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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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ejsxs
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Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun".
      #248576 - 07/06/14 01:47 AM

Recently I bought an Army & Navy's "The Jungle Gun", built in 1905 for a W. Gothe esq., it is in good condition, aside from some pits inside its right barrel. It is a well kept boxlock, S. No. 43152, with intercepting sears, sports a Webley Screw-grip, doble triggers and ejectors. Barrels, of the brazed lump type, had been reblacked. The gun comes in its original canvas case. Dimensions: 28" barrels, 50/100 yard leaf rear sights, 12 gauge, 2.75" chambers, 3.055 Kg (6,67 lb) and 14.75" LOP. Most probably was built by Webbley & Scott, though nitro proofed by the London Proof House for 1 1/8 oz of shot and ball.

Shot trials at plate had given Improve Cylinder patterns, very much in agreement with Greame Wrigth's findings ("Shooting the British Double Rifle", 2nd Ed., pp. 254-257).

I would be grateful for any advice on what type of bullet/cartridge shall I try, since there are no loading instructions label on the case (markings show that there was one).

There is any experience with Jungle Guns in Australia?


EJSXS

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248579 - 07/06/14 01:56 AM

Beautiful and useful gun.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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DarylS
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248580 - 07/06/14 01:57 AM

NICE -

If nice an tight.
1 1/8 ounce ball weighs 492gr. (437.5 gr. X 1.125)

That is a 14 bore ball, ie: about .690" to .692" for a true 14 bore ball - which is actually 500gr. in pure lead.

A .682" ball in pure lead weighs 482gr.

A slightly harder alloy, used for dangerous game would reduce weight slightly, to the .490gr. range, ie: 1 1/8 ounce.

You should slug - ie: measure the muzzle of the rifled tube, land to land, and groove to groove & use a ball that is appropriate in size, within reason. A .730" ball (583gr.)- true 12 bore might be too heavy and not regulate.

There are several 12 bore loads listed in Greener's book for 2 3/4" shells, 115gr., 150gr. and 191gr. IIRC, without checking.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: DarylS]
      #248582 - 07/06/14 02:02 AM

There are several ways to make undersized balls accurate. Undersized balls, (not touching the bore) can be held centered inside the bore in a cup-shaped wad or merely be cloth patched as are used in muzzleloading rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: DarylS]
      #248587 - 07/06/14 04:51 AM

Were these guns regulated in any way ?

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #248592 - 07/06/14 06:31 AM

D. Vortrekker,

they certainly were, and according to written evidence Army & Navy C.L.S. provided with adequate ammunition and with instructions for reloading in far away places. Unfortunatedly these instructions can not be applied today because the original components are not any more around. This comes to the crux of my request, regarding on what current owners of "The Jungle Guns" do in regard to ball usage.

EJSXS

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500Boswell
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248595 - 07/06/14 06:44 AM

Im sure Jack Lott had a Jungle Gun ,maybe some of his writings or books might have some info

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: 500Boswell]
      #248599 - 07/06/14 07:31 AM

Looks great!

I have not owned this specific model.
There's a process though, and I believe you can get there.

You have an original load recipe from A/N?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: tinker]
      #248600 - 07/06/14 07:33 AM

Tinker,

nop, I don't have such a recipe.

EJSXS

Edited by ejsxs (07/06/14 07:34 AM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248613 - 07/06/14 01:33 PM

Look through this paradox/bore rifle forum.
There have been Lancaster and C&H and Tolley and other "invisible rifling" ball/shot guns which ended up running very well with modern components.

Slug and cast it, list the numbers, and list the weight.
I'm sure we can get you running to regulation.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: tinker]
      #248633 - 08/06/14 02:16 AM

Question:

Just to start with something. I remember coming across one or two producers of custom made slugs for these type of guns in the US, sometime ago. Does anyone can give me directions in this respect?

EJSXS

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gatsby
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248635 - 08/06/14 02:28 AM

I saw and responded to your post on another forum.
Tom Armbrust at Ballistic Research might be of some help. I don't have his contact numbers at hand though. Any modern easily obtainable ammo isn't going to be of any help, it just isn't designed for use in the older guns. Are you unable to reload?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: gatsby]
      #248653 - 08/06/14 09:24 AM

Handloading, and possibly casting of your bullets - this is how it's done.
Fortunately with bore rifles the process is simple and forgiving.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: tinker]
      #248737 - 10/06/14 01:49 AM

Gatstby & Tinker,

Reloading here is rather difficult, ie. permission, tools and components. Though it is the safest way to go if you have the means and time.

Thanks,

EJSXS

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gungadoug
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248792 - 11/06/14 07:43 AM

Can you supply bore diameter, and tell if there is any form of rifling? Look close- if it's oval, or one of the variants it can be almost impossible to see--
Doug

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: gungadoug]
      #248798 - 11/06/14 10:59 AM

Doug,

bore diameter is .730", rifling are six grooves that are very difficult to see.

