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fsrmg1
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7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings
      #248846 - 12/06/14 11:25 AM

I've been finding references to the following rounds being chambered in the M-S rifle:

7x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer
7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer

Outside of them just having a mention, I've not been able to locate any specific information on them.

Does anyone have any information on them? When and in what rifles were they used in? What are the cartridge dimensions? Were these experimental calibres that never caught on?

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Cheers,

Rich


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Igorrock
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fsrmg1]
      #248855 - 12/06/14 02:04 PM

Could you at first tell where you have seen such calibers ? The only 7x54 -caliber which I know is Finnish "factory wildcat" which parent case is 6,5x55.
But could bee possible too that somebody has made own wildcat caliber and just necked up 6,5x54 MS. And maybe the other one with 7,63 (=.30)-caliber bullets...?

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fsrmg1
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: Igorrock]
      #248860 - 12/06/14 03:14 PM

I came up with three 7x54mm variations, a Finnish, French and the M-S.

Just copy and paste the calibres as I wrote them above into Google and do a search, that would be the best way to see for yourself.

You might be right about the 7x54mm just being a wildcat to freshen up the bores of worn out 6.5x54mm rifles, but the Greek one might have a different purpose and history, unless it too is to just clean it up to a .30 cal. The Greek one is listed in Wikipedia, but no technical data or history on it.

I was hoping somebody out there would have reference material on either one, or at least something in a wildcat/cartridge conversion manual with some history.

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Rich


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fuhrmann
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fsrmg1]
      #248871 - 12/06/14 06:08 PM

Rich,

there was a 7x54 introduced by RWS in the 1920s but this was very shortlived.

I happen to have a cartridge, asked about it in a cartridge collectors forum and got good information:
http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15668

fuhrmann


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fsrmg1
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Re: 7x54mm and 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fuhrmann]
      #248893 - 13/06/14 12:51 AM

Hallo Fuhrmann,

Thank you very much for that information, I'm not going crazy. I found the link very informative on the various 7x54mm cartridges. Would you have the dimensions for the 7x54mm RWS?

Now, I just need to find more information on the 7.63x54mm Greek M-S round.

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Rich


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Igorrock
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Re: 7x54mm and 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fsrmg1]
      #248895 - 13/06/14 01:18 AM

Quote:

I just need to find more information on the 7.63x54mm Greek M-S round.



As we know, mannlicher made 7,63 caliber pistol cartridges so maybe 7,63x54 is 6,5x54 MS to necked up for those pistol bullets.

Finnish 7x54 was designed for light bullets, mainly 79 gr FMJ.

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fsrmg1
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Re: 7x54mm and 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: Igorrock]
      #248906 - 13/06/14 10:15 AM

I kind of suspect that Greece at the time was getting on the .30 calibre band wagon with a large stock of 6.5mm rifles on hand and was considering a cheap option of using the old rifles as a platform to do so. Sort of like Italy's limited attempt to rebore the 6.5mm Carcano to 7.35mm.

I suppose Greece gave that idea up either due to the wars and civil unrest effecting manufacturing and distribution, or by the US and NATO supplying them with a bunch of state of the art weapons after WWII to fight the communist factions during the start of the Cold War.

It will be interesting to find out more though.

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Rich


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Igorrock
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Re: 7x54mm and 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fsrmg1]
      #248924 - 13/06/14 03:24 PM

I think this text helps to understand better greek Mannlicher´s history:

