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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
.405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant
      #296402 - 06/03/17 11:31 PM

Some of you may be aware of my wildcat developed for the 1895 Marlin. It is based on the 7.62x54R case and shoots 300 grain bullets made for the .405 Winchester.

I immediately recognized the utility of such a rimmed cartridge for use in the Mosin-Nagant and Siamese Mauser. So, I decided to move in that direction, working first with the Mosin. After all, the .405 Grenadier is based on the very same 7.62x54R cartridge the Mosin-Nagant was designed for.

I acquired a proper rifle for the build and began to gather what I needed for the conversion. Then my attentions turned elsewhere and the .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant project was put on hold.

Here is my last post on it:

Quote:

Who is a good gunsmith in the USA with experience in opening the Mosin Nagant magazine for bigger cartridges?

I need to have the following rifle rebarreled in my .405 Grenadier caliber. It will be easy to find someone to do the barrel, bolt, and stock modification. But modifying a Mosin Nagant magazine is not the sort of thing that most gunsmiths will have done.








After sitting idle for too long, I have moved fast forward on this project. The above photos should now be labeled "BEFORE".

At this moment, the rifle is with Tom Jackson of Davenport, Iowa. I sent him a new bolt handle, sights, and some dummy rounds topped with various bullets by Swift, Hornady, Hawk, and Woodleigh in weights of 350gr and 400gr. The bullets were seated on the cannelure, and overall lengths were all well below 2.9" with room to spare.

Tom installed the items and rebarreled the rifle with a McGowen .405 barrel I had sent his way. Most importantly, Tom opened the magazine to accommodate the fatter cartridges.

I should have the rifle back in a few weeks, after bluing. But for a teaser Tom sent me this video showing how it feeds everything he throws at it. These are four dummies topped with a mixture of different bullets and weights.

http://vid712.photobucket.com/albums/ww1...zpsqkfwrxzn.mp4


Now it's getting interesting. Expect an update on this very soon. I already have some loads I am just dying to try out.

FWIW - A .405 Winchester with a 400 grain bullet loaded to standard overall length has a usable case capacity of about 52 grains of water. The .405 Grenadier with a 400 grain bullet loaded to 3.0" overall length, cannelure 1/4" beyond the mouth, has a usable case capacity of just over 53 grains of water. Yes, with heavy bullets loaded out the Grenadier holds the same, or even a bit more, powder than the .405 Winchester.

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lancaster
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #296414 - 07/03/17 06:29 AM

very interesting, looks like the maximum you can get out of the mosin

whats with a scope for the rifle? who made die sets? ch4d?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: lancaster]
      #296417 - 07/03/17 06:51 AM

Though these rifles can be scoped, I don't plan on scoping this one. The fixed sights on the new barrel are the same sights Winchester used on their Model 70 Classic Safari Express. It will be a 100 yard-ish rifle.

Regarding dies, I have been handloading, as in HAND loading, the cartridge for my Marlin. But I have had dies on order from Whidden since last year. They should be in hand in 3-4 more weeks. I'm going to have to see how they work out, dimension wise that is, because they were made from the drawing.

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93x64mm
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #296419 - 07/03/17 07:07 AM

Going to have some punch for sure Grenadier!
Interesting conversion as the 7.62x54mm round was a hot one in its day so you should be able to get up plenty of steam if loaded to the same pressure.
So how many heavies can she hold in the magazine & lastly are stripper clips available for these - you would imagine so?


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lancaster
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: 93x64mm]
      #296420 - 07/03/17 07:14 AM

I see no reason why the original Mosin stripper clip should not work with the .405 Grenadier



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: lancaster]
      #296422 - 07/03/17 07:24 AM

A stripper clip would work but you would only be able to load four of the five cartridges in the rifle.

Mosin-Nagants were made to take five rounds in the magazine with the bolt open. Closing the bolt chambers the top round and results in 4 down + 1 in the chamber. That makes sense for a military rifle. The soldier charges it with five rounds, closes the bolt, and it's ready to shoot.

The magazine alteration for the fatter .405 Grenadier cartridge results in the converted rifle holding 4 rounds with the bolt open and 3 down + 1 in the chamber with the bolt closed.

