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lancaster
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Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun
      #274663 - 06/12/15 04:24 PM

do you mind if I start a new endless archive thread? working a little bit about the Dreyse sporting gun and allways come to Berger/Fürst Pless guns because people misinterpret them as Dreyse guns. thats because they know still less about them than about Dreyse.
just a few guns now and I will bring historical material at a later date.

16/65 by A.Berger/Magdeburg
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Juxtapose-A-Berg...em-2567690.html




























17mm (16 ga ?)could be made for a needle fire shotgun cartridge
"Fürst Pless Gun" made by Victor Colette/Liege
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/42531373_a-rare-breech-loading-dreyse-type-double-barrelled-gun

"
Description

dating: third quarter of the 19th Century
provenance: Belgium
Smooth, round, juxtaposed, 17 mm cal. barrels, with rib signed "VICTOR COLLETTE LIEGE", foresight; needle bolt; wooden butt and fore-end with checkered neck and palm rest, iron mounts engraved with floral motifs, on the lower part the lever to open the barrels. Parts with superficial rust. To be cleaned.

dimensions: length 19 cm."





















J. Goehler/Berlin 16ga and 11,15x60R Mauser combination gun
again a gun needing a restoration
http://bazar.hunting-shop.cz/inzerat/54483-obojetnice-system-dreyse/











again not a Dreyse gun, this Fürst Pless gun, maybe jus a 12 ga with steel barrels and german proof looks very late, maybe 1895 -1900

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=526913591



























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (06/12/15 04:58 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #274664 - 06/12/15 04:41 PM

another J.Goehler/Berlin , 500 BPE double rifle
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....amp;Search=true



















































.

its easy to see that this Heinrich Barella 16 ga gun is just a modification of the Berger action















http://sportingclassicsdaily.com/issue/n...auction-company

"Rock Island Auction Company offered this ornate, deep-relief engraved and gold inlaid Barella double-barrel shotgun (Serial # 1539) at their sale this past weekend.

It’s a beautiful example of a needle fire shotgun made by Heinrich Barella of Magdenburg, Germany, who, at 24, attained the level of Master Gunmaker.

The 16-gauge has a 30 ¾-inch solid rib Damascus barrel, brown case-hardened finish and walnut stocks. It’s expected to bring $25,000-$40,000.

In 1844 Barella founded his firm, H. Barella Gewehrfabrik, in Magdeburg, Germany. In the mid 1860s he was a gunmaker to the Prussian Royal Court and by 1871, the Royal Court in Berlin. Barella’s clients included the King of Italy, the King of Romania and the Tsar of Russia.

There are two gold-wire inlaid bands on the muzzles and one on the breech.

The bottom of each barrel, under the forearm, is marked with the serial number “1539.”

The receiver and break-lever are relief-engraved with a floral scroll design, and the rear portion of the forearm depicts a dog flushing a bird on the left side and two deer on the right side.

The shotgun is in fine condition with the barrels retaining 50 percent of the original Damascus finish. The remaining metal surfaces have a smooth gray patina. At some point a protective coating was added to the metal surfaces and there is still some residue remaining in certain areas. Mechanically, it’s in excellent condition.

For more information, visit http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/57/lid/1714."

while this 24 ga double rifle/16 ga double gun by Heinrich Barella is a conventional Fürst Pless gun

http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/a...;db=kat51_s.txt







Edited by lancaster (06/12/15 04:55 PM)

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xausa
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #274682 - 06/12/15 11:59 PM

I am familiar with the name "Fürst Pless" only in connection with the hunting horn of the same name. What is the connection between him and the rifle which bears his name?

