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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Pretorius
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Reged: 22/04/15
Posts: 37
Loc: Sweden
Who invented the 270 win?
      #269275 - 15/08/15 09:27 PM

A friend of mine, Erich Binder, recently passed in Viena. A rifle in his collection was gifted to me while he was still alive, it was caliber 6.7x63 on what seemed to be an 88 action. I wish I had inspected it more closely, because his remaining family, got rid of his entire collection as if they had planned the operation long in advance, the offending ironmongery now scattered. Fat chance of me seeing this piece of history again. What I have is what he told me, which is this: The 6.7 x63 Neuber was born circa 1911 , produced by Franz Neuber and Sohn. It is often lumped together by historians with the 6.5x63, but it entirely different in that it uses the 277 bullet of the 6.8x57 Chinese Mauser. Around 1939, production of ammunition ceased, and my friends father used 270 win cartridges without a hitch, with whatever differences there might have been being so slight, that for practical purposes the cartridges were the same.
Understanding that the 35 Whelen is in fact the 9x63 miller and greis ( not to be confused with the 9x63 Mauser) and also originating a decade or so before the American version, leads me to believe that Winchester could easily have lifted the design from the Austrian moribund company. It's also possible that the idea could have seen light on both sides of the ocean.
One can't help but wonder??
The 458 win is in fact the 450 Watts short, the 416 rem is the 416 Hoffman with a tweak of a difference, so giving credit where credit is due, is not exactly a tradition. This brings us to the question, who really invented the 270 Winchester?
Any light on this subject will be appreciated

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Mr P

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Rule303
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Pretorius]
      #269307 - 16/08/15 05:06 PM

Interesting. Have not heard of the 6.7X63 or the 9X63 Miller and Greis. This is not surprising as I have not done a lot of research into older Euro calibres. We will probably never know if Winchester knew of these cartridges or both were developed independently of each other.

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lancaster
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Rule303]
      #269312 - 16/08/15 05:58 PM

I have heard of this but we need to see them side by side

--------------------
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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eagle27
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: lancaster]
      #269316 - 16/08/15 07:07 PM

The 270 Winchester cartridge as we know it was invented by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company back in 1923 and released in their Model 54 rifle in 1925.
Who knows if anyone had developed a cartridge based on the .277" bore size before that. Would seem strange that an arms company would come up with what is an 'odd' calibre although they may have decided to invent something between the 6.5mm and 7mm just to have a marketing difference.

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LSHopper
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: eagle27]
      #269321 - 17/08/15 12:43 AM

I can't remember where, but I recently read that Winchester tried to market the .270 in Europe prior to WW I. I do not know if this is accurate or not. If I can find the article I will post it's location.

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Pretorius
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: LSHopper]
      #269324 - 17/08/15 03:19 AM

Interesting topic. We know that the 404 and 500 Jeffrey cartridges were Schuler creations, marketed as Jeffrey creations by mutual agreement, for instance.Business tried to flourish, despite political tensions.....perhaps Winchester had a similar agreement with Neuber? I wouldn't be surprised. The Winchester would have had to be sold as "all American " after hostilities ended regardless, anything else would have killed the project. What we can be sure of, is that 277 bullets were used in both the 57mm and 63mm cases at least a decade before the 270 we know and love became Winchester, nuances notwithstanding. Be that as it may, the 270 win succeeded and the other two failed in the market.

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Mr P

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Homer
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: LSHopper]
      #269330 - 17/08/15 10:31 AM

Quote:

I can't remember where, but I recently read that Winchester tried to market the .270 in Europe prior to WW I. I do not know if this is accurate or not. If I can find the article I will post it's location.



G'Day Fella's,

LS Hopper, I read the same thing and I think it was in an article in the current issue of Rifle Magazine. If I remember correctly, it was an article about Jack O'Connor, and his love of the .270 Win along with it's history?

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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eagle27
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Homer]
      #269338 - 17/08/15 04:41 PM

I have a an early Handloader Digest with an article by Jack on the 270 Win, I'll dig it up and see if he had anything to say about it's birth.

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Sville
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: eagle27]
      #269342 - 17/08/15 06:53 PM

Interesting!

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Sville]
      #269377 - 18/08/15 07:45 PM

It depends on what you mean exactly by "who invented", but Wilhelm Brenneke invented the 7x64 Brenneke - a very popular, all round cartridge in Europe. The .270 Winchester was later based on it, but given a slightly different bore size so they wouldn't be interchangeable. The .280 Remington, that came much later, is even closer ballistic twin to the 7x64.

Having said all that, (which I think is acknowledged by historians), the 7x64 is designed for a much wider range of bullets, (the same range as the 7x57mm Mauser),and so the throat is quite different to that of the .270 Win., making it quite a different cartridge in practise.

