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Sarg
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Martini rechamber
      #254930 - 09/10/14 07:45 PM

I have a take off barrel in .380 from a small frame Martini & a bunch of small action Martini's, some of them with the thick side wall frame, I see in old BSA catalogues that they chambered them in 32/40, which is a long sort of cartridge for this action I thought .

Any way I was thinking I could re chamber this .380 barrel (has .375 bore) to 38/55, looks like it might just fit around the corner, any one done this or heard of any one doing it ?

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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LesLeeSpeed
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Sarg]
      #254940 - 09/10/14 10:42 PM

Hi Sarg,
I will follow this post with interest, as I have a 380 rook in a small frame martini, I have been wondering what to do with.
LesLeeSpeed


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Ash
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #254952 - 10/10/14 12:15 AM

^

Wondering what to do with it? Sell it to me, of course! :P

--------------------
.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Ash]
      #254958 - 10/10/14 01:38 AM

Sarg - I think the standard 2" case would work better than the slightly longer .38/55 - as in blown out .30/30 or .375 Winchester case. Also - easier to get brass, ie: .30/30's.
It still seems a long case for such a tiny action.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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DoubleD
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Daryl_S]
      #254972 - 10/10/14 02:12 PM

I would be surprised if you can get a 38/55 to feed in the small action...won't turn the corner.

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DD, Ret.


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Sarg
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #255246 - 16/10/14 07:53 AM

Thank you for the thoughts guys, I might just give it a go, does not look a huge difference from 32/40, nothing to loss if it does not work I will rechamber to 375EX & screw it onto a 303 barrel stub & put it on a BSA MLE, that may not work either LoL !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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Daryl_S
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Sarg]
      #255251 - 16/10/14 10:39 AM

DD-Ret - didn't some of those little Martini's get re-barreled and chambered for the 5.54x50mm - or whatever that little .22 cak, long case was.
This made me think the .375 on a .30/30 case (.375 Winchester) would work as the ones I necked up are only 2" long, opposed to the almost 2.1" for the .38/55.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Marrakai
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Daryl_S]
      #255549 - 21/10/14 11:54 PM

Sarge:
Just for interest: I have a Martini Cadet re-chambered to .32-40 using the original .310 Cadet barrel. Case length is 2.13" and it fits just fine. The twist rate is not really high enough to stabilize the slow 165gr factory-load, but 150gr 8mm bullets swaged down a few thou and revved up a bit are straight shooters. This was a common conversion in the NT many years ago when a ban existed on high-velocity cartridges:- a .310 cartridge could still be chambered and fired to satisfy a curious copper!

...and a friend has a Cadet fitted with a Ruger Mini-Thirty barrel (.308 cal) chambered for the .30-30 and it safely shoots and ejects Winchester factory loads all day long.

Nothing to add regarding the .38 cal chamberings though, sorry....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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xausa
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Marrakai]
      #255571 - 22/10/14 06:42 AM

Quote:



...and a friend has a Cadet fitted with a Ruger Mini-Thirty barrel (.308 cal) chambered for the .30-30 and it safely shoots and ejects Winchester factory loads all day long.






Strange, my Mini-Thirty is chambered for the 7.62X39 cartridge, which uses a .311" bullet. Surprising that a .30-30, with its .308" bullet would shoot accurately in such a barrel.


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DoubleD
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: xausa]
      #255576 - 22/10/14 11:03 AM

30-30 and 32-40 are fine in the little Martini action. Geometry prevents the use of longer fatter cartridges in the action, There isn't enough clearance for the cartridge to enter the chamber and turn the corner.

In the small Martini the 357 Maximum is marginally able to chamber. Sometimes it will fit and in other actions it will not. Some grind the feed trough out to make it work, but that has been the cause of a number of block failures---after all the breech block is technically the locking lugs.

Sometimes you can get more room for the Maximum by lowering the feed position by lowering the web of the lever. That is the correct way to adjust feed position not welding the trigger and recutting it as some practice.

The other issue of course is the barrel tenon of the small martini is only 3/4". Too large a cartridge body will lead to a bulge in the chamber over the threads. I have had this happen to every single .225 Winchester I chambered for customers. They all were warned. They all said they were going load down. What's the point? If you are going to load down use the lesser cartridge.

5.56 x 50R good choice!

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (22/10/14 01:37 PM)


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Sarg
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #255588 - 22/10/14 08:59 PM

Thank you for the replies guys, yes Tony that's why I was thinking 38/55 as it looks close to 32/40 & BSA chambered small Martinis in that caliber, I see what DD is saying on the tenon, it sure is small, if I use the heavy BSA 12/15 I could fit a larger barrel tenon, but was only thinking 38/55 as I had this spare Francotte (or what I thought was) barrel, I only want a 357Max really & would get one of the worn hexagonal barrels rebored if I was in the US, the .380 barrel is a Ovate style !

