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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Goodies at Holt's
      #257831 - 14/12/14 04:40 AM

I was at Holt's auction this week and took some (not very good) pics for your interest

This one for Curl .500 BPE by Holland & Holland, nicely engraved





Could do with a bit of a clean



£4200 GBP + 30 % = £5460

This John Dickson .500 - 3" BPE is exceptional, one of a collection by Charles Gordon a major collector - nearly 200 guns, of which 25 were double rifles, many only shot rarely usually in ths condition





£10,000 GBP +30%

This G Greener combination 16 bore X .450/400 is probably one of the only "Royal" grade Greener rifles









Very nice I did not see what or if it sold for, not in the list, possibly as it is legally a shotgun under UK law

Dreamworld



Unsold at £60,000 +



This .470NE H & H fetched £85,000 GBP + 30% = £110,500 - Curl?

I will post the monster Punt Gun elsewhere

Enjoy

TH44


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HeymSR20
.300 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 243
Loc: Scotland
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: TH44]
      #257956 - 17/12/14 04:48 AM

That Greener cape gun is classified as a firearm under English law as it has a rifled barrel. In the uk would be difficult to get a 450/400 on your licence as it is not suitable for deer (not legal because doesn't meet min muzzle velocity requirements of 2,450fps). You could own it but only be allowed to use it overseas.

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: HeymSR20]
      #257961 - 17/12/14 06:46 AM

Could a BPE rifle be exempt from those rules?
Is the Greener nitro proved?
I saw that the Fraser with two barrels failed to sell and is on offer at £6500.
Of course they still charge the buyers premium on post auction sales which is a bummer.
Sure would like to get that thing in hand for a better look.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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HeymSR20
.300 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 243
Loc: Scotland
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: Huvius]
      #257964 - 17/12/14 08:00 AM

You might be correct if it falls into the obsolete calibre list.

".450/ .400 Black Powder in case lengths of 2 3/8″, 2 7/8″, 2 19/32″ Thomas Turner No 2, 2 ¾” Westley Richards and 3 1/4. Also the .450.400 3″ Jeffrey (H)"

More details
http://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/obsolete-calibre-list


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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: HeymSR20]
      #257965 - 17/12/14 09:14 AM

I believe it was BP but am working in Norway this week, the catalogue is at home, I will try to remember to look it up

If BP it is obsolete calibre for the rifle, (VERY arguable for the shotgun) the list is only guidance, depends where you live/what your local firearms dept. of police try to interpret the actual law

Huvius - the Fraser looked good IIRC ( looked at so much) did not check the bores, I see it is no longer for sale? Did you get it?.

TH44


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: TH44]
      #257966 - 17/12/14 10:43 AM

No, I didn't get it but may try.
They are very slow to get back to you it seems. I requested a bore condition report on that rifle over a month before the auction and they finally replied the day before the auction. Of course too late to make a real effort at getting it.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: Huvius]
      #257968 - 17/12/14 12:51 PM

Lovely guns. Wish I could have been there. I really like that Dickson that came from Charles Gordon. I could make it a happy home here in Virginia.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: CptCurl]
      #257969 - 17/12/14 01:36 PM

A Fraser with two barrels is a rare bird indeed!

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: Huvius]
      #257985 - 17/12/14 08:34 PM

Quote:

No, I didn't get it but may try.
They are very slow to get back to you it seems. I requested a bore condition report on that rifle over a month before the auction and they finally replied the day before the auction. Of course too late to make a real effort at getting it.




I too have asked Holt´s in regards to some rifles they had up for auction about condition and chamberlength. Holt´s never answered. The last time I re-sended the e-mail just to see what would happened?...nothing...nada. It´s becoming more difficult to take them seriously.

Edited by rigbymauser (17/12/14 08:37 PM)


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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: rigbymauser]
      #258010 - 18/12/14 07:47 AM

If you want to get something from the unsold lots, telephone them
I have done this several times and got VERY honest answers immediately, although I gather one of the most experienced guys has recently left them

TH44


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Englishman
.275 member


Reged: 09/12/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Lot,France
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: TH44]
      #258318 - 28/12/14 04:33 AM

HeymSR20,

"That Greener cape gun is classified as a firearm under English law as it has a rifled barrel. In the UK would be difficult to get a 450/400 on your licence as it is not suitable for deer (not legal because doesn't meet min muzzle velocity requirements of 2,450fps). You could own it but only be allowed to use it overseas."

This is a strange statement, I have no problem at all owning/shooting .577NE, 475 No2 NE but then I use these at Bisley, has the law now changed?


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: Englishman]
      #258320 - 28/12/14 05:11 AM

Quote:

HeymSR20,

"That Greener cape gun is classified as a firearm under English law as it has a rifled barrel. In the UK would be difficult to get a 450/400 on your licence as it is not suitable for deer (not legal because doesn't meet min muzzle velocity requirements of 2,450fps). You could own it but only be allowed to use it overseas."

This is a strange statement, I have no problem at all owning/shooting .577NE, 475 No2 NE but then I use these at Bisley, has the law now changed?




I have wondered why an englishman has a difficulty in having a bigbore rifle on their "ticket"?.

yes I do comprehen that they British law does not allow a .577cal Express rifle for deer shooting in the park, but if I lived in England i would state to the police I use these big guns in Africa for example. Wouldn´t that be a legimate argument to get a licence for a +.500cal?.


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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: rigbymauser]
      #258325 - 28/12/14 10:17 AM

I am not sure about the details of what can be used to shoot what here in the UK, I know there are lists of "approved" calibres for different types of game
It could be held as an "antique" calibre as the .450/400 is on a list recommended (section 58) for such calibre guns and rifles to be held as a "curiosity or ornament" (ammunition must not be held)
The potential problem is the 16 bore shotgun, which is not on the list
The unit could be kept as a shotgun, with the usual shotgun restrictions (safely locked away etc.)
You could hold it as an antique as it is Black Powder, made before 1939, provided you could get a Firearms Dealer to "write it off" as an antique
This is 100 per cent legal, the local police would have to take you to court (do you want that hassle?) and must fail, providing you could show
a) it is antique
b) it is held as a curiosity or ornament
The local Chief Constable would make that decision. It depends where you live and his outlook
You would get major aggravation and problems in a larger city, less so in a predominantly country district

Sorry to ramble on, especially if you wanted to shoot it (certainly possible if you put it down as for "target" shooting)
This is unfortunately the law in the UK we have to live with it and keep a low profile all the media and others cannot wait to show guns and shooting in as negative light as possible

TH 44


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bwanabobftw
.375 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 662
Loc: Texas
Re: Goodies at Holt's [Re: TH44]
      #258389 - 30/12/14 06:41 AM

I really feel sorry for you guys in England . I just pray it never gets that bad in the USA.
Robert


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