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Pretorius
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #269401 - 19/08/15 08:53 AM

I understand what you're saying in terms of concept rounds. The 6.7x63 Neuber, the 270win, the 280 rem, 7x64 breneke, all have an initial concept in common, that much is plain. That the 6.7 Neuber preceded the others historically, might also mean nothing much, but, if my information is correct, and the 270 win and the 6.7 Neuber are interchangeable, then that speaks of plagiarism at worst and collaboration at best.

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Mr P

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eagle27
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Pretorius]
      #269415 - 19/08/15 04:56 PM

From an article published in the 8th Edition of Handloaders Digest, "Handloading for the 270" by Jack O'Connor, Jack states that the 270 Winchester came on the market in 1925 and he hunted with the 270 in a Win Model 54 in the first deer season it was on the market. He says he was one of the first owners of a 270 in Arizona and may have been the first man to shoot a deer with it in that State.

The O'Connor article is very good with much relevancy to the use of the 270 today.

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Homer
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Pretorius]
      #269416 - 19/08/15 05:07 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Pretorius54bn, I found the article and it is in issue #282 (Sept-Oct 2015) of Rifle Magazine (Wolfe Publishing), and I quote;
"For example, while pursuing Daniel L. Shuey's two-volume set, the "W.R.A. Co, Headstamped Cartridges and their Variations" (lots of cartridge and case drawings, but few photo's)there is a chapter in the back of the second volume titled "Dated Headstamps" that includes a prototype .270 WCF that was chambered in Winchesters "Imperial" series takedown rifles based on the Pattern 14 and 1917 Enfield (factory drawing dated 1/26/17 (26th January 1917, Homer)that was introduced in Europe in 1917. It didn't make much of a splash, apparently, being it was in the middle of World War I, and quite likely taken with a grain of salt, owing the "not invented here" syndrome that permeated the European market place for so many years. Either way, Winchester chambered rifles for the .270 WCF long before 1925. So it would be more proper to state that the .270 WCF was introduced to the United States in 1925 but first appeared in Europe, circa 1917."

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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eagle27
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Homer]
      #269443 - 20/08/15 05:32 AM

So it appears in the absence of any contradictory info that the answer to the OPs question is Winchester invented the 270Win?

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Pretorius
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Reged: 22/04/15
Posts: 37
Loc: Sweden
Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: eagle27]
      #269445 - 20/08/15 07:51 AM

Well, with patriotism aside, national pride, brand loyalty aside for a moment, let's look at the following compelling circumstantial evidence, which is at least enough to leave the matter open to speculation:
A 6.7 Neuber will chamber and fire a 270 win cartridge
The 6.7 Neuber was launched in Europe 1911
The 270 win was launched in Europe 1917
Neuber and Sohn were in financial trouble
Winchester don't name their designer
..........could be they bought it?

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Mr P

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Homer
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Pretorius]
      #269448 - 20/08/15 09:23 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Pretorius54bn, interesting information!
Well if Neuber first invented the 6.7 x 63/270 Win (as it appears), it wouldn't have been the first time Winchester purchased another persons design eh (see; John Moses Browning)!!!

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Homer]
      #269462 - 21/08/15 03:39 AM

I had a 6.7x63 built on a Mauser action dated 1907( Makers date on barrel) by a German named Otto Bock. The guy who had it before me had it since WW1 .It was identical to a 270 Winchester and i shot hundreds of 270 rounds through it before i sold it

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (21/08/15 03:40 AM)

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Northman
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #269463 - 21/08/15 05:27 AM

http://www.municion.org/270win/270win.htm

http://www.municion.org/6Mm/6_5x63Neuber.htm

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Pretorius
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Reged: 22/04/15
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Re: Who invented the 270 win? [Re: Northman]
      #269470 - 21/08/15 06:33 PM

Okay, so now we have a second witness who says the 270 can be fired safely in a 5.7 x63 Neuber chamber. I have seen it chamber, not fire,that makes three, and we have a page from a cartridge collector site that lumps the 6.7x63 with the 6.5x63 showing a picture of a nine whatever by sixty three. ........whatever...
Generally speaking I find gun guys a nice bunch, but the industry itself can be a bit lacking in giving credit where credit is due. For instance, the 450 watts jack Lott plagiarism. If there ever was a fraction of difference between the two, there isn't now. If you order a reamer in either, you will get the same part number. The 416 rem George Hoffman issue, same thing. George had no sour grapes, neither did Watts, they were both humble men. My point is gentlemen, a Picasso is a Picasso and it seems the 270 was not always Winchester, and a little more honour in the trade would be nice

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Mr P

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