That is why you see 4 rounds in the video I posted the link to above.

A master of metallurgy could redesign, cut, weld, and form the bottom of the magazine into something bigger but the effort would be a lot of trouble to go to just to add another round to a sporting rifle.

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Grenadier
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #299002 - 14/04/17 02:40 AM

Here is the rifle. All work is completed. Yes, lancaster, the stripper clips work but again, only 4 rounds.

The cartridges are, clockwise from left: 400gr Woodleigh, 350gr Swift A-Frame, 300gr Barnes TSX, a 7.62x54R cartridge for comparrison, and 350gr Hawk.








I am in the process of finalizing several loads.

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~


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Daryl_S
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #299005 - 14/04/17 03:00 AM

Interesting round - will be wanting to hear the shooting results and ballistics, Grenadier.
Cool round!

Really nice job on the rifle, BTW.


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Daryl_S]
      #299028 - 14/04/17 12:17 PM

Here is a start. All bullets are .411" diameter. Barrel length is 25".

================================================================
Hornady 300gr SP, 54.7gr AR-Comp, 2.67" COAL -- 2,201 fps / 3228 ft lb
================================================================
Barnes 300gr TSX, 53.1gr AR-Comp, 2.9" COAL -- 2,131 fps / 3026 ft lbs
Barnes 300gr TSX, 54.7gr AR-Comp, 2.9" COAL -- 2,202 fps / 3231 ft lbs
================================================================
Hawk 350gr RN, 51.8gr AR-Comp, 2.9" COAL -- 1,966 fps / 3004 ft lbs
Hawk 350gr RN, 53.8gr AR-Comp, 2.9" COAL -- 2,044 fps / 3247 ft lbs
================================================================
Woodleigh 400gr RN, 46.5gr AR-Comp, 2.8" COAL -- 1,805 fps / 2894 ft lbs
Woodleigh 400gr RN, 47.8gr AR-Comp, 2.8" COAL -- 1,868 fps / 3100 ft lbs
Woodleigh 400gr RN, 49.2gr AR-Comp, 2.8" COAL -- 1,938 fps / 3336 ft lbs
================================================================

I have more loads to try with these bullets and others. After that I will be trying out loads for accuracy.

--------------------
~


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Daryl_S
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #299031 - 14/04/17 12:21 PM

Good power range for any NA game. About the same as a .45/70, but slightly flatter shooting.

I would have thought the round would do better - I am betting that it will.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Daryl_S]
      #299034 - 14/04/17 12:42 PM

All those loads were on the mild side. The case holds 73gr of H2O. With some of the bullets loaded out to 2.9" OAL the remaining case volume is the same or more than the remaining case volume of the .405 Winchester with those bullets. With the short Hornady 300gr SP, for example, the .405 Winchester has a good bit more usable case volume than the .405 Grenadier. But the Barnes TSX loaded to 2.9" in the Grenadier leaves 2 grains of H2O more usable case volume than the same bullet loaded to 3.1" OAL in the .405 Winchester.

I will be playing with more loads. The base cartridge is a 57,000 psi piezo CIP cartridge, same as the 9.3x62 and 8x57JS. The rifle was made for that as well. I prefer to stay well within the pressure limits of the case and rifle. I have no desire to shoot max loads. Still, I think 3500-3600 ft lbs is a reasonable expectation. We will see.

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #299039 - 14/04/17 02:34 PM

we know how strong the mosin action is since austria - hungary rechamber this rifles for the 8x50R in the great war https://gunsmagazine.com/the-first-squeeze-bore/

geting 405 Win. ballistic is anything you need

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3011
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: lancaster]
      #299040 - 14/04/17 05:34 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Great looking rifle and project Grenadier.
That stock is also something else!

AvagreatEastereh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Rule303
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Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #299041 - 14/04/17 07:48 PM

That has to be one of the best looking Mossie's I have seen. That round of yours has a lot of potential. It will be a great pig cartridge, and I would think Reed deer to Moose and bear.

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lancaster
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Rule303]
      #299042 - 14/04/17 08:00 PM

with 405 Win. balistic the sky is the limit



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (14/04/17 08:00 PM)


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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 349
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: lancaster]
      #299202 - 18/04/17 07:34 AM

Another 1895 .405 trophy taken with 400 grain Woodies at 2068 fps with +or- 1 fps deviation using a compressed load of 54 grains of TAC. In my 1895, strain gauge pressure was just under 50,000 PSI.


