazing furnace/burners, Oxy/Acl equipment, tools and equipment that I built as well as purchased.

The engraving system I used is the Lindsay foot control Airgraver and a bino microscope. The engraving style used is based upon English Fine Scroll as taught by Marcus Hunt of the UK.

My plan is to first show photos of the finished and cased rifle along with the engraving of the DR in the white. In subsequent posts I will start with photos of the milling of a 2 inch dia 2.7 inch bar of 4140 as the shoe lump platform. The building of the platform to conform with the center of the firing pin holes in the action is a major calculation undertaking in and of itself. The one item alone required many prototypes before I was satisfied with the results.













Edited by CptCurl (03/05/17 09:36 PM)


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93x64mm
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297837 - 26/03/17 03:48 PM

Fancy work Transvaal!

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297838 - 26/03/17 03:48 PM

OK, it has been 3 years or so since I posted photos and I have forgotten how to do it and cannot find instructions here. Someone tell me how to post photos and not addresses of the photos as I have done.. Here is what I did. I pulled up the photos I wanted on Photobucket; right clicked and selected Copy Address and clicked on that; then I went to the post above and selected URB and pasted to the two bars that came up.

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eagle27
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297853 - 26/03/17 07:33 PM

Point to the top left corner of your photo and a square with lines appears with a drop down, left click 'Share' then select address in box below IMG, left click and box briefly flicks yellow with Copied. Go back to your NE post, right click and select paste. Your post will show a URL address but once you 'continue' and finish your post your photo will show.

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: eagle27]
      #297867 - 27/03/17 12:12 AM

Eagle27;

Thanks, I will delete the photo links in my post and add photos later today using your method outlined in your post.


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transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297888 - 27/03/17 07:23 AM

I built this DR on a 1963 series Brno zp49 SLE donor action. Actions of this time frame are machined with a very thick draw section of the action lump slot and the draw is machined at an angle instead of a radius. This allowed me to build and joint a set of barrels that are of similar design to how H&H and other UK DR makers use today to provide for a more ridged lock up of the action to the barrels upon closing of the action. Vic Venters in his book: Gun Craft illustrates this on page 13. The jointing of the barrels then are held tightly against three points 1)action face to barrel face; 2)action draw to forward surface of the rear lump (called the circle area); and the forward lump hook to the hinge pin.

If you do not follow me in this description let me know and I will photograph page 15 of Vic's book and add the photo to the post.

For those of you who follow me on this you can see that the jointing of barrels using this 3 point lock up is very time consuming and much pre-planing an thought is required, not to mention handicraft.

Here are some photos that will show you how to get started.













Edited by CptCurl (03/05/17 09:41 PM)


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MMBA
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297925 - 27/03/17 12:56 PM

This is fantastic. Please keep posting.

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: MMBA]
      #297928 - 27/03/17 01:55 PM

Continuing the posting of photos of machining the shoe lump platform.

It occurred to me earlier tonight as I was waiting for Photobucket to regain its operational ability, that I should show you some photos of what the final shoe lump product looks like and how it is positioned on the barrels prior to brazing all together. Then you will understand where we are and where we are going on this posting.

In the photos below you will see photos of the machining of the lumps. You will also see photos of the contured barrels after I spent a week or so getting them down to the weight and profile that I wanted. The diameter of the barrels at the muzzle is .575" and they weight a bit over 2 pounds each. Most importantly you will see how I devised a way to cut away a radius section of the bottom of the barrels to fit the shoe lump platform. This cutting of the radius is the solution to having the barrels breech end exactly centered to the firing pin bushing holes (striker discs holes) while at the same time leaving about .075" minimum shoe lump radius under the barrels for proper service strength and brazing area. It is extremely important to calculate this machining of the radius and the fitting to the lump exactly to withing a few thousands of an inch, so that when the action is closed you have sufficient gap between the barrel flats and the action flats.











Edited by CptCurl (03/05/17 09:52 PM)


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297930 - 27/03/17 02:22 PM

The machine cutting away of a radius (1 inch) to the right/left top of the shoe lump platform is accomplished by a 1 inch ball tip milling cutter as illustrated in the photo below. You can also set the angle of the barrel convergence so that the radius "channels" are correctly positioned for the amount of convergence you desire. If you cut your channels to deep (and too deep can be only a few thousands of an inch, you will have to discard the shoe lump platform that you have spent much time and effort and make a new replacement. I picked 1 inch as my radius after much careful consideration and measuring to have the proper fit and jointing of the barrels.

