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granhaven
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Loc: Denmark
On the subject of European big game and premium bullets.
      #237824 - 15/11/13 07:05 AM

Pursuing a childhood dream of an African Buffalo, I found a second hand Gebr. Merkel in Caliber 375 H&H Flanged Magnum. The rifle is a model 223 with side locks and scoped for driven hunts.
The plan was to use it on driven hunts on boar and red deer and get a working relationship with the rifle and to know how the bullet(s) perform before going to Africa. This has however proved to be somewhat a mission impossible for a number of reasons. I have used the rifle on driven hunts in the last season and also in the beginning of this season as well
.
On driven hunts I prefer to use a relatively heavy slow, round nose (RN) type of bullet that will give a moderate exit wound roughly at the size of a golf ball, the bullet must exit to give a reasonable blood trail to follow, but still expand well and damage lung and heart tissue. The RN is preferred on driven hunts for security reasons as well as stability in a not always clan shot in dense undercover.

However all bullets that I have tried so far do not expand significantly, at least at the speed that I can reach with a reasonable pressure suitable for a double rifle. The Woodleigh 300 grains Weeldcore, 270 grains weeldcore and the Hornady Interlock RN in 300 grains have all been tested on boar and deer. The result is without exception that the bullet does not expand and the exit wound is roughly the size of the entry hole. This is also the case when hitting bone in the spine.
The chronographed speed is app 725 m/s for all loads, so it should be within the workable range for both the Woodleigh and the Hornady.

My second headache in this is that the double rifle does not perform well at this speed; 650 m/s give a reasonable clustering of the upper and lower barrel, whereas 725 m/s give a crossing of app 15 cm at 50 meters. These two factors work against each other, the bullet performance dictates a higher impact speed to obtain the required expansion and the barrel conformance of the barrels dictates a significantly lower speed. I have experimented with different powders VV150 VV160 and MRP2 , but no real difference here.

I could live with the lover speed of 650 m/s if only the bullet expansion this speed was acceptable but I haven’t found this bullet yet.

I could reregulate / re-solder the rifle to perform with 300 grains at a speed of app 725 m/s which I consider the maximum for the health of the rifle and me, but even at that speed the bullet expansion is not suitable.

In my other double rifle, a 7x65R Gebr. Merkel I use the most non-premium bullet I know of, the 9 grams Sellier & Bellot (a Round Nose) and the results have always been excellent on driven hunts as well as stalking for deer and boars. According to a friend of mine, these bullets are not worth the cardboard box they come in but my records show that S&B and I have shoot more than most hunters’ dream of in a lifetime.

The poor bullet expansion has lead me to think that the performance of these bullets on larger game will be similar poor, not that it will not kill a buffalo with a lung shoot, but it will simply take too long before it drops dead in its tracks. It seems to me that these bullets were created for bolt rifles in 375 with a slightly higher speed and pressure limit than what I can reach with my double rifle.

Any ideas or thoughts on the subject?


Edited by granhaven (15/11/13 07:25 AM)


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gryphon
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: granhaven]
      #237829 - 15/11/13 09:29 AM

I agree about your sentiments about the cheaper pills. I shot a bull moose recently with a 6.5x55 using P/P 156 grain bullets...about $10 AUD a box of 20.

Definitely non premium but they did the job.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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500Nitro
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: gryphon]
      #237832 - 15/11/13 10:48 AM

I am surprised you can't get a RN Woodleigh to expand on a boar or a Red deer.

I wouldn't expect golf ball size exit holes but I would
expect them to expand.

I have use them out of a 375 before and I also did extensive testing on the 286 and 300gn 9.3 Weldcore which uses the same jacket. These tests were at very low to very high speeds to
see what the performance was. The RN open up at almost any speed because of the large amount of lead showing.


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eagleyes
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #237834 - 15/11/13 11:11 AM

Bullets designed for the 375 Winchester lever action may solve your problem for boar and red deer.

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: granhaven]
      #237836 - 15/11/13 11:17 AM

Have you tried Sierra Gameking bullets? In my humble experience, they are very very soft. Are you absolutely determined to shoot a 300 grain bullet for driven hunts? There is a 200 grain Sierra that they recommend not be driven faster than 2200 fps in a .375H&H because of the rapid expansion. I believe the bullet design parameter was for the .375 Winchester, which is a pretty anemic cartridge compared to what you are playing with. Maybe there are other heavier bullets for the .375 Winchester you could use if the light ones are not to your (or more importantly to your rifle's) liking?