Regards,

EJSXS

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248808 - 11/06/14 03:11 PM

To be exact - EJSXS bore diameter is the small number.
Groove diameter is the big number.

If you use calipers to take the width of the barrel inside and in the grooves, you are reading the groove diameter.

Bore diameter is the distance across the rifling lands.


That's .730" groove diameter, isn't it?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: tinker]
      #248816 - 11/06/14 09:17 PM

Tinker,

I'll proceed as you mention, being soon back with the facts.

Regards,

EJSXS

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248847 - 12/06/14 11:47 AM

Tinker, I tried with two means:

1. Mitutoyo Micrometer: it did measured in the vicinity of .700", both bores (maybe I am not competent enough) or because grooves and lands are not opossite. The Galazan standard 12 bore pattern gives the same stated dimension with this micrometer: .729", thus the micrometer works Ok in a round smooth surface.

2. Galazan Barrel and Choke gauge (three rounded legs 0.2" wide):

Grooves, in this position, the deepest I could go mikes .730" on both barrels (the instrument moves vertically with little friction).
Lands, in this position I tried to rotate the instrument, with some difficulty, it mikes .720", both barrels.

Thus, with some confidence I would stick with the Galazan gauge. So grooves are .730 deep and lands measure 720".

You were right Tinker, I was giving groove dimensions, at least in accordance to the Galazan gauge.

Now if this measurement is right, what would be an appropiate slug diameter?

Regards,

EJSXS

Edited by ejsxs (12/06/14 11:57 AM)

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gatsby
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #248856 - 12/06/14 02:14 PM

I don't think you are getting the right measurements at .720. That seems a bit undersized for any 12 bore.

Unless the .720 is at the choke?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (12/06/14 11:24 PM)

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gungadoug
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: gatsby]
      #248886 - 13/06/14 12:14 AM

This looks to be a twin to my Lancaster Colindian gun. I wonder if the rifling is straight up to about 6" from the muzzle, or if the twist is uniform full length? My groove dia is also .730- I am loading 22.5 gr. Unique, hard nitro card, (2) 1/2" waxed fiber wads, and a newspaper disc under a Fosbery style .730", 750 gr bullet lubed with LLA, this in a 2 1/2" paper hull, garotte crimped. Accuracy is superb! Now- how to get you loading this?? I would send you some loaded, but obviously can't do that! I expect I could send some bullets though, if that would be of any help.
Doug

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DarylS
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: gungadoug]
      #248888 - 13/06/14 12:22 AM

Might work, Doug. The method of getting them to him might not be easy - or might not be allowed for you to do that, by US Homeland Security - they seem to have NEW rules, every week.
Our friend in Chile might need an FFL - or you might as well, to send out firearm related 'parts'.
I'd check that out first.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: DarylS]
      #248910 - 13/06/14 12:09 PM

Gatsby,

.720 is all along the barrel, there seems to be no choke (pause).........definitively no choke.

Doug,

rifling is straight up to a few inch from the muzzle, maybe 5 or 6. Thanks for offering some help, sending parts that may be controlled in the US is not easy. One option would be to get a good number of the same bullets from a registered producer willing to export them and able to go through the red tape. From my end I had to do similar paperwork. A local importer of Hornady bullets has told me countless delays and problems. I am exploring the H&H option. Who is making their slugs/cartridges in the UK?

Daryl,

thanks beforehand,

EJSXS

Edited by ejsxs (13/06/14 12:21 PM)

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gungadoug
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: ejsxs]
      #249054 - 15/06/14 10:03 PM

EJSXS, On looking closely, I would bet money your A&N was made by Lancaster! University of Glasgow at enquire@archives.gla.ac.uk may be able to give you some history on yours, though the archives are incomplete. I found them most helpful- give them the serial #, and a description, and they will do 1/2 hr research at no charge. At any rate, the engraving style, rifling description, even bore and groove diameters are virtually identical to my Lancaster.
Doug

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ejsxs
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Re: Advice/Experience on Army & Navy "Jungle Gun". [Re: gungadoug]
      #249108 - 16/06/14 02:18 PM

Doug,

Your hypothesis is interesting, but I don't remember hearing that Lancaster made guns for Army & Navy with a Webley Scott patent. It may have been the other way around, that is Webley Scott building the same gun for both A& N and Lancaster, in any event this is mostly academic, if they look alike they were made in the same place in all probability. Yes, I had been in the Glagow Univ site, from where I got the production year and first owner's name. One next step would be to make a paid enquire where I would get the full order/production sheet, which I don't think will provide much additional info. I must confess I have been a little slow on this path. On the other hand, I can see that you have done a thorough work with your gun and I am sure I have a lot to learn from your experience.

Regards,

EJSXS

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