After you have finished the total machining of the shoe lumps, including cutting the angle of the front of the rear lump to mate at a hard fit with the action draw, you can began to hand joint the platform to the action prior to brazing the barrels to the shoe lump platform. Much of the fitting and jointing will be done with the hinge pin removed from the action. Later I will explain how this is accomplished by leaving material at the top of the forward lump hook. If I forget to explain it remind me of it.













Edited by CptCurl (03/05/17 09:54 PM)


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297931 - 27/03/17 03:07 PM

I forgot to state earlier that I am sharing this shoe lump barrel building method as an education to all of you both amateur and professional. Anything that you want more explanation or details, just post about it, and I will respond. I do not have an ego to sooth or a trade secret to cover up. I remember Jack Rowe telling me that when he was a lad in Birmingham, England learning the gun trade, that many times when he walked into a gunmakers shop, that the gunmaker working at the bench would cover the work with a spare apron so that Jack could not see what he was doing or how he was doing it.

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buckbrush
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297935 - 27/03/17 04:08 PM

very interesting post.

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 1977
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: buckbrush]
      #297944 - 27/03/17 06:59 PM

Transval, very very nice. Great machining and some clever work holding methods. Your engraving is first rate, very impressive. I agree about showing people how to do things rather than keeping all the info to yourself. Many old tradesman used to do just that, keep all the little tricks to themselves and not really help the new guys trying to learn.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #297954 - 28/03/17 12:08 AM

You will notice in the photo of the above post that the action face shows the original shotgun firing pin (striker) discs that are threaded into the action face. These discs were replaced with two discs that I made from 0-1 alloy steel, with reduced diameter firing pin hole suitable for high pressure rifle cartridge as well as the 3 holes for the removal/installation tool to fit into. I reduced the 3 mentioned holes to the size of a #50 drill; and the reason for this reduction was that I wanted to make sure that the 3 holes were outside of the primer zone when the rifle was fired. The correct position of 120 degrees apart for the 3 holes was accomplished using a rotary fixture mounted vertically on the table of my vertical mill. After building these discs of 0-1 alloy steel they were hardened and tempered. Small item but could cause big issues if not put right in building a DR.

You can also see the hidden third fastener slot in the face of the action. We can discuss this later for any of you who wish to, but suffice it to say now that the third fastener fitting should be the final item to be fitting when jointing the DR barrels to the action. I like third fasteners of this type to be fitted to where they will hold the action closed to the same position as the action horizontal locking bolt. They should be made and fitted so that as the DR recoil wears the barrel extension over the years a new third fastener of thicker steel can be made and inserted in the slot without enlargement of the slot.

I think this is a proper time in this narrative to discuss that all double gun actions are not made to exacting tolerances and that each one should be checked for the squareness of the face to the lump slot that is milled into the water table of the action. This slot is the data point from which all dimensions and measurements of the action must be taken.

The first measurement that should be checked: Is the face of the action square (perpendicular)to the water table lump slot? (You will be surprised at what you find if you do this test) In order that this test can be carried out with a high degree of accuracy a fixture must be made that holds the action securely without any movement so that the fixture with the action attached can be mounted on a vertical mill and a dial indicator used to measure deviation from zero right to left and left to right of the face of the action. You cannot mount a double gun/rifle action with 100 % assurance that it is mounted square in all directions without such a fixture. The photos below show how to make the fixture.

The fixture is made in a vertical mill and is machined square in all directions. A portion of the fixture is milled to exact width (less .001" of the individual action's lump slot, as the action is to be attached via this portion or extension of the fixture.







Edited by CptCurl (06/05/17 09:35 PM)


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297960 - 28/03/17 01:51 AM

Here is photo of page 15 of the book: "Gun Craft" by Vic Venters illustrating how the draw of the action makes hard contact with the "circle"/"wedge" area of the barrels rear lump, when the DR action is closed. I hope that this makes it clearer for all of you.



