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NitroXAdministrator
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Punt gun
      #281442 - 24/04/16 04:28 AM

https://web.facebook.com/SnipersAndRifles.official/videos/1770499639840756/

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D_the_D
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Re: Punt gun [Re: NitroX]
      #281464 - 24/04/16 04:04 PM

You see them in the museums around the Chesapeake Bay and a few of the really, really old seafood or crab houses in Maryland. They were used for commercial waterfowl hunting from little low lying boats (punts). They'd take out large numbers of birds sitting on the water or just landing usually. The birds were mostly shipped to NY City.
Maryland law still lists them as an illegal device, though they haven't been common since at least the 1920s.

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Rule303
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Re: Punt gun [Re: D_the_D]
      #281465 - 24/04/16 07:55 PM

I have never witnessed one in action, that was massive.

The old club house at the Melbourne, Williamstown range had a couple on the walls and one of the wall guns from the Boxer Rebellion. Literally killed at both ends. Wonder what happened to them when they closed the range.


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SAHUNT
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Re: Punt gun [Re: Rule303]
      #281479 - 25/04/16 02:47 AM

Impressive

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Daryl_S
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Re: Punt gun [Re: SAHUNT]
      #281481 - 25/04/16 02:57 AM

A 1 1/2" bore punt gun would use up to 3 pounds of #3 or #1 shot for the duck meat market. I do not know what the powder charge was, however standard American #3 shot count is 108 to the ounce, 72 for #1.
The record for ducks killed with a single shot, is I think, 128. The range for the flock was 90 to 110yards from the punt.
The gun was aimed some 4' above the water at the middle of the 'flock', so the birds, startled by the smoke cloud, would rise into the shot cloud passing over and of course, into the water as well, hitting those still sitting on the water.

Do the math.

108x16 = 1,728lb x 3 = 5,184 #3's to 3 pounds.
72x16 = 1,152lb x 3 = 3,456 #1's to 3 pounds.

Quite a cloud of shot.

Very impressive.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Punt gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #281497 - 25/04/16 05:00 AM

Pity they did not show a video of the punp gun from the side. Also at the ranges punp guns were used against waterfowl and laid out like a floating flock. Would be interesting to see how many clays would be broken then.

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Daryl_S
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Re: Punt gun [Re: NitroX]
      #281504 - 25/04/16 09:02 AM

It would - no choke, of course, in the percussion guns.

The bigger bored punt guns were cap-lock of course, but Greener's book shows a ctg. version. I do not know the gauge. I expect the 'rack' of birds could be quite wide and high as well.

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Daryl


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Daryl_S
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Re: Punt gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #281507 - 25/04/16 09:16 AM

The wall guns of the flint and percussion era might have given rise to the idea of punt guns.
They were of large bore, and were mounted on pintle on the fort walls. Too, they would shoot fairly well due to the large bore sizes, rifled or not.

Reminds me of a 4 bore underhammer 'gun' my brother built for a fellow who wanted a large gun, but bigger than the Billinghurst & Verner underhammer match rifles in Robert's book. I wanted T. to line it with a large bore slug barrel, .50 or .60 cal for shooting huge elongated bullets, but that didn't happen. The fellow who ordered it did not want the added price.

As it was, we made a couple moulds out of hard-rock maple to cast 1" balls of pure lead - around 1,750gr. The barrel was 2 1/2" across the flats, some 40" long and the gun weighed 52 pounds as I recall.

With tang mounted aperture sight and post front, along with the 12 dram charge and patched round ball, we were able to shoot very close to a 3 foot group on the 300 (+10m from target stand to berm) meter berm. It certainly would do for a man on a horse at that range. I recall a fairly large amount of dirt and rocks moved at the embankment, at each shot. The gun (& your shoulder behind it) would move backwards some 12inches at the shot. It could not be stopped, and simply slid backwards. You could not say it kicked, but just moved on the bags, with or without you behind it, perhaps a bit more on it's own with just a hand on the butt. Mid 80's iirc.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: SAHUNT]
      #281527 - 25/04/16 01:25 PM

more punt guns videos

american muzzle loader, punt guning became illegal in the 1890s there

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwbcVbE9rw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg85k28b_dM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAIQyVvINU

britsh, still in use

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9r_ZckAmkc


interesting muzzle loader using two caps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxCQInU1tM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwEwF7VAaEA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHXV3RrN7Ag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR83D7RQMtw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_1pg1K-zag

french made Darne canardiere 45 mm breech loader

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvcHuV4LEFs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pO_mYS4_Y

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Daryl_S
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Re: Punt gun [Re: lancaster]
      #281552 - 26/04/16 01:49 AM

Good links, lancaster.

