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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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zgunbear
.224 member


Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun
      #280497 - 07/04/16 11:48 PM

Is there a way to tell if a shotgun will make a decent roundball gun?
Any way to measure? Or is it a crap shot. I was thinking of 24 to 25 inch barrels with express sights.


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18146
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #280518 - 08/04/16 03:58 AM

It's a crap shoot, however, I am certain you have a good chance on getting any decent side by side to shoot well with round balls due to the low velocity and such a wide opportunity for changing ball size, wads, thickness and style, crimp style and so many useable smokeless powders let alone 3 granulations and 2 to 4 different makes of black powder. Yeah- there are many more variables available for loading round balls in shotshells than there are for loading rifle ammo for any given rifle.
It may take some experimentation, but I am sure you can do it with just about any decent "pelter".
I would try the 12 bore first, but a 20 bore would work fine I suspect for shooting State's Side.
I would also chose a gun with a raised solid rib for dovetailing or drilling and tapping for a base for attaching sights.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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zgunbear
.224 member


Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #280520 - 08/04/16 04:16 AM

Raised rib, 2 locking bites, and a dolls head extension, are these good attributes to look for? Any brands to stay away from or to look for? I have the mold to cast the 12 gauge giant airgun pellet and if I can find it the mold to.cast .720 round balls.

Edited by zgunbear (08/04/16 04:23 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Posts: 18146
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Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #280536 - 08/04/16 06:55 AM

This 'ball' holder is made from a steel shot wad. The inside base of the steel shot plastic wad is nicely cupped, with an expanding base powder-cup on the bottom. These will hold the ball in the middle of the bore in a smoothbore for it's trip down the barrel, as well as taking the rifling in a rifled gun. The best part of this, is you can use balls from 16 bore, to 12 bore in these cups, in a 12 gauge gun, with also varies the weight, recoil and velocity for regulation possibilities, form 16 bore at ,662" up to .730" - or whatever your bore happens to be. Additional wads can be placed between this wad and the powder, depending on type of crimp and load used.




Here is a group, re-printed from Greener's book of a smooth 8 bore SXS shooting balls at 60yards.



Here's a break-down on ammo with an old Mossberg pump gun.



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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #280733 - 11/04/16 12:36 PM

Got a donor gun. It is choked cylinder and modified. shot some commercial slugs and some of the Lee giant pellet slugs today at the range. Just using the crappy bead I was able to put five of the lee slugs into a hand sized group at 25 yards. The range owner put two through the same hole. Currently it has 30 inch barrels I am thinking about cutting them to 25 inches then mounting sights. seems I might have a poor mans .720 smooth bore nitro express soon. Have to decide in sights soon. Don't know if I want an express style sight or a peep with a beaded blade front. both types have appeal. I can shoot a peep sight fast and accurately. That is what I have on my 45-70 side by side rifle. Oh well decisions, decisions, decisions

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sharps4590
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Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 115
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #280739 - 11/04/16 08:33 PM

zgun, I have always read that cylinder bore and the more open chokes generally shoot slugs and round balls best if that is of any help. I do know my 20 bore flintlock fowler with its cylinder bore barrel shoots about like a rifle out to 50 or so yards with a PRB. None of my choked drillings and combination guns shoot slugs worth spit.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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zgunbear
.224 member


Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: sharps4590]
      #280740 - 11/04/16 10:42 PM

Yeah that is the primary reason I am going to cut the barrels back from 30 to 25 inches. The secondary reason is the gun is pretty front heavy with those long barrels.

Edited by zgunbear (11/04/16 10:48 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18146
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Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #280746 - 12/04/16 02:46 AM

Mind you, this was my 1900 era Husky with straight rifling, at 32yards, with simple notch rear and bead up front.




My best accuracy, obviously was with undersized round balls and thick denim patches (12 ounce), lubed with neetsfoot oil.

First target with crimped round balls of .684". Card and fiber wads to fill space. All with 3 drams 2F GOEX. (27.3gr. per dram)



Note, the rifled barrel had .705", groove to groove and .675" land to land - very deep, straight rifling.
These are all the straight rifled, right barrel only.

y

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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sharps4590
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Reged: 09/03/16
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Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #280752 - 12/04/16 05:27 AM

I would say that's pretty fair!!! Well done, sir!

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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zgunbear
.224 member


Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: sharps4590]
      #281463 - 24/04/16 12:44 PM

I got the barrels cut down and the holes drilled for the sight bases. However the screws are 6-48 and I only have a 6-32 tap. It surprised me that there were no places locally to buy one on a Saturday in this part of Tennessee. I plan on getting the tap Monday and will try to post up pictures after I get a chance to shoot it next week end.

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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #281835 - 02/05/16 01:34 PM

finally some pictures:
The donor gun with 30 inch barrels

Sight Bases installed

Close up of rear sight base

Completed Gun?

First Target

I opened the crimp on some bulk Federal 1 1/8 game loads I put some of the Lyman 525 grain slugs in some and some .690 round balls in a few.
The Lyman slugs grouped right and left but 3 inches separating the the two groups.
The .690 round balls stacked with the holes touching at 25 yards.

I could shoot more because the rear sight detent could not handle the recoil. The rear sight slide decided it wanted to move forward under recoil.

I think it shows potential just have to get a working rear sight and do load development.

Edited by zgunbear (02/05/16 01:37 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18146
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #281840 - 02/05/16 11:42 PM

Individual barrel groups with the Lyman slug groups are great!

