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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3547
Loc: Colorado

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Ruger_450]
#245664 - 14/04/14 07:31 AM

Quote:

I have shot 45 caliber Barnes Copper bullet sabots from my .452 percussion ML and they will shoot well enough for shots to 200 yards. It is really set up for big heavy lead bullets, but the Barnes would work for hunting.

Please tell us about your rifle.
I would like to get a Pedersoli Gibbs and modify it for a rod like your rifle.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26823
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: casper50]
#245665 - 14/04/14 07:31 AM

Casper - I believe the suggestion is that Lee will cut you a mould in the REAL design, which would result in a typical paradox-weight - for about $100.00 to $125.00 I think is their range for a simple, custom mould.

Foster (American-type) hollow-based 12 bore slugs will run from .690" to .725" - nominally, depending on their maker.

Brenneke's are usually a bit larger in diameter and have been sold by the box of 25 for loading, in the past - what their size is I do not know.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NONAGONAGIN
.224 member

Reged: 03/04/14
Posts: 11
Loc: USA

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
#245679 - 14/04/14 02:06 PM

Thanks Ruger 450.

You can talk to me directly, guys, I'm in the same room. Ask me directly what I mean.

I don't want to get into a protracted whizzing contest over minutia or definitions...my understanding of a "Paradox" gun is a gun with a smooth bore and a section of rifling so you could shoot both bullets and shot. The ammo wasn't "special", the rifle was. It used shot shells for one type of game and cartridge's with a 740 grain round nose bullet for another.

I have rifled guns in 12 and 20 gauge...shotguns, SS, O/U, pump and auto in 12 and 20 gauge and rifled choke tubes to fit several, and I shoot slugs of some type and weight, factory and home grown, in all of them at various times.

So tell me...by definition...when I install a rifled choke tube on any of those smooth bores, they become a "Paradox Gun" with a capital "P" and when I take off the rifled tube and install a smooth tube and shoot slugs in it along with shot shells it becomes just another ordinary "paradox" gun with a small "p"...and if I were to decide to chuck the rifled gauge gun barrels in my lathe and remove all but 3" of rifling, the gun would become a "True" "Paradox gun". N'est-ce pas?

Or...does it have to be a H&H or one of the other makers of that era to qualify?

There are several mold makers that do large bore bullets. Accurate Arms will make you a single cavity to your specs for $100, so will NEI, Hoch, Brooks, JT, LBT, etc., but they cost quite a bit more.

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
#245682 - 14/04/14 03:13 PM

Quote:

Thanks Ruger 450.

You can talk to me directly, guys, I'm in the same room. Ask me directly what I mean.

I don't want to get into a protracted whizzing contest over minutia or definitions...my understanding of a "Paradox" gun is a gun with a smooth bore and a section of rifling so you could shoot both bullets and shot. The ammo wasn't "special", the rifle was. It used shot shells for one type of game and cartridge's with a 740 grain round nose bullet for another.

So tell me...by definition...when I install a rifled choke tube on any of those smooth bores, they become a "Paradox Gun" with a capital "P" and when I take off the rifled tube and install a smooth tube and shoot slugs in it along with shot shells it becomes just another ordinary "paradox" gun with a small "p"...and if I were to decide to chuck the rifled gauge gun barrels in my lathe and remove all but 3" of rifling, the gun would become a "True" "Paradox gun". N'est-ce pas?

Yes no and kinda. Paradoxes shoot to the sites with ball ammo and pattern ic as a shotgun. The shot ammo used in the period guns wasn't special but the ball ammo was. Your gun with removable chokes could be considered a "paradox" that is the gun and both sets of chokes. I doubt if your rifled gun would pattern well with part of the rifling removed and may not shoot well either. The "magic" of a paradox was/is in the barrels and their ability to function as both a rifle and shotgun. Modern hard cast slugs if used in an older gun could bulge the barrel when passing through the choke section so it is somewhat important to clarify exactly what type of gun is being referenced when talking about loading for these "paradox" guns.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

Edited by gatsby (14/04/14 03:15 PM)

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NONAGONAGIN
.224 member

Reged: 03/04/14
Posts: 11
Loc: USA

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: gatsby]
#245685 - 14/04/14 05:27 PM

Thanks, Gatsby...I'm understanding that when talking about a "Paradox gun" it is a period gun rather than a modern gun even though H&H will make you a modern version...for a LOT of money.

NO rifled gun will pattern shot very well...the spin will open up the pattern more than a standard choke will and a 4 petal wad will worsen the pattern...argumentatively speaking. The rifled chokes tubes I have equated to ~IMP CYL and 1/35 twist...OK for game birds up close and a pie plate slug group at 75-80 yds depending on slug length...I gave up wasting shot and went back to mod/full chokes, and a fully rifled barrel.