Edited by CptCurl (06/05/17 09:36 PM)


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transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297961 - 28/03/17 03:20 AM

Now, we can discuss the profiling of the barrels and the prototype machining I did on barrel breech end "mock ups". As I stated at the outset of this post, I had no experience in building or knowing how to build shoe lump barrels, and as a result I "thought" through the process of how I could do it for about 3 months. As I viewed the 2-3 methods that I conceived in my mind of how I could make a set of shoe lump barrels that would fit the donor zp49 action I had at hand, I settled on the method of building a shoe lump platform that I have illustrated above.

However, I did not want to risk the use the set of barrels that I had profiled from 1.120" round rifle blanks, to learn if my ideas proved to be correct or wrong. Therefore after I had profiled the barrels, I set about machining the mock up breech ends to determine how many degrees of the 360 degrees of the outside diameter of the barrels I must cut away to fit the shoe lump platform. This is illustrated in the photos below.













Edited by CptCurl (06/05/17 09:39 PM)


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297963 - 28/03/17 03:54 AM

In the photo above where I am holding the shoe lump platform into the machined recess of the prototype barrel breech end, you can see the extractor hole clearly. As you would expect the extractor hole must be drilled precisely for the full length of the shoe lump platform. Such a precise hole is outside the realm of typical drill press drilling. A "D" drill is made to drill using drill rod and milling the "D" section at the end of this shop made "D" drill. After you make the "D" drill you must hardened it and temper it back with only about 350 degrees F temper. Some of you will have not encountered a "D" drill or the technique of using them. If you will Google "how to make and use a "D" drill you will find all about them and so forth.

In order to start the hole with 100% accuracy a ball tip milling cuter of the diameter required is used and the depth of the hole is cut with the milling cutter to about 1/2 inch. Then you complete the drilling with the "D" drill, WHICH is long process as you only drill a depth of .050", back the "D" drill out of the hole, clean the hole of all chips and continue on at increments of .050" per drilling cut. The position of the milling machine that you are using to do the drilling as well as the milling vise and table must not be changed during the entire process, which is likely to be more than one hour.

Although a photo of "D" drilling is above (photo #6 from the start of the post). I am adding it here again. I cannot over emphasis how important a hole through the shoe lump platform that does not deviate more than +/- .005" from end to end is in order that an automatic ejector system works properly. If you do not get this done properly, then you are in for trouble later on on a set of barrels that have been brazed to the shoe lump, and the hole cannot be re-drilled to correct the problem. If you do not have it drilled properly, then discard the shoe lump platform and make a new one and drill it correctly. Gunsmiths who have had experience in drilling such accurate holes in making a set of barrels are seldom found, and practice is required before they do this work. Engravers practice engraving an entire side lock or whatever they are working on before we actually do the engraving on the gun or rifle. This practice may take many hours or days, but you cannot afford to "mess" up a gun or rifle and set yourself for days of work that you will not receive compensation.

Notice how early in the shoe lump platform machining that I have "D" drilled the extractor hole (7/32"). If you delay drilling this hole and you drill it off, then you will have maybe 1/2-1 day of work that you will have to discard.



Edited by CptCurl (06/05/17 09:41 PM)


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
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Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297983 - 28/03/17 07:31 AM

The brazing of the barrels is the next subject up for discussion. I tried 2 methods of heating the barrel pair up to brazing temperature: 1) light weight fire brick pile furnace; and 2) the heating of the barrels with a large ring propane burner similar to the way that I found that Verney Carron uses. This link will show you how Verney-Carron does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKdjPS8339k&list=FL6pg-PI55WcZg9sM6D7qc6A

See the Verney-Carron brazing method starting at 1 minute 50 seconds into the video.

After I found the video that illustrated the Verney-Carron method I discontinued using the fire brick pile furnace. The reason being that by being able to bring an Oxy/Actl torch quickly to the barrels after they reach brazing flow temperature, you can be assured that you can reach all the areas of the barrels to add braze if you need to. Secondly and importantly you can allow the barrels to drop in temperature while they are stationary and be assured that the do not move from the desired position on the shoe lump platform. Thirdly there is less concern about overheating the barrel set with the open burner method. You use more fuel with Verney-Carron method, but it is outweighed all its advantages over the furnace.

