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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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drbd
.224 member


Reged: 29/11/11
Posts: 45
Loc: belgium
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: drbd]
      #242904 - 23/02/14 02:33 AM

Let's try the pics of the francotte...it's my first time posting pics so we'll see (already loaded them to photobucket before I saw your PM lancaster...)
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/eline007/proofmarkfrancotte_zps3e95985d.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/eline007/francottecal24_zps3ebee328.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/eline007/francottecal24-1_zps159fdb3f.jpg

any information is welcome!
Would reloading dies for the regular brass 24 cases (65 mm) also work for the short 40mm cases?
Best regards,
Benny

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27097
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: drbd]
      #242914 - 23/02/14 04:08 AM

That is a NICE rifle!

I have a 12 bore action, maybe I should do something with it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: DarylS]
      #242918 - 23/02/14 05:50 AM








if realy 24/40 its an very unusual Martini

I see proofhouse Liege after 1893 and rifled barrel but what is the upper mark? anyway no nitro proof so black powder only for the start.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #242919 - 23/02/14 05:55 AM

"Would reloading dies for the regular brass 24 cases (65 mm) also work for the short 40mm cases?"

answer NO

without a chamber cast we only guess

you can order a die set when you have a chamber cast, CH4D is allways a good idea
maybe a 577 Snider die set is working with some clever adjustment

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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buckland
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Reged: 05/02/12
Posts: 3
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #242923 - 23/02/14 07:22 AM

it has a smoothbore left hand barrel but fully rifled in the right hand barrel with a 3" chamber. It has a right hand twist with deep rifling

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: buckland]
      #242924 - 23/02/14 08:06 AM

Buckland you seem to speak of a double barrel gun but the photo shows a single barrel martini.

More photos please...

Thanks and also, welcome to NitroExpress!








Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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drbd
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Reged: 29/11/11
Posts: 45
Loc: belgium
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #242946 - 23/02/14 08:50 PM

Regarding the proof marks: the upper one is an " X ", then we have R with a crown on top of it (meaning Royal probably)
Best regards,
Benny

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: drbd]
      #242947 - 23/02/14 08:53 PM

R with crown is a proof mark for a rifled barrel, dont know what X means

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: buckland]
      #242948 - 23/02/14 09:03 PM

Quote:

it has a smoothbore left hand barrel but fully rifled in the right hand barrel with a 3" chamber. It has a right hand twist with deep rifling



be careful , if it realy have a 3" long chamber this was probably not made for the modern high pressure 3" loads
such 3" chamber were used most times for clay pigeon guns in the old blackpowder times to get more powder and shot into the case.
if your gun is otherwise in good shape and NITRO proofed there is no reason you dont try any modern slug load so long its not fin stabilised. such slugs are realy designed for flying without a thist!
you dont mention the gauge - its a 12ga? sabot slugs will work maybe better than brennecke style slugs.

pics of the gun and proof marks will be nice, if necessary I will help you to post it

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #242963 - 24/02/14 06:52 AM

Quote:

R with crown is a proof mark for a rifled barrel, dont know what X means


As it is a Manufrance gun, the "X" may be the St.Etienne proofmark, actually depicting 2 crossed palm leaves. If so, the crown/R mark stands for a repair or reproof after alterations. Now there is a problem: The exact shape of that crown stands for either blackpowder or smokeless proof! A photo of these marks would be of help in identifying the proof.

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #349104 - 11/01/21 05:22 PM

Putting this back into circulation.

Very good study here.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #349108 - 11/01/21 11:56 PM

Since this thread is back...

Im wondering if it would be possible to load full length brass cases for 410 Shotshells with the bullet exposed like a "rifle" cartridge? Im picturing a BP 410 "Rifle" cartridge

I already load roundball slugs in them using a "crimping" tool (made by a member here) to put a 3 point crimp on the case, but I was thinking a loaded lead bullet would be cool in a 410 rifled barrel.

I "know" I can form full length 410 cases from 303 and 9.3x74R cases. It seems possible to my novice eyes???

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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tinkerModerator
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #349109 - 12/01/21 12:51 AM

I do, with 9.3 brass. I need to thin the neck for my particular application.

It depends on your chamber/throat/etc, and you need proper tension to hold the bullet, but given the clearance you should be good to go

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #349124 - 12/01/21 06:15 AM

Quote:

I do, with 9.3 brass. I need to thin the neck for my particular application.

It depends on your chamber/throat/etc, and you need proper tension to hold the bullet, but given the clearance you should be good to go



Tell me more. What bullets do you use? Im sorta fixated on using BP or BP substitute for some reason now. Ive been playing with using 460SW brass but Id kinda like to up the ante to 2 1/2 or maybe 3" brass. For now Ive got enough 2 1/2" shells to play with and Im open to having RMC turn some 3" cases, if the idea works

Ill be using a barrel insert for 45LC with a lengthened chamber. If it really turns out Im thinking about building something custom

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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tinkerModerator
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Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #349137 - 12/01/21 09:29 AM

I'd need to double check notes, but the XTP 300gr jacketed hollow point and a case full of rifle powder.
Ridiculous energy, ridiculous recoil - out of the 45/410 contender handgun.

I also ran loads that were mild and manageable.
There is a lot of room for a wide range of loads.
My advice is to maintain a high load density and use magnum primers for the smokeless rifle powder.
I don't recall using black in the 9.3 brass, but I'd definitely give it a go. Lots of case.capacity. Large pistol primers would be good for the black powder loads, if you will be using real black powder.

The long brass just makes it easy to reach the chamber throat, and the 9.3mm brass is very tough.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #349145 - 12/01/21 12:20 PM

If you recall, Id love to hear some of your bullet choices. Are you running 451, 454, or? What length cases are you running?

Im leaning toward BP (more likely substitutes) as much for the smoke as for the history

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (12/01/21 12:25 PM)

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #349146 - 12/01/21 12:27 PM

451 jacketed works with the Thompson Center barrel.
Your bullet choice should be considerate of whatever barrel you use.

If you're going to use the Holy Black, think about going with cast bullets. You'd be even more in tune with the universe if you went paper patched!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9101
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: tinker]
      #349290 - 16/01/21 04:48 AM

btw, if you looking for a good book about slugs

https://www.amazon.de/Flintenlaufgeschos...ooks&sr=1-3



https://www.amazon.de/Flintenlaufgeschos...AFC5D03KT4WM23H

one of the authors is a close friend but I don#t get money for recommend it here



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27097
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: slugs, bore gun and paradox cartridges [Re: lancaster]
      #349295 - 16/01/21 06:04 AM

Black powder with jacketed bullets can deliver some surprising accuracy.
My bro's .45 3 1/4" Shiloh Sharps had only .0015" deep rifling - yes 1 1/2 thou, yet with 100gr. 2F GOEX and 300gr. Jacketed Hornady's, he made many 3-shot cloverleaf groups at 100 meters, and 3/4" to 1" 3-shot groups with the same load and 500gr. Hornady RN's. We didn't chronograph these loads for some reason. They were accurate and the next jacketed bullet just pushed out all the fouling from the last shot, with never more than one shot's fouling in the bore.
We drilled nad tapped the top flat to hold a Williams base and mounted a 2 1/2X Bushnell scope for load testing.
Yes = cloverleafs at 100 meters with a 2 1/2X scope.

I had forgotten about 9.3x74 brass being usable as long .410 brass. Good stuff. Years ago, I had planned on rifling the chokes of a .410 SxS shotgun, but I've never had one of those to work with. My buddy would not donate his for this experiment. It would have turned out about like a .40-82 Winchester, but more of a "paradox" instead of fully rifled.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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