But this is all mute now as I pulled the barrels out of most of the Martinis I have & the .380 is much smaller in the treads & a loose fit in all the small actions I have, the BSA 12/15 is the same as the BSA 310 Cadet the Francotte 297/230's barrel is a loose fit in the BSA actions & the .380 barrel is a loose fit in the Francotte action, so I'm out of luck on this idea, for now any way !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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greenshoots
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Sarg]
      #255591 - 22/10/14 10:18 PM

how about the below someone please buy it and take temptation out of my way

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/sh...ifle-in-7-x-57R



greenshoots


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DoubleD
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: greenshoots]
      #255606 - 23/10/14 03:05 AM

Let me say this one more time, you will not be able load a 38/55 into the chamber on a small action Cadet or 1215. The straight walled cartridge is too long and fat.

Any cartridge loaded into a martini must turn an arc to be loaded. A 38/55 rim will bind at the rear of the breech block and on the bullet or case wall at the top of the chamber.

Large long cartridges must be tapered to fit-smaller in front to make the arc.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #255607 - 23/10/14 03:10 AM

Yes - understood - the rim on the fairly straight sided case will bind, got that, DD.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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DoubleD
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Daryl_S]
      #255613 - 23/10/14 04:06 AM

I was pretty sure you got it, Daryl, but it didn't appear others did also.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (23/10/14 07:13 AM)


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Sarg
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #255618 - 23/10/14 07:44 AM

Oh I got you on that also DD, I would never bother to get a new barrel & try this longer fatter case in a small action, I meant the 12/15 for a higher pressure round, I know the 38/55 has very lower pressure, just you mention the 225Win also !

I had nothing to lose if this barrel fitted other than my time & I'm sure you are correct that the case would not fit around the bend & I thank you for the advise !

I also have this banged up .380 Rook drop type action that I was going to try next, but that I dont know if it is strong enough for the 38/55.

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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DoubleD
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Sarg]
      #255619 - 23/10/14 12:05 PM

38/55 would work good on a full size Martini Action. I had for a while a 375 2 1/2" NE. Very accurate and pleasant to shoot. Basically a 303 blown out straight. Case on the .303 is a bit short however. NE brass just fine at 2 1/2".

Down side was using it to hunt with Jacketed bullets. Most .375 bullets are made up for H&H velocities. Not any good for deer. I am inclined to build another and use the lighter bullets designed for the .375 Winchester or just plain old cast bullets.

Probably the best cartridge I have seen used on the small Martini action is the 7-30 Waters. It is a good deer cartridge to start with and fits the small action like it was made for it.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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karamoja
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #255629 - 23/10/14 06:13 PM

Hi Double D,

I have had a long love affair with martini's since owning a .22 as a small boy. I have a long held ambition to build a 7-30 waters for muntjac, roe and fallow deer(I am having build a GP jungle gun built at the moment, pics to follow).
Can you expand on the issues of action strength requirements please! I nearly bought an old .22 small frame with a safety, but I thought it probably would not be strong enough? (it is very difficult to buy and store actions or barrels etc for projects in the uk). I understand the issue of the case base size in relation to the knock form on the barrel but what about the action strength of older francotte actions etc?

Regards - Karamoja


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DoubleD
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: karamoja]
      #255636 - 23/10/14 11:03 PM

First, I am not going to go into any theoretical discussion on the relative strength of the Martini actions. I am not an engineer. I am not a aware of any analytical testing done when these designs were created. So I can not quote any mathematical answers to your question.

I don't put much stock in the CIP system of proof to give us an answer as it does not give us a true measure of strength of a given action. Rather it gives us a measure of an action to contain a given chambering. It may be no where near to maximum values for the action. Further the CIP proof charges are only 120% of peak working pressures. The American proof system test the design from 140% to 180% of peak working pressure depending on chambering. The test piece is retained as an archival reference in the American system.

I am aware of some later individual tests of these action to failure similar to Ackley's test of post WWII actions. But just like Ackley's test, the resulting wrecked actions don't really transmit to hard numbers on strength, since pressures involved are unknown. It does give a subjective idea of strength.