Turning and honing out the rifling and leaving 3-6" of rifling would be a giant waste of time but if done right with a bit of run in for the shot/slug shouldn't be too hard and should shoot just as well as a "real" Paradox gun. Getting the smooth bore section the correct ID is no problem...just deep hole drilling so to speak. I couldn't do it with my loosey-goosey lathe...bed isn't long enough besides.

Interesting problem to solved though.

You shouldn't shoot slugs through a choked muzzle even with modern steels unless the slug is sized correctly...even cylinder bore choke tubes have a range of constrictions running from ~0.725" to ~0.735" Nominal bore ID for the 12 ga is 0.729" but some of the back bored shotguns are much larger so you need to measure to be sure. But you all know this.

This Paradox gun "which slug to use" is interesting and adding to my learning process...Thanks everyone.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26823
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
#245698 - 15/04/14 12:12 AM

Sorry NONAGONAGIN - no offense meant.

According to Seyfried (DGJ), he sized bullets to just barely bore size or .001" under bore size IIRC. Thus, they were free flying up the bore until they hit the normal .020" (or more) deep rifling.

An oversized slug for the bore would be bore size before it moved an inch, but for him, did not shoot well until they were sized to that .001" under bore size.

As I understood the wording - H&H made "Paradox" guns while the other makers made "Rifled Choke" guns - due to H&H's patent on the word Paradox.

Is this correct?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
#245712 - 15/04/14 12:50 AM

Holland was the only maker and user of the rifled choke method until 1900 when their patents expired. After that other makers copied the system. Westley patented their specialized ammo designed specifically for their Explora and Fauneta rifled choke guns.
Paradox, Explora,Fauneta,Ubique, Jungle gun et al are brand names for rifled choke or specialized ball and shot guns.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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NONAGONAGIN
.224 member

Reged: 03/04/14
Posts: 11
Loc: USA

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: gatsby]
#245717 - 15/04/14 02:05 AM

I didn't see/read anything that gave me offence, Daryl. This game can be individualistic when it comes to guns and if you can't agree to disagree, energetically at times, you should stay off the "net.

I have Mossberg, Rem, Browning, NEF and a couple of OLD, long out of production shotguns and every one of them have a different bore ID's as measured with a dial indicated bore gauge. I'm guessing the same goes for the Paradox guns.

Not only that but bore size varies within brands...my Mossy 500 18" cylinder bore is different than the 24" barrel and the 535 barrels are different still...not by much, a couple thou one way or the other and my friends Beretta is "worse" yet...doesn't bother much seems like...you just have to develop a slug load for what the gun shoots best.

Just like missing the forest for the trees...or visa versa...these discussions(on every forum I've been to) can fall into nit picking over minutia and miss out on the good stuff in the bigger picture.

I always learn a great deal from the minutia, many times specific to one gun. But what is very important to one person isn't very important to another and a 0.001" +/- may or may not cause much of a ruckus in another application. I fit the bullet to whatever the gun likes for a range of loads and accuracy levels...or not...same with all my rifle/pistol calibers. Accuracy for a sage rat at 500 yds plus is much different than what is required for an Elk at 50 yds.

I think the Paradox gun might be a god idea that came and went...but could also come back. In todays world we keep recycling, we get bored easily and just about ANYTHING new-to-us can get a new lease on life.

I've been at this game 60 odd years, done most of it many years, killed my first LEGAL deer with a 12 ga SXS Fox double with the old Rem punkin' ball(lots of deer with a 22LR) when a freshman in HS, got totally bored with most of it and now I'm back to very large bores, heavy slugs and a fresh look at things. I think that's very cool.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26823
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
#245731 - 15/04/14 04:30 AM

Thanks Gatsby - that is very close to what I surmised.

Excellent - my Mossy 835 rifled 24" bl. is .724", groove to groove. The 30" smooth bore is simply oversize at .735".

With Herco powder, my only test so far, I handles the undersized .710" (Tanner Mold) round balls beautifully even though it has the rather 'fast' 35" twist.

I need to test some heavier .724" balls (Tanner Mould) I cast some time ago, with Longshot and Steel powders. I should be able to get close to 2,000fps with "Steel" - I think, we'll see.

Loading somewhat undersized round balls inside a shotshell, but patched in cloth to take up the windage has worked well for me and also for my 'local' friends - it is something that should/could be considered as there is no leading. The ball itself does not contact the rifling, but is spun by it as if engraved. They are, of course, lighter than the Paradox or other elongated bullets - being close to the 3/4 rule? - a .715" ball weighing 545gr. in pure lead, whereas a .730" ball weighs 583gr.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: DarylS]
#245735 - 15/04/14 04:50 AM

We have a member here (grenardier, I believe...) who owns and shoots a modern production H&H Paradox.

I'm sure he could comment on the effectiveness of the design based on modern production and modern ammunition.