Another thought: have you considered cast bullets? You could have a mould made and cast your own at the desired weight out of soft lead. If you drive them at a sedate velocity, they would expand very nicely at lower speeds, and you could retain a heavy bullet. If nothing else, it would give you more things to experiment with.

Edited by Postman (15/11/13 11:21 AM)


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500Nitro
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Postman]
      #237837 - 15/11/13 11:58 AM


Good idea. If he wants a golf ball size hole.

I am not sure why you need a golf ball size hole
in a boar hot with a 375H&H and a 300 grain bullet.
Even a 200gn bullet.

Most of the one's I've shot tend to fall over dead
or even if badly hit, are so stuffed it is not funny.


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Postman
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #237840 - 15/11/13 01:26 PM

The size of the exit hole? Dead is dead.

I do prefer 1. An exit hole; 2. An exit hole that is larger than the entry hole to promote blood loss, and also as an indicator that my bullet did more than poke a narrow hole through the target, i.e. I want some evidence that "some" tissue destruction happened on the way through.

Smaller, deer sized game, 200 - 300 pounds don't seem to need a nasty medium bore like a .375 to make an impression on them, but whatever floats one's boat is a good thing! I once hunted caribou with a gent that pasted one broadside at 150 yards with a .300 Weatherby magnum. He had field dressed it and hauled it back to the trucks by the time the rest of us returned with our caribou. One of the older guys got incensed because when he looked at the caribou, the entire left side of the rib cage was missing, and he railed on about the Weatherby shooter's weird field dressing method of removing the entire side of the animal! The old gent grabbed the antlers and flipped the caribou over so the missing side was hidden from view from any passers by in the event they may have thought the group didn't know how to field dress an animal. We all smiled about that one for a few years! On the other extreme, we had another gent shooting a .45-70 using a heavy slow bullet that plowed a hole through his caribou, but without the dramatic effect of a disintegrated rib cage. The hole was closer to golf ball size on the exit, and maybe less, but the caribou was still just as dead. Nobody was using FMJ bullets, so there was always a reasonable exit hole.


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500Nitro
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Postman]
      #237841 - 15/11/13 03:07 PM


Depends on the animal re exit holes for me.

I agree re larger than entry but more important
is I like the ragged wound channels that Woodleigh's
produce due to the "petals" as these seem to bleed well.

Sometimes of course the bullet stretches the skin on the off side and the bullet is found underneath.

But as you say, dead is dead and I find it hard to believe
a well shot Red deer or Boar is not dead with a 300gn Woodleigh out of a 375H&H.



GRANHAVEN
Do you know they haven't expanded for sure ?
Have you ever found any of the bullets inside ?

What happened to the animals ? Were they dead,
did they run off, did you need multiple follow
up shots ?


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #237843 - 15/11/13 06:16 PM

I have shot 4 red deer, a fallow and about 15 boar with a .375 shooting Woodleigh 300 grain soft points in Spain. I never recovered a bullet but they all went down within 40 yards. Dead is dead, best,
Mike


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Postman
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #237849 - 15/11/13 10:25 PM

Another experience I've had was with my scoped Merkel 9.3x74 using Barnes 250 grain TSX at 750 mps - or actually 2410fps as measured through my chronograph. One shot was made out of a high tree stand at a "quartering to" whitetail at a lasered 265 metres. The bullet went in at the base of the neck, broke the spine and was found under the skin after passing through the off side rear quarter. The bullet was perfectly expanded, just like in the Barnes sales propaganda. The point here is not the ridiculous distance of that shot, but that the bullet would have been travelling really slowly at that distance yet it still expanded textbook well after passing through the entire length of a good size buck. On a different hunt, 2 caribou shot through the ribs at approximately 50 metres had a golf ball sized hole on the exit, but I never did find either of the bullets. Those caribou each went about 30, maybe 50 feet and expired.