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: xausa]
      #274683 - 07/12/15 02:06 AM

Fürst Hans Heinrich XI von Hochberg (1833-1907) was the prussian court Jägermeister between 1872 and 1891

here in uniform









this was not some job giving honorary but he had a great knowledge about all aspects of hunting. Fürst Pless was working as some kind of first hunter in state and in this position he had an big influence.
to bring the old horn back into common use was his merit. in the 1870s the hunting horn had the last refuge in the military Jaeger units were it survive from the 18. century.
he preferred the Berger needle fire double gun action in a way this gun was called "Fürst Pless gun" and because of his position this action became fashionable. notice that this typ of hunting gun is rare if compared with Dreyse but its common to see best grade guns after 1870 with name's from Berlin because of the Pless example.

Pless castle in Silesia is a museum today , nice website http://www.zamek-pszczyna.pl/wz/en/index.html

you can visit it online



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/12/15 02:12 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #274721 - 08/12/15 05:04 AM

Here is another photo from "Wild und Hund " taken about 1875. It shows Heinrich XI, Fürst (=Prince) Pless with a single shot "Fürst Pless" stalking rifle.

Not every gun made to Rudolph Berger's coil spring – striker lock design are "Fürst Pless Guns". Berger's needle fire guns are not! Berger combined Gastinne's slide and tilt breech action (some years later used by Teschner-Collath too) with Chassepot's sealing cushions and his own striker locks in his needlefire guns. After the centerfire cartridges came into general use, Berger in Koethen and other gunmakers combined the coil spring striker locks with more conventional break open breech designs , as with the centerfire cartridge case the gas sealing features of Berger's needlefire design were not needed any more. I have seen such guns with Berger's locks combined with both Roux type and Lefaucheux double grip actions. These centerfire guns with Berger's locks were called the "Fürst Pless Gewehre".

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: kuduae]
      #274784 - 09/12/15 05:33 AM

thank you axel, you had shown the pic before but I dont remember where. reminds me on the famous pic of fredrick selous



do you know anyone have ever work about the Berger action in gun literature before? we simply lack the basics about this problem - who, when and where.

there was a Rudolf Berger in Köthen who start to copy the Dreyse needle fire guns in the late 1850s.
guns with his name are very rare and the only one I find now was this 11 mm needle fire pistol



http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/a...amp;db=S-50.txt

very similar to this Dreyse duelling pistols



then we have a A.Berger in Magdeburg in the 1870s, here an advertisement for garden guns dated 1877


no doubt the A.Berger who made the double gun above



so the question is if A.Berger in Magdeburg was maybe the son of Rudolph Berger in Köthen.
do you believe all of the german Fürst Pless guns were made for the trade by A. Berger, of course not the copy by Victor Colette.
iirc, Heinrich Barella who had two of this guns here was born also in Magdeburg so probably was well known with Mister Berger.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (09/12/15 05:35 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #274959 - 12/12/15 08:05 AM

found an older thread in the double gun forum http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=328096&page=1

Rudolph Berger in Cöthen , today Köthen, got a prussian patent for a new safety on needle fire guns in january 1859




patent for Coburg&Gotha in 1860



Rudoph Berger, court gunmaker for the Duke of Anhalt and the King of Prussia
needle fire double gun cost 95 Thaler



till now I dids not find an early Berger needle fire gun and its not clear what for a type of cartridge was used. proably the old Dreyse paper cartridge with the primer in front of the powder load because the original action allow much longer needles than neccessary for the later paper cartridge and center fire cartridge too. for obturation there must have been a short tube siting on the breech face to slip into the barrel.
Zimmer in his book "the hunting firearms" have a drawing showing a Teschner needle fire gun using the Berger cartridge.



this Speckhahn needle fire double gun with a different action showing this principle:







http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20shotgun..htm

the problem with Zimmers book is that there was a first edition in 1869 and a second in 1876. like todays gunwriter its obvious that Zimmer is writing also about things he had not seen in real life. when making the second edition things of the first and second edition were mixed wild into each other so there are mistakes like in CoTW!



the only version of the Berger gun he is showing is the 1869 up date version that was made maybe first time in 1867/68. it have the 1866 french Chassepot rifle method of obturation of the bolt by a segmented rubber ring which expanded under gas pressure and thus sealed the breech when the shot was fired.




the drawing shows the Berger shotgun paper cartridge with the primer glued on a carton cross in the base of the cartridge. as I say before the hole action of berger needle fire gun shows it was made for long needles reaching a primer between powder load and wad but there were allways problems with cartridges and needles to short so having the primer in the base would help.