Now it's time to handload some and tighten up those groups. Lyman's latest shotshell manual has good loads for that slug that should bring the tubes together, as-in loads to 1,550fps or a bit higher. That will handle about anything you need to shoot as that about duplicates the heavier round ball black powder loads for the 12 bore, according to Greener's book.

If you follow Ed Huble's thread, there are loads in there that
will increase your 'power' even more, but more care must be used with Hodgdon's Longshot and AA Steel powders.

Seems to me, Lyman also has some Longshot powder loads, along with Herco, Blue Dog and Unique.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #281859 - 03/05/16 10:07 AM

I was more impressed with the round balls. Hit in the back at 9 and 10 o'clock almost touching.
I guess I could work on both loads.
I already have the Lyman mold just need to buy the .690 round ball mold
Has anyone tried the synthetic corks from wine bottles as a spacer in the wad under the ball?

Edited by zgunbear (03/05/16 10:43 AM)


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1053
Loc: fla
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #281959 - 06/05/16 12:02 PM

Was thinking of a 20 gage rifled slug barrel with a 24gage chamber ballistic products sells brass cases and have a 600ne.think id run black powder though.be way cool in an 870 Remington.or an auto 5 browning

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
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Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #282311 - 13/05/16 12:04 PM

Okay to make the barrels shot closer together I need to up the Velocity right?
If I go too far with velocity they will cross I think. So I am looking for the sweet spot where the right and left group are almost touching but not overlapping.
All I need now is for the roundball mold I ordered to get here. then I will do some casting and start working on roundball loads and .525 Lyman slug loads.


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18146
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Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #282322 - 13/05/16 01:49 PM

My .58 Kodiak uncrossed with more powder, then crossed again with too much. I did not increase further to see if they would uncross again - THAT result would have been interesting.
Nominal size for a 12 is .730" = bore size unless it is oversized as many new ones are.

I used a .684" in my own 12, but today, I have .705" and .724" moulds, as well as access to a .715". That one casts 1 1/4oz. at 545gr. in pure lead.

I need to do more testing, myself.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #282521 - 17/05/16 12:38 PM

My new rear sight got here today so now I can start experimenting again. My bores mic out to .722 so they are tight. Ordered a .680 mold and some brush wads I have some primers left from when I used to do a lot of shotgunning. I also have some Bluedot just have to wait until I can cast some balls and weigh them. I will be using a bunch of shot I took out of federal shells for the first batch. One of the members at the range I work at sells lead ingots that are wheel weight so I will use them eventually.

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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18146
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #282550 - 18/05/16 01:07 AM

A WW ball of that size should weigh in the 466gr. vicinity.

If you can make or alter a wad to act as a cup to hold the ball central in the bore, your accuracy should improve. In a rifled tube, the wad will 'take' the rifling and spin the ball with it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
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Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #282637 - 19/05/16 10:55 AM

What length did u cut your barrels too ?

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
Posts: 35
Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #282639 - 19/05/16 01:16 PM

24 inches was going to do 25 but 24 felt better. It balances close to the hinge pin. I have a Baikal 45-70, I know not the best double rifle, that balances very close to the same point. The person that had the 45-70 before I got it added lead to the stock to add weight and help with recoil. worked on the barrel crowns last night for the slug gun trying to get them absolutely square. Slow hand file work take a couple of passes check take a couple more. I hope my mold gets here soon. Ready to figure out loads for this beast.

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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #282673 - 20/05/16 01:53 AM

The Lyman sabot slug is supposed to shoot quite well. It is a waisted affair - weighing about 506gr. in WW and 525gr. in pure lead. Buffalo arms is a carrier and compared to prices up here, quite inexpensive on Lyman moulds.

The slug fits a red WAA12R shot wad perfectly - probably others as well, depending on the load. Use shot data or get the new Lyman shotshell loading book with data for this slug- and/or go through Ed Huble's thread - 12 Gauge from Hell for data with AA Steel and other powders.

The Lyman book will get you into the 1,500fps range with 2 3/4" hulls.


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ducmarc
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Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Daryl_S]
      #283068 - 29/05/16 12:01 PM

Well I pulled out an old wards western field I've had for forever was thinking about sights and regulating it has anyone made an express rear sight wider with two notches one for left and one for right.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
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Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #283861 - 14/06/16 12:24 PM

Have started to assemble components. I have a 5 cavity .680 mold; I have Windjammer and Pink AA wads; and finally 1/8" 20 gauge nitro cards. The Pink AA wads with the .680 ball with a nitro card under the ball can be pushed through the bore but it is snug. It measures .725. my bores are .722. The Windjammer pushes through the bores very nicely with just a little pressure the slug wad and nitro car measure at .722 which is bore diameter. Now I just have to pick up some powder I think I am going to start at 18.5 grains Red Dot with a max of 19.5 grains.

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Wayne59
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Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: zgunbear]
      #283908 - 15/06/16 07:03 AM

I don't want to interfere here but that Red Dot load is a very popular 10ga load. I shoot 19gr Red Dot and 1 oz or 1 1/8oz shot in all of my 10ga's. You may send your pressure's through the roof in a 12ga.

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zgunbear
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Reged: 25/06/15
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Loc: Spring Hill, TN USA
Re: Want to make 12 or 20 gauge round ball gun [Re: Wayne59]
      #283927 - 15/06/16 10:53 AM

Couldn't find red dot so having to go with green dot starting with 17.5 grains. Will work up slowly using chronograph.

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