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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Ripp
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9.3x62--The Germans 338...
      #249594 - 27/06/14 05:54 AM

http://www.fieldandstream.com/http%3A/www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nut/93x62-the-germans-338

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EDELWEISS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Ripp]
      #251891 - 11/08/14 02:14 AM

The 9.3x62 seems like a great cartridge, although Ive never hunted with it, I did hunt with the 9.3x74r. It was a slayer for sure. I foolishly sold my 9.3x74r DR to buy a 470NE. Don't get me wrong the 470 Merkel, just drippps of cool' but I missed the 9.3, so much that I just ordered a Ruger No1 in 9.3x74.

Ive owned two different 338WM's and just could never feel the love. I think much of it had to do with 33s never being popular in the US. That's a shame too; because we all know its a good cartridge. Given a choice, Id still take the 9.3x62, its got pinache.

My buddy took his custom 9.3x62, to Afrika with me for Plains Game. I took a 375H&H, neither of us felt under or over gunned. Sure we could have done just as well with a 30-06; but it was AFRIKA after all.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #251901 - 11/08/14 04:02 AM

Quote:



Ive owned two different 338WM's and just could never feel the love. I think much of it had to do with 33s never being popular in the US. That's a shame too; because we all know its a good cartridge. Given a choice, Id still take the 9.3x62, its got pinache.



That's because it had that silly belt.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #251941 - 11/08/14 11:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Ive owned two different 338WM's and just could never feel the love. I think much of it had to do with 33s never being popular in the US. That's a shame too; because we all know its a good cartridge. Given a choice, Id still take the 9.3x62, its got pinache.



That's because it had that silly belt.



Actually the .338Win Mag is farily common here...used by many for elk...225gr slug coming out of one is fairly substantial on impact...

I have used the .338RUM a few times but personally feel its over the top for elk..just don't need that much horsepower..shot one once at about200 yards..complete penetration from stem to stern with 250gr A-Frames...


Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Ripp]
      #251952 - 12/08/14 12:49 AM

Bunch of guys here use .338's as well - some love them while some have switched to the .338 Federal.
The .338 Win.Mag. still has that silly belt.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bonanza
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #251960 - 12/08/14 03:24 AM

I like the belt, which is really a rim for proper head-spacing. Shoulder head-spacing is a pain when the shoulder won't get in the right place. With full length sizing, you can just about drop a round in with not resistance.

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tinker
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: bonanza]
      #251961 - 12/08/14 04:30 AM

I'm of the opinion that there's infinite room in this world for new rifle cartridges - and like Bonanza, I've never had an issue with belted cartridges.


...and I'd be happy to take any 9.3x62 rifle offered to me...

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: tinker]
      #251972 - 12/08/14 08:43 AM

Serves no purpose on ctgs. that do not need one, that's all. More brass equals more expense.

It does, however promote sloppy manufacturing practices which companies, both the reamer and rifle builders take advantage of in the US of A. In Europe, with the CIP laws, reamer and rifle mfgr's are held to a standard that is not met in the States. SAAMI is a "standardization recommendation", not law, as I understand it. For this reason, you can buy a large number of different wildcat chambered commercial rifles that do not have SAAMI listings. In Europe, I am quite certain, this would not happen.

I've never had a problem, per se' with the belt on necked cases - they merely correct a non-existent problem is all. Superfluous, they are. They do not strengthen the case to any useable degree and are not needed at all when there is a shoulder for headspacing.

I most heartedly admit, they do have a use in ctgs. such as the .450 Marlin, .458 2", .458 Win Mag, and other straight cases designed for bolt actioned rifles lacking the angled magazines for bolt actioned rimmed ctgs.

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #251981 - 12/08/14 12:06 PM

Daryl's right about sloppiness afore of the belt. Have now seen a few belted mags that the companies' seemed not to care a whit about once the thing stopped moving forward at the best. Specs all over the place.

I like the 9.3x62. My bear gun has a 16 1/4 inch bbl and still runs 285 Prvi bullets out a little faster than I pushed them in my now-all-gone 9.3x57's.

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lancaster
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #251990 - 12/08/14 06:38 PM

nice full stock mauser



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simonsaorsa
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: lancaster]
      #257689 - 10/12/14 07:55 AM

Just came across what sounds like a nice all purpose load for this round from John Barsness ( US gunwriter) - 250 grain Nosler Accubond bullet, 60.5 grains of Varget powder (not sure what the ADI original is!) for 2650 feet per second.

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rigbymauser
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #257690 - 10/12/14 08:02 AM

Quote:

Ive owned two different 338WM's and just could never feel the love.