Getting back to the original notion of experimenting with bullet performance, I'm not too sure if what happens in "small" big game will be indicative of what will happen when shooting something as big as a cape buffalo. Although I've not had the pleasure or any experience whatsoever in shooting thick skinned dangerous game, I suspect that it's a whole different kind of game. The books all tell me that heavy weights and strongly constructed bullets are the right answer for Cape buffalo, but I do know that those types of bullets will not expand much in deer or similar game. I also know that the deer don't go far when hit properly with these big heavy bullets. As they say, an un-expanded big bullet is often larger than an expanded small bore. Maybe someone here on the forum can talk about real world experience with big bullet performance in buffalo.


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DarylS
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Postman]
      #237855 - 16/11/13 03:16 AM

2,400fps with a 300gr. Hornady would be perfect, I'd think. Any faster and this thin jacketed RN might over expand.
In Rod. H's tests, the 300gr. Interbond (gold bullet) showed even more expansion than the standard RN, with a typical bubble-gum-stick-together huge final diameter-type expansion. We also tried cup-pointing some of them and the expansion was greater yet, even lower initial speeds.

I suspect if you take a normal 300gr. RN, and file the nose off flat with the top of the jacket or cup-point it slightly with a drill bit (won't take much) you'd see more rapid expansion from your .375 Flanged - yet not alter the accuracy or penetration much, as you'll only be removing perhaps 10gr. of lead.

The size of an exit hole does not always indicate the amount of damage done internally, but is dependent on the expansion, of course, and most importantly, it's velocity and the leading shock wave at exit. A slower moving, expanded and expended bullet that barely makes it through the hide, will make a smaller exit hole than a faster moving bullet, it seems.

If one cuts an animal apart and sees little internal hemorrhage or tissue damage when the lungs should have been well holed (2" to 3"?) or shredded, then one might complain the bullets did not expand well.

Norma's "Alaskan" brand bullets have thinner jackets for expansion at lower speeds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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granhaven
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: granhaven]
      #237865 - 16/11/13 07:06 AM

I will try to summarize the questions,

How do I know that the bullet does not expand? I simply look at the size of the exit hole and see that there is no real difference to the entry hole. Then i look at the internal damages to lung tissue, heart and liver.

Shooting boars on driven hunt the way that we do it in Poland is a bit special, we start at 7:45 and usually finish at 16:30, we manage between 7 and 10 beats a day and there is not a lot of time to verify if there is a dead boar or a clean miss. On a boar weighing 80 kilo there may be an inch or more of fat, the fat will close any exit hole immediately if the exit hole is just one or two bullet diameters. This may lead to situations where the boar is hit really well and there is not a drop of blood to be seen at the spot.

On a driven hunt it is also important that I either trust the first shot or see a good reaction on the animal before moving onto the second boar or deer, and there is only a fraction of a second for this assessment. If there is no reaction, the animal may be hit perfectly and I waste my second shoot at the same animal that is really dead without knowing it instead of taking the next.
It is not so much the question if it kills or not, but more on how and how fast it will do so.

I would LOVE to use the Norma Alaska in cal 375, only it is not produced in this caliber by Norma. I have used it in my .308 Tikka since I started hunting 34 years ago.


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Rhodes
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: gryphon]
      #237885 - 16/11/13 10:14 PM

Quote:

I shot a bull moose recently with a 6.5x55 using P/P 156 grain bullets




gryphon, which bullets were these?


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Igorrock
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Rhodes]
      #237905 - 17/11/13 03:10 PM

Quote:

I would LOVE to use the Norma Alaska in cal 375, only it is not produced in this caliber by Norma.


If I have understood correct, NORMA Alaska is quite soft bullet and works best in moderate speeds. It´s a good choice for example 9,3x57. NORMA´s Oryx is better when needing bullet for faster speeds and it´s very popular here in Finland when hunting local moose.

My friend use Woodleight Hydro when shooting boars.

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/products/hydrostatically-stabilised


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500Nitro
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Igorrock]
      #237907 - 17/11/13 03:53 PM

gran

The boars sound just like our boars over here.

Any bore hit with a 375H&H should go down.


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DarylS
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #237938 - 18/11/13 05:16 AM

80 kilos is only 176 pound. Sounds like a perfect spot for an Alaskan bullet - however.

Just checked Norma's web site - right on the Alaskan and plastic tipped bullets - only up to 9.3mm - & only the Oryx design is in .375.