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann03.htm

"Related Greek Military History
From pages 555 & 556 of Christos Z. Sazanidis: The Arms of Hellenes, a Historical Survey of the Small Arms of the Hellenic Arms Forces, the Security Forces, and Guerilla Bands, (1821-1992)", Thessaloniki, Greece, 1995.
4. The Repeating Rifle Era (1905-1941) For Greece, the first decades of the 20th century was full of war events. The armed phase of the Macedonian Struggle (1904-1908), the victorious Balkan Wars (1912-1913), WW I (1914-1918), and the campaigns to Russia 1919) and Asia Minor (1919-1922) had all a decisive effect upon the organization and the armament of the Greek Armed Forces.
4a. Up to WW I (1905-1914) The armed phase of the Macadonian Struggle last 4 years (1094-1908) and Greece took active part in it by sending men and arms to this region. The small arms used by the Greek armed guerillas (andartae) who participated in the conflict were Gras and Martini single shot rifles and carbines.
After 1905, there was also a limited number of 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Schönauer repeating carbines, which were slightly different from those adopted by the Army. An assortment of rifles and carbines, coming from war booties (9.5mm and 7.65mm Turkish Mausers and 8x56mm Bulgarian Mannlichers) and commercial sales, was also used.
In the field of handguns, most were Chamelot-Delvigne and Montenegrin Gasser revolvers, but any other type of pistols and revolvers (Nagant, Colt, Smith & Wesson, Mannlicher etc) could also be seen in the hands of Greek guerillas. In Athens, after long debates and repeated trials, the Army adopted the 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schönauer repeating rifle and carbine on October 28, 1904. The first contract between Greece and the Steyr company (Oesterreichische Waffenfabrik Gesellschaft, Steyr) was signed on October 29-November 11, 1905 for 60,000 rifles and the first weapons were issued to troops in July, 1907. Up to the autumn of 1912, when the first Balkan War began, 130,000 Mannlicher-Schönauer rifles and carbines had been delivered to Greece, along with 100 million 6.5 mm cartridges bought from the Austrian Hirtenberger and Georg Roth companies, and the Greek Powder and Cartridge Company.
This rifle was used in both Balkan Wars, WW I, the campaigns to Russia and Asia Minor and the Greco-Italian and Greco-German Wars of 1940-41. It was also used by the resistance organizations during Axis occupation of Greece.
B. Up to the Treaty of Lausanne (1914-1923) When WW I broke out, Greece preferred to remain neutral for a certain period. This neutrality caused her to be cut off from any possible channel of armament procurement, including small arms and ammunition. Till then, Greece had in her arsenal 190,069 6.5mm M1903 and M1903/14 Mannlicher Schönauer rifles & carbines, 77,000 11mm M.1874 Gras rifles & carbines, and 44,000 Turkish Mausers and Bulgarian Mannlicher rifles and carbines.
C. Up to the Eve of the Greco-Italian War (1923 to October 27, 1940). After the Asia Minor debacle, the salvaged material, inter alia, included: 1. 96,000 6.5 mm M1903 and m1903/14 Mannlicher-Schönauer rifles 2. 8,650 M1903 Mannlicher-Schönauer carbines 3. 16,000 8 mm M1888/90 and m1895 Bulgarian Mannlicher rifles 4. 700 8 mm M1890 and m1895 Bulgarian Mannlicher carbines. 5. 26,000 7.65 mm M1890, M1893, and M1903 Turkish Mauser rifles 6. 10,500 7.65 mm M1890 and M1905 Turkish Mauser carbines. 7. 9,150 M1898 Mauser rifles8. etc.
All these weapons were old, worn out an short of spare parts, while most of them needed repair. In order (for) the Army to be ready for combat, new small arms had to be bought. After long debates and repeated trials, in 1925, Greece ordered tom the Italian Breda Factory 100,000 6.5 mm M1904/14/27 Mannlicher-Schönauer rifles, which were delivered in 1927. In 1930, Greece also purchased from Steyr Werke AG (SWAG), 25,000 6.5 mm M1904/14/30 Mannlicher Schoenauer carbines, making a total of 224,700 Mannlicher-Schönauer weapons (old and new)."


I personal think that greek Mannlicher special calibers have quite similar history alike finnish wildcats to x53R Mosin case.