Zimmer mention ( in 1876) that Berger was using also the Teschner center fire shotgun cartridge and Teschner using the Berger needle fire cartridge with rubber obturation for his gun when build as a needle fire action but this are things I can not prove now.
Zimmer also mention the "new" modification of the original Berger gun called "Fürst Pless Gewehr" prince Pless gun so it was known under this name in 1876.

Berger in Cöthen - System Patent Berger double gun, imho made in the 1860s



notice the hooks for case extration, maybe for the Teschner shotgun cartridge but in any case not a needle fire gun





















http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=328096&page=1

this must be a little bit later, again Berger in Coethen, System Patent Berger 16 ga ( or Teschner No. 4?) SN 1604

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11955570_dreyse-cartridge-collath-style-shotgun-by-berger
"An interesting and unusual German side by side 16 bore shotgun. Gun employs Dreyse style needle firing mechanism, and Rudolph Berger Patent action, which was to lead to the Teschner-Collath rotary underlever-opening action, in which a lever under the fore end is connected to a bolt that forces the barrel back against the standing breech, and pulls the barrel down to the action flat. Action, underlever, and tang feature a decorative scroll engraving. 28 inch twin barrels feature Damascus patterning under blued finish, and stock is of burled pattern hard wood, with pronounced cheek rest. Marked on action "SYSTEM BERGER PATENT," and "BERGER IN COETHEN" near breech, with serial number 1604. Bores are very good for the age, and blued surfaces are about 80%, with some thinning to a plum patina, and a hint of surface rust towards muzzle. Stock shows bruising and surface dings characteristic to years of handling, but is free of structural damage, and boasts a dark wood patina. Overall fine example. Caliber: 16 Bore Serial #: 1604"







this gun with the common center fire shotgun extractor









so this how th original Berger gun was looking but between 1870 and 1876 it was transformed into the Fürst Pless Gewehr and production must be going from Coethen/Köthen to a A. Berger in Magdeburg.

this Rudolph Berger /Coethen looks allready like the later guns







http://jagdwaffen.blogspot.de/2013/01/zundnadel-doppelflinte-system-berger.html


notice that the following guns have a different needle/firing pin bolt design that differs older from newer guns. no doubt added for cock and uncock by hand it was maybe inspired by the Mauser 71 firing pin nut.

old model




Fürst Pless Gewehr



Mauser 71 bolt




another center fire double gun showing the long way of the original needle action but now with firing pins
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=316793&page=2
with Ludwig Kloti/Leer on the rib, imho typical Berger quality














Müller in Gotha double gun, underlever in front of the trigger guard







a very late Drilling with top lever to select or cock for the rifle barrel?
R. Haetge/Berlin 16ga x16ga x 11,2x51R Kropatschek-Heissig (or 11,2x52R Schützen cartridge)
http://www.gunworkshop.co.uk/gunworkshop/for%20sale-rifle.htm



















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (12/12/15 04:10 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #275031 - 14/12/15 12:18 AM