I feel compelled to comment here on one of the gun loads used, the muzzleloading gun with 2 caps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYxCQInU1tM

Pyrodex, now that was a funny clip. The big gun the fellow loaded with Pyrodex with the double musket caps for ignition, was originally a flintlock and was converted to use caps to ignite the pan powder.

He should have put a small amount of real black powder down first, then the rest of the charge could be the phony powder.
due to the 17% composition of chlorates in Pyrodex, it's fouling is very corrosive.

Too, Pyrodex has a very much higher ignition temperature requirement than real black powder and that is why, with the 1/2-assed conversion to cap-lock, the gun missed fire so many times. He put more and more powder into the pan, but no flame was directed into the vent hole to ignite the phony powder. For the same reason, flint-lock guns loaded with Pyrodex do not generally manifest their charge without 'salting' the main charge with black powder loaded first as a starting charge, just the same as the older BIG cannon use today, to set off the main charges.

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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #282738 - 22/05/16 02:14 PM

coming back to punt guns,








http://xtremeidaho.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/11/PuntGunWeb-e1416899154106.jpg





http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/outdoor/punt-gun/60981529/

cartridges for punt guns is one my interests and I still looking for some of them
http://municion.org/ having some informations about
I am not sure about the american made 1 ga and 3 ga paper shells, they are very short and I have never seen a breech loading punt gun chambered for them but maybe someone her knows more about. I believe they were made for saluting cannons what was very common still after WW 1 especially on yacht's.
imho, punt guns were banned in the united states before the advent of breech loader.









1 ga



3 ga


the most common chamber was the 1 1/2" cartridge












http://www.warstuff.com/Scarce-Inert-English-4-Bore-Punt-Gun-Brass-Windo-i1555726.htm






here in the 1904 eley catalog




the 1 1/2" shell was adopted by britain for signal flare pistols in the great war when the the common 4 ga was not enough anymore. this way it still exist as the 37mm , sometimes called 38 mm case for tear gas grenades and similar special stuff. I think its still possible to use the 37 mm case in old punt guns.



1 1/2" Eley 6" long made in the 1970s, 37 mm case 8 " long, 4 ga plastic case, different 26,5 mm signals flare cases



the 32 mm or 3ga punt gun cartridge was made in France and Italy and was probably used only there






here in the 1926 Fiocchi catalog





this Fiocchi catalog is also interesting because it having two different 4 ga and 8 ga shells, a british and a french version









there is no other reference for a special french 4 ga and 8 ga shell. iirc, the only thing is that french signal flare ammo in the great war was not fit in german pistols but german made 26,5mm signal flare ammo was fit in french pistols . when I compare the french 4 ga dimensions here with the british 4 ga it looks like a halfway between this and the german 26,5 mm signal flare cartridge.

british made signal flare pistols are chambered for the common 4 ga 4" long shotgun shell at least up to 1945.

Edited by lancaster (22/05/16 02:51 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: lancaster]
      #282740 - 22/05/16 02:45 PM

a unknown cartridge was used in this punt with a snider action



















John Padstone/Southampton, its coming from ireland some years ago.