Try the .333Jeffery. Thatīs when love for the ".33" returns. Iītried, it works and I am still in love.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #257696 - 10/12/14 10:49 AM

Quote:

Just came across what sounds like a nice all purpose load for this round from John Barsness ( US gunwriter) - 250 grain Nosler Accubond bullet, 60.5 grains of Varget powder (not sure what the ADI original is!) for 2650 feet per second.



That's smoking by today's factory load standards - up to IMP Whelen specks actually, which is appropriate due to having a greater case capacity than typical IMP Whelen brass by 4 or 5 gr.

John usually runsctgs. where they should be - he and Brian Pierce seem 'bent' that way as in 160gr. in 7x57 at over 2,700fps.

The 9,.3x62 cartridge can actually do a bit better than Varget loads if using BLC2. That powder seems perfectly blalanced for this case.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nei411
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #258298 - 27/12/14 12:33 PM

Holland & Holland invented belted cartridges for excellent reasons. Next time you are in an H&H Gun Room ask. Someone who actually knows will explain it to you. It has a lot to do with ammunition technology at the time they were invented as well as the places they were used. Period publications between the wars also explain the logic and brilliance behind their design. In our clean room world of the 21st century they would probably not be invented or rimmed cartridges either. Both designs still work as well as they did then and have stood the test of over a century. The same cannot be said for all the new cartridges on the scene, most of which will join the WSSMs in deserved obscurity.

There is nothing terrible about the 338 Winchester. It will get the job done, has a huge choice of bullets and rifles, is accurate and doesn't hurt to shoot. Pick what you like, you'll probably shoot it better.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: nei411]
      #258306 - 27/12/14 03:43 PM

H&H was looking for an easy way to use a chambering reamer way past it's useful life. If you wish to believe their hype, have at it.

I have never said there was anything wrong with the .338 - just that is does not need a belt, nor do any of the American or British Belted magnums that I am aware of.

Even the .400/.375 didn't need a belt - it had lots of shoulder for proper headspacing. It has more shoulder than the .375 Whelen, let alone the .40 Whelen - or the virtually straight rimmless 10.75x57mm. Those require precise loading to properly fit - that is all.

Don't believe the diatribe of companies trying to back up their cost-saving moves & poor manufacturing practices through invented problems.

Neither the .300H&H, & the .375 H&H EVER needed belts.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #258310 - 27/12/14 09:07 PM

I always felt that the 8x68S was the german .338, but hey, whatever floats yer boat!

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #258321 - 28/12/14 05:20 AM

I have a close friend who has always had at least one .338 Win.Mag. and one 8x68S since I met him in 1979.
He uses either as he desires at the time, but the 8x68S remains his favourite since his first custom 8x68S on a P14 w/Bastone Walnut, back in 79. It was gorgeous, and heavy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rule303
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #258333 - 28/12/14 07:09 PM

Quote:

I always felt that the 8x68S was the german .338, but hey, whatever floats yer boat!



My take on it as well.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #258408 - 30/12/14 11:19 PM

Quote:

H&H was looking for an easy way to use a chambering reamer way past it's useful life. If you wish to believe their hype, have at it.




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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #258413 - 31/12/14 05:47 AM

From my readings before WW2 the 9.3x62 was much more popular than the .375 H&H .Possibly because of the relatively (at the time)inexpensive Mauser bolt action rifles available but also because ammunition was less expensive and the 9.3x62 worked so well .It has been compared with the .375 for years ,most notably by Finn Aagaard who with his partner Joe Cheffings attained their PH licenses together many times shooting the same species at the same time . Finn observed that he saw no difference in the killing power of his Winchester 70 in .375 and Cheffings' 9.3x62 FN Mauser .He had many side by side comparisons to judge from.

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Norman4
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #259442 - 25/01/15 02:21 PM

I have used the 9.3x62mm for years. It is an underrated cartridge here in the US. I suspect we Americans feel the need for more flash and bang. The .338 is a Western cartridge. It was designed for western game at western distances. I have owned a well stocked .375 which I preferred shooting over a poorly stocked .338. That .338 pounded my cheekbones mercilessly. Muzzle flash was horrendous. But those are individual rifles. Either one was more than adequate for big game. I now own and shoot 3 different 9.3x62s. One of the first CZ550 Luxe to come into the country after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, and two Husqvarnas built on FN1950 actions. I can bench rest any of the three for a day, and have done so before, and walk away with all my parts still in place. The round appears to function smoothly and flawlessly in any bolt action. No doubt the lack of a belted case can't hurt in this department. It works in standard, non-magnum actions, and usually affords the shooter at least one more, and sometimes two more extra cartridges in the magazine. What I'm saying is it makes for a handy, light, fast rifle to carry in the field. I haven't shot a 9.3 that didn't exhibit excellent accuracy. There are factory loads capable of three shot one hole groups. Norma had a few. RWS had at least one. Then theres the killing thing. A .366 caliber bullet weighing 286 grains drives straight through most anything for thin skinned game. It knocks things down. I shot one of our smaller wolf hybrids with one once and flipped it upside down. Yes it was only a small animal in the fifty pound range, but the bullet has an incredible effect on game. I have made many one shot kills on deer and bear. It would work well on Elk in timber. I doubt there's a handier bear rifle that'll get the job done any better. I have no experience with the tougher African animals that many here have, but there is plenty of evidence as to the 9.3s lethality. I have no argument against the .338 or .375! Wonderful cartridges. It's just a shame more Americans aren't familiar with the 9.3x62. (and dare I suggest, the 8x57 either....) Cheers. Norman4