About the history of the Berger family and the duchy of Pless: According to Kellner & Pape's "Bülex", a directory of the German guntrade, the first gunmaking Berger was Friedrich Wilhelm Berger. F.W. was the son of a Andreas Berger, forester to the princes in Pless. Up to 1847 the Duchy Pless belonged to a branch of the House of Anhalt – Köthen, one of the many small German principalities.(BTW, my own great-grandfather was a forester to Heinrich XI Fürst Pless too, 1880 to 1913) Andreas' son, gunmaker to the Köthen court, opened the family shop in 1827 and obtained full Köthen citizenship in 1830. He passed away about 1860.
F.W.'s son was Rudolph Berger, died 1894. During his travelling years, then necessary for bcoming "master", Rudolph worked for some time at the Paris shop of Gastinne –Renette, where he became acquainted with Renette's slide and drop, outside primed breechloading action. Albert Henry Marie Renette, obtained two French patents for outside primed guns with slide and drop action in 1820, way before Lefaucheux' invention of the break-open gun, 1834. Such capping breechloaders were called "Schnelladegewehre" = quick loading guns in Germany.In 1853 Renette's son in law and partner Louis Julien Gastinne obtained the French patent No.9058, showing this breech action on a hammer gun, intended to use inside-primed centerfire cartridges. Subsequently the patent agent Auguste Edouard Loradoux Bellford patented the same thing in Great Britain, patent No.2778 of 1853. Bellford assigned this British patent to Charles Lancaster, London. Lancaster popularized these hammer slide and drop action using the base-fire cartridge. Nowadays Renette's basic slide and drop action is most often ascribed to Teschner / Collath, as the Collaths of the Teschner company used this breech action on their guns up to the 1930s.
By 1859 Rudolph Berger was back in Köthen and took over his father's shop at Wallstrasse 19. Apparently he obtained an Anhaltian "patent" for his own needlefire guns. On his own design Rudolph Berger combined Renette's slide and drop action with his own coil spring / striker locks. Later he added Chassepot's rubber obturation seals to the breech design of his needlefires. when needlefires went out of fashion in the early 1870s, he redesigned his guns again to use "modern" centerfire cartridges of the Schneider – Daw type.
IMHO Rudolph Berger had most of "his" guns made by the Suhl guntrade. Other gunmakers combined Berger's coil spring inline locks with more conventional break-open breech actions like the lefaucheux and Roux. I will try to unearth some photos of such guns. All such centerfire breechloaders with Berger's inline locks were called "Fürst – Pless - Gewehre" then. Corneli in 1884 dismissed the Fürst – Pless – Gewehre as "outmoded and impractical".
Not much is known about "A. Berger, Magdeburg" except his address Bahnhofstr. 25 -27. He is mentioned 1884 as "Berger – Waffen". As first names in Germany often reappear over several generations, I suppose "A." was another Andreas Berger, most likely a son of Rudolph. His guns were probably also sourced from the Suhl guntrade.
The Köthen and Magdeburg Bergers are not to be confused with the Bergers from Witten on Ruhr, founders of the Witten steelworks. In the 1870s those Bergers had nearly a world monopoly on small arms barrel steel, with customers worldwide, among them Colt in Hartford. It may be a shock to some, but the barrel and cylinder of your "All American" Colt Peacemaker are of imported German, Berger in Witten, steel.

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kuduae
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: kuduae]
      #275033 - 14/12/15 12:38 AM

Some pics from various sources of Fürst Pless guns with Berger's inline striker locks and more conventional break-open breech actions.
From "Der Waffenschmied Summer 2011", a publication of the German Gun Collectors Association www.germanguns.com
Shotgun made by Gebrueder Rempt, Suhl. Berger's locks and double grip Lefaucheux breech action.


Flintenkalle's collection: Combination gun in 11.5x40R / 16. Berger's lock and true Roux breech action, single bite with round locking bolt, operated by underlever.


DWJ 6/1984: Single shot 20 bore rifle, signed by H.Barella, Berlin, 1860s. Berger's lock and true Roux breech action.