I was making cases for this with once fired 23x152 Belted Russian machine gun steel cases. here with a 4 ga plastic shell







chamber measurments of the snider punt gun:
40mm rim
36mm base
33mm mouth
155mm length

another snider with a south african address "C.G.Bales" was sold some times ago. the pic here shows it have checkering and express sights whats is very unusual for a punt gun.
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-95039119...africa-xix.html

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-95039131...africa-xix.html

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/05/16 10:33 PM)


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TH44
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Re: Punt gun [Re: lancaster]
      #282765 - 23/05/16 08:33 AM

Apologies if I have posted these pics before, this was in Holt's auction a couple of years ago







about 1 1/2' bore IIRC

made about GBP7,500

TH44


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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: TH44]
      #285042 - 11/07/16 02:52 AM

time to train your rusty russian

russian hunting tv show, first 5 minutes about punt gun with a lot of unknown pics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl4f0PQnn0A

anyone ever heard about or see the "shot- mitrailleuse" by Pieper in Liege?




this monster must have been developt around 1890, having seven 12 ga shotgun barrels drilled in one massive piece of steel. every round was loaded with 7 gramm BP and 60 gramm shot so a little bit longer than the usual 65mm long case.
it was possible to fire one barrel after another just by pulling the trigger or when you need it all seven barrels at once.
wonder if such a beast still exist somewhere.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Punt gun [Re: lancaster]
      #285093 - 12/07/16 04:28 PM

Quote:

time to train your rusty russian

russian hunting tv show, first 5 minutes about punt gun with a lot of unknown pics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl4f0PQnn0A

anyone ever heard about or see the "shot- mitrailleuse" by Pieper in Liege?




this monster must have been developt around 1890, having seven 12 ga shotgun barrels drilled in one massive piece of steel. every round was loaded with 7 gramm BP and 60 gramm shot so a little bit longer than the usual 65mm long case.
it was possible to fire one barrel after another just by pulling the trigger or when you need it all seven barrels at once.
wonder if such a beast still exist somewhere.




At first glance I would say that's a harpoon gun??? But if the comments are accurate, a very different punt gun. And I see your comment about it having seven barrels! If fired all at once, would one want to have one's shoulder against the stock butt ???!!!

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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: NitroX]
      #285166 - 14/07/16 04:09 AM

I have no doubt about it

another interesting punt gun - volley gun is this french model having 24 barrels in 22 lr



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l190/jpg06f/canardiere.jpg

no doubt some kind of mitraileuse



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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (14/07/16 04:10 AM)


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Joshua
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Re: Punt gun [Re: lancaster]
      #286548 - 17/08/16 10:14 AM

Simpsonltd had one for sale recently

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simonsaorsa
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Re: Punt gun [Re: Joshua]
      #286572 - 18/08/16 07:08 AM

A friend of mine still uses his for waterfowling here in Kent on the Thames and Medway estuaries. Our waterfowling club held a training day for kids a couple of years ago and he brought it along for a demo firing from its trailer. Boy did the kids(and their dads and us helpers) love it when it was fired - albeit a blank of course.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Punt gun [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #286584 - 18/08/16 05:51 PM

Quote:

A friend of mine still uses his for waterfowling here in Kent on the Thames and Medway estuaries. Our waterfowling club held a training day for kids a couple of years ago and he brought it along for a demo firing from its trailer. Boy did the kids(and their dads and us helpers) love it when it was fired - albeit a blank of course.




Correct me if I am wrong? I always thought the British punt guns were large bored single barrel "cannons"? Rather than multiple barrelled punt guns as lancaster displayed?

Just for my own education, thanks.

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TH44
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Re: Punt gun [Re: NitroX]
      #286600 - 19/08/16 08:36 AM

John

To the best of my knowledge you are correct, I have never seen, read or heard of multiple barrelled guns used here (that is not to say they did not ever?)

The number of shot/pellets in a single barrel would exceed multiples (unless each barrel held many shot)
and would be unnecessarily expensive and complicated, even Lancaster's multiple "Russian" 12 bore

The very specialised guys doing this type of shooting would stick with what they knew worked, although the Continentals could be otherwise

I have read the Somme Estuary was a prime site in years gone by

Tony


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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: TH44]
      #286668 - 21/08/16 05:29 AM

the 24 barrel .22 lr volley gun is clearly named "canardiere" what is the french equivalent for punt gun so it was fixed on a boat and used for shooting geese at long range.
I am looking for a while for punt guns outside of great britain. know it for sure this was done in France and Switzerland maybe also in the Netherlands and Belgium. the 4 bore pinfire fowler I saw in Denmark telling its maybe possible they do it there too and Fiocchi in Italy was making the 32mm puntgun cartridge.