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fsrmg1
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Re: 7x54mm and 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: Igorrock]
      #248928 - 13/06/14 06:42 PM

Thanks Igorrock,

Now I'm totally confused. I was hoping maybe for some specs and a bit of history on the rifles and rounds.

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Cheers,

Rich


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fuhrmann
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Re: 7x54mm and 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fsrmg1]
      #249006 - 15/06/14 03:05 AM

Here are the dimensions of the 7x54 RWS cartridge, all in mm:

Rim dia. 11.98
Base dia. 11.94
Shoulder dia. 11.0
Neck dia. 8.2
Bullet dia. 7.2
Case length 53.9
Body length 40.5
Neck length 10
Cartridge length 69.4

Regards, fuhrmann


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Igorrock
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Re: 7x54mm and 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fuhrmann]
      #249010 - 15/06/14 04:28 AM

Interesting, seems that 7x54 case dimension are quite near of 6,5x54 Mauser. Even so near that last mentioned could be the parent case:

http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-i/tabical-en-page21.pdf

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7mmSAKO
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fsrmg1]
      #261068 - 24/02/15 05:04 AM

Friend of my uncle had sporterized Mauser 98 whitch was made for his father before WW2 for target shooting/small game hunting. He had one original cartidge left (rifle was later rebarreled for 7,62x53R). It looked lot like 7x54 Finnish, but bullet diameter was closer to .30 cal (it was hard to measure it because the bullet was so short). Bullet was small nickel plated full metal jacket. If I remember correctly, case was 6,5x55 Swedish made by DWM.
Uncles friends father had 7,65 Luger/Parabellum 08 pistol. Was this some kind of wildcat made to shoot 7,65 pistol bullets, or was it some kind of experimental caliber, or did I simply made mistakes when measuring bullet... Sadly uncles friend died some time ago, so I can't chek the measures.
Probably it has nothing to do with 7,63x54 Greek M-S.


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DonZ
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: 7mmSAKO]
      #261096 - 24/02/15 01:17 PM

7,65 Luger was the "smaller" Luger cartridge, not a wildcat. For more info see www.lugerforum.com.

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7mmSAKO
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: DonZ]
      #261100 - 24/02/15 04:32 PM

Yes I know the 7,65 Luger. Sorry, my english isn't good.
I mean was this 7,62 or 7,65 or 7,63x54 rifle cartridge his own idea to make wildcat that could use same bullets that his 7,65 Luger pistol was using? Or was it some kind of unknown factory design?
Bird hunting has always been popular here in Finland. I can imagine that availability of suitable calibers and full metal jacket bullets was limited before WW2.


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lancaster
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: 7mmSAKO]
      #262574 - 21/03/15 03:35 AM

just by chance I got an old DWJ gun magazine in my hands and there was an article about the Schmidt&Habermann M 21 rifle what was a modified Mauser Kurz action.
its the first time I have seen a rifle was offered for the 7x54 RWS cartridge









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fuhrmann
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: lancaster]
      #262579 - 21/03/15 06:11 AM

Very interesting!
Cocking / uncocking by hand, which seems to be very popular nowadays with german hunters.
Once again, there is nothing new under the sun!
fuhrmann


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xausa
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fuhrmann]
      #262587 - 21/03/15 08:12 AM

Uncocking such an action with a cartridge in the chamber would be asking for trouble. The firing pin would be resting on the primer and it would not take much force on the cocking piece to set the primer off. It would be equally ill advised in the case of the US Krag and 1903 Springfield rifles, both of which were equipped with grasping knobs on the cocking piece.

I think the knob is there for the purpose of allowing the action to be cocked in the event of a misfire, without having to open the bolt, obviating the danger of a hang fire going off with the action unlocked.


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lancaster
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: xausa]
      #262600 - 21/03/15 02:47 PM

I understand the firing pin can only reach the primer when fired but uncock the action by hand he end allways 5mm before in a special catch.
do not believe they had made an action where you set the firing pin against the primer, not such a firm and not from Suhl.