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paradox_
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: Norman4]
      #259474 - 26/01/15 11:26 AM

Daryl

Does the great 375 H&H have a silly belt as well ????????????????

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paradox_
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: paradox_]
      #259477 - 26/01/15 12:27 PM

Sorry Daryl

I did not read your response to the comments from nei411...which are by the way 100% correct.

For you to state that an inherint design feature in one of the worlds greatest ever big game cartridges is " silly" will Im afraid leave you open to a certain amount of flack!

Further to " suggest" that the design feature in question came about by: "H&H was looking for an easy way to use a chambering reamer way past it's useful life".... is something of a mystery to me.

Perhaps you could explain what you mean here, and from what source did you obtain this information??

Essential the benefits of headspacing off a belt where there is little shoulder are well documented by experts in cartridge design, with greater levels of expertise than you and I, so no need to rehash it all here.

Not withstanding that in later years many belted cartridges appeared for no other reason than they looked cool ,and the fact that some reference to the word magnum made for good marketing.

As has been pointed out many great cartridges dont have a belt, but many do. this doesnt make them any less of a good cartridge.

I do know though that I personally prefer to be loading both the 375 and the 300 ( in particular), with a belt than without.

In summary I think you very broad and general description of any cartridge that has a belt as been " silly" is something of a generalisation ...at the very least.

Best

Eric

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: paradox_]
      #259482 - 26/01/15 04:34 PM

Yes - belts are said to correct a headspacing problem with small case shoulders - everyone knows what is claimed.

There are guys here who shoot .400 Whelens without any headspacing trouble and they have just about as much shoulder as the .400/.375 H&H. Is care in loading this tyye of round required - absolutely, one must know what he is doing. As far as gun writers saying similar things, there have been some. Most jumped on the .35 Whelen headspace trouble, then Remington commercialized the round and those writers who followed 'the old wives tales in writing this, because they were paid-by-word, were left looking mighty silly, when new handloaders who bought .35 Whelens had no difficulty loading for it. Friend of mine was one. I helped him. I could name a few of those writers, but some might have passed on now and that would somewhat distasteful.

I have a counter Challenge - name one modern belted factory ctg.(Post 1906) that REQUIRES the belt for proper headspace.

Neither the .300H&H's 8 1/2 degree nor the .375's 15 degree shoulder angles NEED the belt that H&H put on those cases, due to the gross difference between the shoulder diameter and the neck diameter.

I dare anyone to create excessive headspace by firing a .300 or .375 - one with belt turned off, with the case then properly headspaced on the shoulder. (have to neck it up then down for crush fit, then fireformed. Only neck size part of the neck, not touching the shoulder and fire it with a factory equivalent loads - 3 or 4 times or more and see if it produces excessive headspace. Will NOT! The belt was not needed.

Factory equivelent loads of 1912 will suffice. 2,600fps for .375 and/or, .300 H&H with 180gr. at 2,750fps - Barnes COTW, cordite loading. Belts turned off will present no problem at the pressure levels that will present - as noted, headspace must be produced on the shoulder, properly. If you do not understand this, do not attempt it.
According to Lee- 60.7gr. IMR4350 will do the trick in the .300 and in the .375 H&H, about 76.0gr. AA2700 should do it.

Belts were something new in the early 1900's, needed, perhaps for the ill-designed 1905 .400/.375H&H which was almost no shoulder and the possibility of pushing back the shoulder with the bolt, a distinct possibility. The belt was most certainly not needed for the two H&H rounds listed above, nor for any other modern belted magnums that I am familiar with.

Challenge to you - name some. Name one! Name a current belted magnum that NEEDS the belt - a ctg. that does not have enough shoulder for proper headspacing.


Yeah- that was overly long. Reduced to about 1/3rd.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: 9.3x62--The Germans 338... [Re: DarylS]
      #259490 - 26/01/15 09:02 PM

I really do not like belts on my cases, but I think my work gun in 458Win may need it ?

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