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: kuduae]
      #275111 - 15/12/15 07:20 AM

here was another Heinrich Barella sold by Bonhams once with Liege proof marks
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14917/lot/201/
A German 13-Bore Dreyse Patent D.B. Breech-Loading Needle-Fire Sporting Gun
By H. Barella, Königl: Hof-Büchsenm: Magdeburg U. Berlin, No. 1130, Circa 1880
With russet twist sighted barrels signed in full along the rib, serial numbered foliate scroll engraved action-chambers, the left one decorated with pheasants in a landscape, the right one with deer in a landscape, the barrels pivoting up for loading and the actions cocked by the foliate scroll engraved under-lever with spherical horn knob, figured butt and fore-end (cap missing), the former with cheekpiece, and dark horn butt-plate and trigger-guard, the latter with spur pierced with a scroll, Liège proof
75.3 cm. barrels



I would call it a transition model because its the middle between the older Berger gun and final Fürst Pless gun. in any case there is also another connection to Liege beside of the Victor Collette gun.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #275116 - 15/12/15 09:45 AM

Photo of an unknown German hunter with a Fürst Pless gun.

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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: kuduae]
      #275146 - 16/12/15 02:44 AM

Amazing guns - thanks lancaster & kuduae.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: kuduae]
      #275149 - 16/12/15 04:10 AM

Quote:

Flintenkalle's collection: Combination gun in 11.5x40R / 16. Berger's lock and true Roux breech action, single bite with round locking bolt, operated by underlever.




This gun, with interchangeable shot barrels, was made by "Möller & Kellner, Zella", 1869 - 1899.

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: kuduae]
      #275164 - 16/12/15 03:25 PM

had it before but find now better pics and its imho worth to safe them
the Heinrich Barella SN 1539 with 17,0mm whats probably the caliber in mm
http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=65451&iid=324619&aid=57























and thats also surprising me: A G.Teschner single shot rifle
http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=49416&iid=255610&aid=49
"needle fire" and in this case probably YES
the only rational reason why Teschner would build a "Berger" gun and not using his own action must be it shots the Berger paper cartridge with primer in the base like Zimmer is writing in his book " Berger is using the Collath shotgun cartridge and Collath use the Berger paper cartridge (sometimes)"











"Engraved Needle Fire Single Shot Rifle
Sold On 4/30/2010 For $2,587.50
The top of the barrel is gold inlaid "G. TRESCHNER IN FRANKFURT A/O. PATENT." and the top of the frame at the breech is engraved "WMA, SCHEK / IN / WIEN". The barrel is equipped with a front blade sight (filed down) and three leaf (two folding) rear sight. There is a lever mounted on the bottom of the frame that when rotated slides the barrel forward and then the barrel tips down for loading and unloading. The breech end of the barrel has a silver inlaid band and there is a wooded ramrod with brass trumpet head mounted on the underside and secured by two iron pipes. The frame, action, under lever, forend cap and trigger guard are engraved floral scroll and punch dot designs with the addition of animal scenes in an oval panel on each side of the frame and on the trigger guard. There is a horn extension behind the trigger guard, there are double set triggers and it is mounted with a smooth forearm and skip line checkered straight grip stock with a cheekpiece and a hard rubber buttplate. Approximately 60 small brass tacks have been added to the left side of the stock in simple straight line patterns."

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/12/15 03:26 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #275328 - 19/12/15 04:32 PM

so the Berger gun makes it also into the new world http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=530603418

I doubt - "Very rare gun from a rarely seen maker." - it was made in New Orleans. J.F.(Johann Friedrich ?)Dittrich was probably a german gunmaker who came to New Orleans and import german guns to sell it there.
proably came into the states between the american civil war and 1867-1870 when the Chassepot rubber opturation was adopted for berger needle fire guns.
again beautyful damascus barrels












SN 1003 on the butt plate










wood is not bad
























this 14 ga is a real needle fire shotgun with the old school long dirt chamber which slide into the barrels




























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (19/12/15 04:34 PM)

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TH44
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #275392 - 20/12/15 12:32 PM

Lancaster - Plus one for that Damascus - stunning!