I stick with what I have been taught and what I have experienced, and what I have learned from others-credible others. People like Chick Donnelly, Bob Snapp, Frank De Haas and P.O. Ackley. I knew Donnelly well and lived a few miles from him. I talked with Ackley a number of times at Donnelly's shop. I corresponded with Bob Snapp a number of times. I corresponded with De Haas by letter and telephone a good deal during Gunsmithing school. I listened to these most wise men and learned.

Where no data exists, I follow the guidance of these men, I try to stay with in the range of historical chamberings and similiar cartridges.

The .225 Winchester is a chambering that is argued as safe/unsafe in the the Cadet. I mentioned bulged chambers in this cartridge. I am relying on my memory of work I did in the mid to late 80's. I remember two of these for sure and possibly a third. I discussed with the customers the issues expressed by others about this chambering being to large for the tenons.

After shooting these rifle for a bit they were all returned with brass sticking in chamber-determined to be from bulged chambers. I of course looked these actions over and checked the dimensions from the original build ticket and since all were unchanged, othe than the barrel, all were rechambered, .219 Donaldson Wasp, with never another problem.

Bob Snapp has done a number of these in 7-30 Waters and when I asked about that, he reported no issues or problems. In fact Bob told me he built one of these for himself and took it Caribou hunting. Bob did most of his work on the 4A action, the thinwall cadet. He told me he thought the thick side was big and ugly, and did not do much with them.

When you ask about the merits of the Francotte action, you do need to be clear about which you are talking about...Saying "Francotte Action" is like saying Winchester Lever action. While I assume you are referring to the Francotte style actions found in the various version of the BSA single shot, Francotte and various others did make this action also. I would have no qualms working with the Francotte made guns, and most of the Belgium made using the Francotte patent. There are others I would be reluctant to deal with if I were still doing this work.

The other small Martini's I would not do anything that was greater than the original chambering.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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karamoja
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #255644 - 24/10/14 04:30 AM

Many thanks, it is very much appreciated!
Regards Karamoja


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: DoubleD]
      #255651 - 24/10/14 07:56 AM

Quote:

Some grind the feed trough out to make it work, but that has been the cause of a number of block failures---after all the breech block is technically the locking lugs.




I have seen this done as well and have wondered that if the loaded cartridge is just too big to turn the corner if maybe shaving the rim of the brass on one side could be just enough to get chambered. Maybe cut on a radius from the rim edge on the opposite side. Of course it would be critical to load with the shaved side down but if the trough was a good fit to this contour, it would ride right down until chambered and the extractors would still have full rim width to work on.
Kind of silly, I know, but if there were that cartridge that you just had to have that almost fit in a cadet...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Marrakai
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Huvius]
      #255720 - 26/10/14 01:11 PM

Late post, apologies, responding to xausa's query:
Quote:

my Mini-Thirty is chambered for the 7.62X39 cartridge, which uses a .311" bullet. Surprising that a .30-30, with its .308" bullet would shoot accurately in such a barrel



The stainless mini-thirty barrel mentioned was indeed originally chambered for the 7.62x39 cartridge, but was .308 or .309 groove diameter, ie the bullet swages down a couple of thou in the throat. I was led to believe that this is the case with all Ruger mini-thirty barrels. Does anyone here know for sure? Have you ever slugged yours, xausa? Now I'm curious....

Also, the tough Ruger stainless barrel-steel might add strength to the otherwise thin tenon to overcome any tendency to bulge the chamber with .30-30 factory loads.

A bulged chamber would almost certainly mean a stretched action at the front, a pretty scary thought!

I can only reiterate the urge for caution in previous posts.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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lancaster
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Marrakai]
      #255837 - 28/10/14 02:06 AM

iirc read once the Mini 30 startet because ruger had .308 barrels on stock because of a project that did not happen. they use .310 barrels today for current production and the proof houses in europe will not accept any rifle with a .308 barrel for 7,62x39 anymore.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Marrakai
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: lancaster]
      #255866 - 28/10/14 11:07 AM

OK, makes sense, thanks for clearing that up, lancaster.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Sarg
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Re: Martini rechamber [Re: Marrakai]
      #264497 - 03/05/15 09:35 AM

Well I had the barrel off a couple of these Martini actions, a BSA 310 Cadet & BSA 22LR 12/15 & thought bugger it I (when I say I, I mean my mate with the lathe) will make a barrel stub out of wood to see for sure, then ended up making it out of a piece of nylon rod instead, chambered close to enough with a boring bar & turned a rim groove .

Well the 38/55 will slide in no trouble even with the .22 block in the 12/15, when the lever is pushed fully down & will slide straight out to, with the lever pushed fully down !

I don't know if this is allowable (to load with the lever pushed down, may not be ?) but it seems to work so far !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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