Gatsby - how many different Paradox guns have you owned and shot?
We have other members who also own/ed Paradox, Explora, Ubique, and others from other makers.

Also see Hamilton Bowen's work with special ball/shot revolvers.
A common theme with the long guns and Ham Bowen's revolvers seems to be relatively abrupt and severe choke rifling. Bowen uses Colt brass and bullets through backbored .44mag barrels.
Someone here can share the bore and constriction numbers from their ball/shot guns.
Successful bullet designs all seem to have one deep and wide grease groove and they tend to be cast of relatively soft alloy - both for the long guns and for the Bowen revolvers.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Sarg
.400 member

Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
#245743 - 15/04/14 07:45 AM

Quote:

" Turning and honing out the rifling and leaving 3-6" of rifling would be a giant waste of time but if done right with a bit of run in for the shot/slug shouldn't be too hard and should shoot just as well as a "real" Paradox gun. Getting the smooth bore section the correct ID is no problem...just deep hole drilling so to speak. I couldn't do it with my loosey-goosey lathe...bed isn't long enough besides."

When I was hunting in Japan (where they have some unusually/strange rules/laws on firearms & life in general)
The easiest firearm license to get & keep is a smooth bore Shot Gun, they have made amendments to that & you can have a small part of the barrel rifled, so fully rifled barrels need to have a large part to most of the rifling removed !

So when I asked about this I presumed that it would be like a Paradox type & leave rifling at the end of the barrel, the guys said "no that does not work well" ??? & it is removed from the muzzle end ???

Any way this way worked very well, shot 2 1/2in to 4in groups at a 100yd with Barnes Expanders (no lead allowed now days) & killed deer to 200yds + it could be used on Ducks, doesn't make sense, but it worked !

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: tinker]
#245753 - 15/04/14 10:35 AM

Quote:

Gatsby - how many different Paradox guns have you owned and shot?
We have other members who also own/ed Paradox, Explora, Ubique, and others from other makers.

Cheers
Tinker

Double digits, all rifled choke HH and WR 8,10 12 and 20. I hope to own and reload for one of the invisible rifling systems one day.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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Ruger_450
Banned

Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
Loc: WY & FL

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Huvius]
#245805 - 16/04/14 02:48 AM

My 452 was made by the late Don Brown in WA. I bought it slightly used from the late Thad Scott in MS.

Killed one ancient speed goat w/it near my home at 90 paces. Belly crawling through the cactus and sage with a drag bag at age (then) 69 is real hunting.

WG&F biology guy said it was the oldest speed goat he had ever seen.

I have now "ruined the rifle" by putting an 6X Unertl small game scope on it that allows me to ring the 400 yard gong almost every shot. Mounts are dovetailed into bbl as it must be slightly offset to clear hammer. I also have the huge Venier tang sight for it. Easy resroration for some future owner.

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Ruger_450
Banned

Reged: 10/03/13
Posts: 163
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Ruger_450]
#245806 - 16/04/14 02:54 AM

BTW, if you happen to stop in the H&H gun room in NY City they have their new Paradox ammo on display.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3547
Loc: Colorado

Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Ruger_450]
#245812 - 16/04/14 03:28 AM

Super nice BP rifle 450!
That is a very close replica to my Alex Henry which unfortunately I have not shot yet.

Maybe we could move this over to the muzzle loading section for its own thread and out of the paradox discussion.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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NONAGONAGIN
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Reged: 03/04/14
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Re: .730 paradox bullets needed [Re: Huvius]
#245814 - 16/04/14 04:12 AM

YES...very nice shooter!!!...450

I'm not convinced you have "ruined" that superb rifle. I'm not sure when telescopic rifles were actually first installed on rifles, but I know 'scopes were put on Sharps way back when.

I will be putting one of the Wm. Malcolm "shorty's" on my 50-90 Sharps soon...I HAVE to have a scope if I want to hit anything. My old eyes and beginning cataracts in my sighting right eye force me into it.

I also think a 'scope on the "oldies" adds a certain ambiance and "down to business" vision.

Sarge...ANY firearm made of wood and metal can be fiddled with, both materials being very amenable to modification. I don't know exactly how H&H does their partial rifling as there are several methods that can be employed, but I'm guessing they used cut rifling in the old days and maybe in todays world also. Hammering around a forming mandrel or button rifling are two other methods. The barrel is finished before installing or the fully rifled barrel is removed, the mods performed, then the barrel is reinstalled...again a fairly simple procedure with the correct machine/tools.

You Guys are a "bad" influence on me...I'm now wondering about doing a Paradox barrel on a muzzle loader or doing a Paradox stub barrel on one of my NEF single shots....or???...I'm way too cheap and poor to buy an H&H or fully finished rifle.

Ahhhh...where are you Lady Luck, when I need you?

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