Many thanks for posting such quality

TH44

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lancaster
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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #275698 - 27/12/15 09:50 PM

A Haetge /Berlin 16 ga SN 1424 sold by Holts in 2013 and Holts knows the Fürst Pless action but Collath must be mixed into this
"A. HAETGE (BERLIN)
A VERY FINE 16-BORE BERGER PATENT COIL SPRING STRIKER DOUBLE-BARRELLED TESCHNER-COLLATH SLIDE AND TILT 'FURST PLESS GEWEHR' BREECH LOADING SHOTGUN, serial no. 1424,
28 3/4in. nitro reproved bold damascus barrels with bolstered breech ends, raised matt rib with finely inlet carved bone fore-sight, tubes signed 'A. HAETGE. BERLIN. HOF-BUCHSENMACHER' and with a broad band of foliage carved at the breech end, 2 1/2in. chambers, bored approx. 1/2 choke in both, Teschner - Collath patent forward facing underlever-cocking slide and tilt action, recessed bosses with removable striker discs, Berger patent independent coil spring strikers of later centre-fire design (originally developed as needle-fire), set front trigger, finely-figured broad sculpted triggerguard and tang, the action and furniture carved in high relief with bold floral and acanthus scroll motifs, the rear of the plungers with fine starburst designs,13 3/4in. figured pistolgrip stock with cheekpiece, sling swivels, fine fluted edge horn pistolgrip-cap with inset escutcheon with feathered borders and gold-inlaid with the monogram 'WS', engraved steel heel and toe plates, weight 6lb. 12oz."
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a....00-c-a2b5296ada







and James D.Julia also brings the "Collath type forward lever, slide and tip action" into the description with the 16 ga /24 ga combination gun SN 948

"A. HAETGE, BERLIN 16 GAUGE/ 24 GAUGE COMBINATION NEEDLE-FIRE DOUBLE SHOTGUN WITH DEEP CHISELED ENGRAVING. SN 948. Cal. 16 ga/ 24 ga. Both 26-5/8″ Damascus bbls are smooth bored however top rib is fitted with one standing, one folding rear and front rifle sights. Rear portion of rib is gold inlaid “A. Haetge Berlin”. There are gold band inlays around breech framing relief acanthus scroll engraving. Collath type forward lever, slide and tip action is fitted with short, needle firing mechanism with sliding plungers to compress springs actuating needles. All metal parts except plain steel trigger guard, are engraved with very well cut, full relief, scrolled, large, acanthus leaves with nicely matted background. There is a deep checkered band around standing breech. Forward lever has horn tip. Finely marbled and lightly figured European walnut checkered, round knob, pistol grip buttstock measures 14-1/4″ over steel buttplate, with relief engraved leaf on top, and features swept right hand cheekpiece, and a sling loop on toe-line. Wooden forepiece is checkered. Bbl attaches to forend with screw through loop. Bore diameter: 16 ga left-.661, 24 ga right -.556. Bore restrictions: left -.000, right -.000. Wall thickness: left -.038, right -.045. Drop at heel: approx 2-7/8″, drop at comb: approx 1-3/8″. Weight: 7 lbs. 8 oz. LOP: 14-1/4″. PROVENANCE: Collection of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess. CONDITION: Very fine. Bbls retain most of their orig Damascus brown, with good definition to pattern. Action appears to have been coin finished, and has darkened considerably, mostly from accumulated oil and grime. Stocks retain most of their orig oil finish, with numerous marks and compressions. Bores are excellent. 4-53070 MGM320 (3,000-5,000) "
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-3159-a-h...ngraving-53070/











very unusual with the 16 ga /24 ga barrels if not James D.Julia forget the 24 ga barrel was rifled it was maybe bore smooth sometimes

A.Haetge sold not allways Fürst Pless guns here is a 16 ga Hammergun
SN 1085




http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/a...;db=kat59_s.txt

another A.Haetge SN 1275(?)

























and the last A.Haetge Hofbüchsenmacher now, proably another 16 ga.