I built a fixture to hold the barrels while they are heated. This fixture does not consume as much heat as the fixture you will see in the video, I think. Here are some photos. Please note that much more silver braze is needed that what I have placed for this photo. You will see what the barrels look like from their breech end in the brazing furnace or muffle as it is also called. The final photos are the barrels after they have been cleaned.













Edited by CptCurl (06/05/17 09:44 PM)


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transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297984 - 28/03/17 07:59 AM

After brazing of the barrels the breech end needs to be machined for the hidden third fastener projection and for the correct breech angle to mate against the breech of the action. The protractor shown in the second photos is used to set the exact angle. It should be noted that the cartridge chambers were rough reamed prior to the profiling of the barrels in order to ream them to exact center of the bore. The barrels were hung to the far left side of the vertical mill and head of the mill rotated to the left over the barrels. And as you see the barrels are held in a small precision vise and that vise is held in the large 6 inch mill vise.





Edited by CptCurl (06/05/17 09:46 PM)


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Claydog
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #297987 - 28/03/17 08:39 AM

Thanks for taking the time to show this. Fascinating

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MMBA
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Reged: 12/12/15
Posts: 89
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: Claydog]
      #298005 - 28/03/17 12:59 PM

Most generous. Please keep posting.

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gryphon
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: MMBA]
      #298006 - 28/03/17 01:41 PM

Fantastic work and I think JH will just about award you life membership of NE forums if you keep posting this great project.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: gryphon]
      #298021 - 28/03/17 08:07 PM

Great work, very clever way of attaching the shoe lump, lots of surface area. Keep it coming, very interesting.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298044 - 29/03/17 03:25 AM

You will notice that the diameter of the thru-hole for the extractors is small (7/32). It is small as I wanted reduce risk of removing too much metal. Therefore I chose a very strong hard steel alloy (O-1) to make the two extractors. Also as the extractor shaft diameters are small the construction of these needs to be of solid one piece material, to my mind. No welding.

The method I used to make these two extractors was to mill a round bar of O-1 and chuck the flattened bar in a four-jaw chuck in the lathe and cut away everything I did not want--this is the way of the past and the future way of constructing something like these extractors is additive machining not subtractive. A better way to have done this using the old method was to have forged a section of O-1 down to nearly the size I needed then turned it with the lathe. However, where in the past I would have done this, Arthritis in my hands makes it so painful to hold a hammer while forging on the anvil, that I can no longer do any forging of this type.

Of course the old method that I used is a long process and wastes a lot of expensive alloy steel, but here are some photos. I have included a photo of the fixture-jig I built to hold the extractors where they can be machined very accurately horizontally into two halves. The two extractor halves were heat treated. Fixtures can be made to hold extractor halves, but machining a bar of steel exactly square to all sides, then while the extractor fixture remains in the mill vise from the last machining (of the 4 mills cuts to make it square all around) mill a slot horizontally with a ball time milling cutter (in this case 7/32" milling cutter)to a depth a few thousands of an inch less than 50% of the diameter of the extractor shaft needed. Although I do not have a photo that illustrates the the cross pieces retainers that I made to hold the extractor firmly in place during milling, you can see the threaded holes in the top of the fixture and have a good idea of how they work. I made provisions for three cross piece retainers. I do not like this extractor fixture design I made and will make some other design in the future as needed.
















Edited by CptCurl (06/05/17 09:48 PM)


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 105
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #298045 - 29/03/17 04:11 AM

I noticed that photos in my first post have disappeared and I no longer have an "edit" box to select to go restore these photos of the finished DR. I suppose these photos have disappeared due to changes in the Photobucket.

Can anyone tell me how to regain edit ability to the original post to restore the photos? In the meantime I have added "in the white" and "in the black" full view photos in the 6th post from the top as I continue to have edit rights in it.

Edited by transvaal (29/03/17 04:33 AM)


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Matabele
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Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels [Re: transvaal]
      #298054 - 29/03/17 06:48 AM

This is a fantastic build and a pleasure to watch unfold, thanks for sharing!

Can I ask how you determined the angle of conversion for the barrels?

And you asked to be reminded to share some info on the jointing process with the hinge pin removed and excess material left on the forward lump? I would appreciate hearing more on this if you could, thank you!


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