Punt guns became forbidden in Switzerland in 1962 but some areas were lazy so it last some time after.

here is a muzzler loader in a swiss mueseum, forget where I found it





here a 1,5" / 37mm french Manufrance punt gun in the Swiss Hunting Museum Schloß Landshut
http://www.schlosslandshut.ch/index.php/galerie.html









the bycicle trigger was a modification made by the last owner

older french muzzler loader fowler between 12 and 4 ga are very common but it was maybe under british influence they go to realy boat cannons. Manufrance made them in caliber from 4 ga up to 1,5" or 37mm






some saw action as fighter airplane gun





nice old postcard showing a french punt gunner http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/321/822/752_001.jpg




think this is from Greener's book "The Gun and its Development"








http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2989145/posts















Edited by lancaster (21/08/16 05:53 AM)


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Punt gun [Re: lancaster]
      #286755 - 22/08/16 06:29 PM

See above posted photo: Cowbit, (pronounced "cob-bit"), is between Crowland, where I lived and shot fen-land pheasants and the odd wild duck, and Spalding, that I often visited. There's a good gunshop in Spalding called Elderkins that used to have a few 10 and 8 bores and sometimes the odd 4 bore. I didn't know then about the punt-gun-salute, but apparently they still do it at Cowbit. You'll see it on You Tube.

I did get to see the duck decoy near Crowland, a 4 centuries old pond and decoyman's thatched roof house with duck nets/traps running off each pond "pipe". The Borough Fen Decoy is now run by the Wildfowl Trust and is not open to the public except perhaps on special request. There's a punt or two on display in village museums around the nearby coast past the Wash.

There's a punt-gun and it's gun-punt, (the boat), on display at Kasteel Doorwerth hunting museum near Arnhem in Holland. The square-backed punts in the French photos (above) remind me of one I saw in a hunting book for sale in France. It was taken at Bordeaux harbour and looked just like a scull boat of the type the Americans use. With all the French that settled at Louisiana, I think they must have introduced it there. I stayed beside the same harbour where they still use tethered call-ducks to call in the wild birds. They must have been bred to be talkative as they kept me up all night!

There's a good book called The Outlaw Gunner by Harry M. Walsh that describes their use long after such guns were made illegal in the USA. The James A. Mitchener fiction book Chesapeake borrows from the earlier work and both are good reads. In it, one guy buried his punt gun, when not in use, in a covered vertical hole in his front yard. The idea was, "most visible, least seen". Anyway the game warden came around and asked the family where Dad was. Since he wasn't in, the warden said he was just going to sit right down on that cover in the front yard and wait for him to return. The kids, who knew exactly what was beneath him, were nearly sick!

A few punts are still in use in the UK where they are still legal. But the cost of bismuth shot in such large quantities is tough. One guy, a gamekeeper here in NZ for a while, used to punt at home with his Dad using a punt gun they improvised. Another Englishman living here now got to make a punt gun from scratch with his class studying engineering in the UK. They then all got to go out in it one at a time with their teacher when it was finished. Dave said it was the coldest he's ever been! He's still a duck shooter, but he's not to keen to ever go punt-gunning again. I'll happily take his place!


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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #287409 - 05/09/16 02:04 PM





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Punt gun [Re: NitroX]
      #287706 - 11/09/16 03:22 PM

first punt gun I see with a front sight
http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...5&saletype=

"A 1 1/4in. BREECH-LOADING PUNT-GUN, UNSIGNED, no visible serial number,
circa 1900, with brown painted 99 1/4in. barrel, ramp fore-sight, twin 'cotton-reel' side trunnions, dark walnut tiller butt opening on a swing-bolt, central pull-back cocking piece and guarded trigger, 110 1/2in. overall, with spare firing pin assembly and assembly tool"







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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HeymSR20
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Re: Punt gun [Re: lancaster]
      #288754 - 06/10/16 08:26 AM

Punt guns are still in use in the UK. Not common, but most wildfowlers will know of somebody who has a punt gun, or a large 8 bore shoulder gun. The skill of getting in to 30 yards of a flock of geese with a gunning punt is immense, and being out in a gunning punt on most British estuaries in middle of winter also takes some serious skill and knowledge. Tides can be viscious.

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