http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Rifles%20of/Germany/Shotguns/Haetge/a%20haetge%20a%20gb.htm


and all this Prince Pless guns sold in Berlin only because of him




looks like 6.2.1886

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (28/12/15 02:01 AM)

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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #275720 - 28/12/15 04:22 PM

"A 16 BORE GERMAN D.B. DREYSE SYSTEM NEEDLE-FIRE SHOTGUN, BY F. W. HEYM, NO.571, CIRCA 1860 with rebrowned sighted barrels inlaid with the maker's initials in silver at the breech (worn), scroll-engraved case-hardened breeches, engraved case-hardened rotary-underlever action decorated with game bird vignettes on each side, engraved lever with horn knob, highly figured walnut half-stock, chequered grip, raised cheek-piece, horn trigger-guard, engraved case-hardened butt-plate, engraved steel fore-end cap, and a pair of engraved steel sling swivels 78.4cm; 30 7/8in barrels £300-350"
http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogues/AS260607/page14.htm



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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #276201 - 06/01/16 11:38 PM

not a Berger but this interesting Chr. Sturm in Suhl needle fire double gun made under a "Teschner Patent" and probably for Teschner himself its another gun with the typical Berger "crank" lever
http://www.medwed-hunt.ru/MedwedPosts.aspx?pid=129896&p=2

as I write before there is a connection between Berger and Collath because everyone use the special cartridge of the other.





























"C 7" Caliber 7? this would be than the Collath No 7 caliber, the gun looks very small













the similarities with this needle fire double gun with "Speckhahn" on the barrels are obvious
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20shotgun..htm



























there can be little doubt the gun sold by Speckhahn was made by Sturm in Suhl too





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/01/16 02:39 AM)

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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #276305 - 09/01/16 07:42 PM

this thread was startet to look for early needle fire Berger double guns beside of Dreyse which was the very first hammerless breech loader in 1856. but now I have again a very early needle fire gun with a Teschner Collath like design.
engraved "L. H. Bösenberg in Leipzig 1857" this very short double gun must be a very quick response to the Dreyse gun coming from Suhl.
gun is property of the military museum in Prague http://www.vhu.cz/cenny-exemplar-ve-sbirkach-vhu-lovecka-dvojka-predovka-s-jehlovym-udernikem/

in all it looks more like a muzzle loader but having similaritys with the Sturm and "Speckhahn " gun above














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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #276740 - 18/01/16 09:23 PM

the ways of the antik gun market are sometimes difficult to understand ...
the Berger/Magdeburg 16 ga for sale in france in the first weeks of december last year was in auction by Springers in austria in november
http://auctions.springer-vienna.com/de/d...;currentpos=207
nice pics, I safe it





















another early System Berger Patent in the possion of the Czech Army Museum Prague
http://www.vhu.cz/exhibit/dvojka-jehlovka-rudolf-berger-kothen-anhalt-kolem-1870/











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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #277010 - 23/01/16 09:19 PM

just a correction

this "Bösenberg" marked double gun is a muzzle loader for needle fire cartridges.
so the crank lever is only for cocking thew internal hammers and maybe for safe the action while loading.

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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #278212 - 20/02/16 04:58 AM

find the Victor Collette gun again, now for sale in czechia

http://bazar.hunting-shop.cz/inzerat/165714-historicka-brokovnica-typ-dreyse/











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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #278652 - 29/02/16 09:28 PM

wonder if there is a connection between the Bösenberg and this "H.G.Reif " muzzle loader needle fire double gun http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2298-369/