Sorry the link to the story did not work, so I dug up a picture:


The bullet entered just behind the rearmost left rib, passed through innards, heart, and out between the front legs; range twenty yards thanks to the DG PH and trackers.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

Edited by crshelton (18/04/17 12:19 PM)


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93x64mm
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: crshelton]
      #299220 - 18/04/17 05:20 PM

Slick function test....it's that quick you're flat out seeing them exit!
Should be a heavy hitter when put up to the same level as the 7.62x54R!


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crshelton
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: 93x64mm]
      #299697 - 27/04/17 12:39 AM

9.3 ,
I have no intention to shoot heavier 400 grain loads in my 1895 .405 WCF - it's kick is as bad as it's bite!
When is 3,700+ foot pounds not enough? With 400 grain solids, it is an elephant and hippo killer + a shoulder bruiser from the bench rest!

With 300 grain NF solids at 2250, it has taken 1500 pound water buffalo, bison, and with factory Hornady bullets, Nilgai, pronghorn, warthog, feral hogs, elk, deer, and in a few weeks, some more exotics(yet to be decided).

I see why Teddy liked the 1895 .405 it so much!

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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Grenadier
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: crshelton]
      #300227 - 08/05/17 03:35 PM

I am currently doing a little accuracy testing in the Marlin 1895 and a little more load work in the Mosin-Nagant.

In the meantime, this is the bullet lineup I have settled on in the .405 Grenadier Mosin Nagant:





More to follow.

--------------------
~


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #300897 - 28/05/17 04:23 PM

These are the fruits of the latest labors loading the .405 Grenadier cartridge in the Mosin Nagant. I wanted to give the rifle and cartridge a decent wringing out. The berm of my pistol range looks like I've been throwing grenades at it and, I will tell you, I am sore.

Here are several loads using a variety of 300gr, 350gr, and 400gr .411 caliber bullets from Barnes, Hawk, Hornady, Swift, and Woodleigh. I used IMR 3031, Accurate 2495, Alliant RE-7, and Alliant AR-Comp. I got some pretty decent velocities. Many of the top loads were yielding muzzle energies of 3300-3600 ft lbs.




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Igorrock
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #300922 - 29/05/17 05:10 AM

Here in Finland we have occasionally for sale cheap old russian contract Winchester 1895's which mostly have opened to 8,2x53R or 9,3x53R. This .405 Grenadier would be nice add for this caliber assortment.

This, for example, in original caliber and quite good condition, costs 590



--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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lancaster
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Igorrock]
      #300925 - 29/05/17 05:55 AM

american military rifle collectors will kill to get it, igorrock!

you only need a cargo vessel from helsinki into the estado unidos for cheap transport

being a reasonable maximum in the mosin action I can see a decent future for the .405 grenadier

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: lancaster]
      #300967 - 30/05/17 02:47 AM

I was running some ballistics tables today.

the 400 grain Woodleigh SN bullet at 1950 fps from the muzzle:
- has over 2600 ft lbs energy (3525 joules) at 100 yards
- has over 2000 ft lbs energy (2712 joules) at 200 yards
- and still has over 1000 ft lbs energy (1356 joules) at 500 yards!

What's not to like?

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93x64mm
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: Grenadier]
      #300976 - 30/05/17 06:10 AM

Just realised that the OAL for a .303 is about 3.0", so you could put this round in a No4 & you'd certainly get a few more rounds down in the mag & really get amongst the pigs!

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Daryl_S
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Re: .405 Grenadier Mosin-Nagant [Re: 93x64mm]
      #300980 - 30/05/17 07:54 AM

Hell of a good idea putting it in a #4. Just happened to have one sitting at idle in my lockup. Currently, a .312 Express (.350 Rem Mag necked to .312), but opened to .416 might be a good idea.
That particular round is now called the 10.6x51. 300gr. at 2,300fps+ and 330gr. at 2,200fps +. Trim to length is 2.00". A lighter, stubby 275gr. bullet reaches 2,450fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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