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93x64mm
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: lancaster]
      #262605 - 21/03/15 04:28 PM

fuhrmann, that 9.3x38mm round sounds unusual, do you have all the measurements for that cartridge?
If so what would be a possible cartridge to make it from?
There is absolutely nothing on the web about it at all!
Would make a good finishing round for the bigger 9.3x62, x64 or x66mm in an adaptor cartridge!
Cheers
93x64mm


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lancaster
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: 93x64mm]
      #262610 - 21/03/15 07:06 PM

there is a 9x38 and iirc, also a 9,3x38 based on the 7,62x39 Kalaschnikov

a friend told me once about a AK 47 in 9x38 someone shooting IPSC in Finnland

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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fuhrmann
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: 93x64mm]
      #262611 - 21/03/15 07:10 PM

Xausa,
right, uncocking was not mentioned.
But the old catalog text clearly refers to the special safety catch (mentioned by lancaster above) and that the rifle can be carried loaded and uncocked, to be cocked easily and without noise by pulling back the knob at the end of the bolt.

This reminded me of the modern "safety locks" developed by Seehuber and Niesser, available for Mauser 98, Remington 700 and maybe other actions. But I have never handled one of these, so can't compare in detail.
fuhrmann


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fuhrmann
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: 93x64mm]
      #262616 - 21/03/15 07:36 PM

Quote:

fuhrmann, that 9.3x38mm round sounds unusual, do you have all the measurements for that cartridge?
If so what would be a possible cartridge to make it from?
There is absolutely nothing on the web about it at all!
Would make a good finishing round for the bigger 9.3x62, x64 or x66mm in an adaptor cartridge!
Cheers
93x64mm




I discussed this with German cartridge collectors at an ECRA meeting last autumn. They also did not know much. One remembered some mention of such a cartridge in pre-war RWS files, but nobody had seen an actual example. Fotos and measurements are now in the ECRA database.
Base diameter is ca. 11.4 mm if I remember correctly, and this does not fit to the usual 8x57 IS dimensions. A close match for base dimensions would be the 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schönauer.

We saw no real hunting use for this cartridge. One idea was that this was an experiment for a semi-automatic, a carbine maybe, and the 9,3 mm Tesco hunting bullet was used because it was lighter than the other 9,3 hunting bullets available.
fuhrmann


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lancaster
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: fuhrmann]
      #262617 - 21/03/15 07:51 PM

Quote:


Base diameter is ca. 11.4 mm if I remember correctly, and this does not fit to the usual 8x57 IS dimensions. A close match for base dimensions would be the 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schönauer.

We saw no real hunting use for this cartridge. One idea was that this was an experiment for a semi-automatic, a carbine maybe, and the 9,3 mm Tesco hunting bullet was used because it was lighter than the other 9,3 hunting bullets available.
fuhrmann




or the 7,62x39
so the cartridge will fit any action working with the 7,62x39 like AK 47, Ruger Mini 30 or the AR 15

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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kuduae
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: lancaster]
      #262626 - 21/03/15 10:21 PM

Xausa, both lancaster and Fuhrmann are right. On the Schmidt & Habermann Mod.21 there is a latch built into the cocking piece knob used as a half-cock safety. here are the parts of such a latch:

This is such an action on full cock:

Here it is with the firing pin all the way forward:

To put the action on "safe" you grab the knob with your left hand, pressing the rear end of the latch in. Pull the trigger and let the firing pin slide forward until the swung out front of the latch rests against the bolt sleeve. The rifle is now safe, with the firing pin off the primer:

To put the rifle on "fire" again, either pull the cocking piece knob back to full cock again, or lift and lower the bolt handle.


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lancaster
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Re: 7x54mm & 7.63x54mm M-S Chamberings [Re: kuduae]
      #262627 - 21/03/15 10:31 PM

thanks kuduae, excellent pics
did you actually ever see a rifle in 7x54?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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