"SN NSN. Cal. 16 ga. .675 Bore diameter. This fine German creation appears to be based on Abraham Adolph Moser’s early muzzleloading needle fire patent, and has 31″ fine etched Damascus bbls with makers name “H. G. Reif in Leipzig” gold inlaid on raised, flat rib within silver inlaid scroll terminated device. There are inlaid gold bands and arabesque scroll at breech ends. The action consists of a pivoting lever with rotating silver knob mounted in forend, which when swung to the rear retracts long needle firing pins and cocks boxlock type internal hammers mounted above trigger plate. Action has pin type cocking indicators which protrude through breech iron, and studs with notches, one on trigger plate finial, the other in forend, which hold cocking lever in either front or rear position. In forward position mechanism can be fired. In rear position it is “safe”. This gun was made to fire a self contained combustible cartridge, similar to the Dreyse with priming behind projectile. Metal work is embellished with exceptionally fine engraving consisting of gold inlay accented shaded scroll on breech section with hound and hare chase scene on rib extension. Breech iron with more gold inlaid scroll has hunting scene of Jaeger with hound pursuing a fox. A hunting dog is gold inlaid on trigger guard, which has silver inlay of bushes in foreground. There are other gold accents on scrolled trigger guard, operating lever, and trigger plate finial. Steel trigger guard terminates in scroll carved ebony grip. Fine stump figured and lightly marbled European walnut stock features an ebony buttplate with molded sides, right hand cheekpiece, sliding patchbox, and sling button. It is embellished with excellent Germanic carving of acanthus leaves and flowers shaded by checkering at grip and with a greenman/ lion peering from each side panel. A full relief carving of hunting dog and various game is behind cheekpiece framed by acanthus scroll. Forend terminates in stylized wolf’s head with ebony and mother-of-pearl eyes. A brass headed ramrod is held by two plain pipes on bbl, one mounted with broad sling loop. CONDITION: Fine. Metal parts retain an overall brown to gray patina. Stock retains nearly all of its orig varnish finish with numerous minor marks and scratches. There is a small crack in left side panel. Carving shows light wear at grip, but is excellent overall. Cocking pivot base washer is an old replacement, and is loose. An exceptionally interesting German transitional gun of very fine quality, worthy of further study. 4-51429 MGM89 (3,000-5,000) "















they dont give this name but no doubt this is another A. Haetge Berlin "Fürst Pless gun"





http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-3261-hofbuchsenmacher-dreyse-double-barrel-needle-gun-31114/

"HOFBUCHSENMACHER DREYSE DOUBLE BARREL NEEDLE GUN. SN NSN. Cal. 12 ga. Most unusual dbl with 29″ Damascus bbls with a Damascus quarter rib & bands around muzzles with a wooden rib in between. It has sgl bead with a raised rear sight at back end. It is an under-lever operation which, when opened, cams bbls forward allowing them to tip forward for extraction. It has dbl cocking devices that must be depressed in order to fire. Right one is damaged and does not function. Receiver, cocking tube covers and all appended metal are wonderfully engraved with deep relief foliate & floral patterns with vignettes of four chukker on left side, three pheasants on right side, a raebuck on right cocking tube and a fox with a duck on left cocking tube. Breech end of bbls have matching engraving with two gold bands. Trigger guard is very elaborate & made of horn. Mounted with very highly figured French walnut with a tiny checkered forearm & straight grip with cheekpiece, 14-1/2″ over a very old collapsed red rubber pad. It has a sling stud on bottom of stock with corresponding ring on bottom of bbls. CONDITION: Good to very good. Bbls retain about half very dark Damascus pattern with remainder mottled Damascus pattern over front half. Receiver & appended metal are a dark patina. Horn trigger guard shows light wear and is completely sound. Wood is sound with a repaired gouge on right side and retains most of an old restored finish with dark oil staining on forearm & wrist. Right firing mechanism does not function, otherwise mechanics are fine, bright shiny bores with a few scattered spots of light pitting. 4-31114 JR286 (1,500-2,500) "











just compare it with this combination gun









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (29/02/16 09:43 PM)

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Re: Berger needle fire/Fürst Pless gun [Re: lancaster]
      #285318 - 16/07/16 09:10 AM

the 16 ga Barella double gun on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67MtOIgadX0

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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