Since most bonded bullets have pure or almost pure lead cores, that is the one I'd try.

I would also see if the rifle would shoot a lighter bullet - like the 250gr. to 270gr. bullets- or even a 235gr.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gryphon
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Rhodes]
      #237947 - 18/11/13 08:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I shot a bull moose recently with a 6.5x55 using P/P 156 grain bullets




gryphon, which bullets were these?




exactly what it says above.

ah found a link in the UK

http://m-b-r.co.uk/HTML/PPU_65x55_156.html

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Rolf
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: gryphon]
      #238376 - 28/11/13 11:04 PM

Hello granhaven,

I tested Reichenberg bullets (all copper, big hollow point, moly coating) in the following calibers with very good precision:

300 Win Mag
8x57 IS
8x56 Mannlicher
9,3x57
9,3x64
10,75x68

The bullets are available in several configurations (i.e. for standard hunting situations, for driven game hunting with rapid expansion, for fast calibers, for slow calibers, ...).

I do not have experience with these bullet on game, but on the manufacturer homepage (in english and german language) are some information and recommendations about use and reloading:

http://www.spezialgeschosse.de/

If you need assistance, send me a PM.

best regards
Rolf


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granhaven
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: Rolf]
      #238397 - 29/11/13 09:30 AM

Done some testing today,

Found some N160 and tested with a RN Hornady 270 grains.

75 Grains of 160 shoots perfectly together at 50 meters, and 78 grains of N160 with the same bullet only crosses app 1 centimeter.

Now I need to make some expansion testing with the Hornady 270 grains RN. My concern is that the velocity is not quite there


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DvK
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: granhaven]
      #238454 - 30/11/13 09:19 PM

I do not have personal experience with the Woodleighs in .375", but I have seen the 286gr Weldcore 9,3mm exspand willingly even with 9,3x57 velocity. For what you are looking for driven hunts you should might consider the Brenneke TUG. For Buffalo I guess the standard Weldcore .375" 300gr is too soft, after the Informations I have heard and seen.

You state that you find it difficult to shoot the second barrel for game nummer two if you havnet seen the first one roll. To my etichs you should never shoot the last bullet to a fresh game! The meaning of a doubles is the quick follow up shot....

What you describe after the shots in Poland I would personatly not find acceptabel! Every shot taken should be controlled with tracking dogs, polish hunting organiseres will not learn this etichs unless you as a Hunters (read customer) demands it.

DvK


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500Nitro
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: DvK]
      #238455 - 30/11/13 09:30 PM


"For Buffalo I guess the standard Weldcore .375" 300gr is too soft, after the Informations I have heard and seen."

I think the thousands of Buffalo that are dead might
consider otherwise !!!


I find it hard to believe that a boar / pig hit well with a 375H&H 300 gn bullet does anything but fall over even if it is still kicking. OK, a small number might move a short distance but they are still generally well stuffed.

That has been my experience on them and I have shot quite
a few with the 375H&H and Woodleigh's.


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DvK
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #238456 - 30/11/13 09:46 PM

What did Woodleigh then creat the 44HD bullet?

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500Nitro
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: DvK]
      #238457 - 30/11/13 09:56 PM


People's requirements and perceptions of requirements change ?

In some situations, granted, some could say a Woodleigh might be a bit soft. People are pushing bullets faster now than they were and more off them.

The OP was talking Red Deer and Boar, not exactly Dangerous or thick skinned game. If you can't kill a boar or Red deer with a 375H&H, something is wrong.


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DvK
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #238459 - 30/11/13 10:20 PM

But Granhaven did start with the 300gr Woodleigh because he would like some Day to hunt buff with the rifle and he thought it was to tough for European game!
My hunting experience with 375H&H is limiter to A-frames on Cape Buffalo, so as I stated I do not have first hand experience with Weldcore in .375". I do recall on this forum to have seen more 300gr Weldcore recovered from Australian boar. If that bullet do not exit an Australian pig, I do not Think the bullet have penetration enough for buff, but I do also Think it is interesting that Granhaven think it expans to little!?

DvK


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500Nitro
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Re: On the subject of European big game and premium bullets. [Re: DvK]
      #238460 - 30/11/13 10:37 PM

"If that bullet do not exit an Australian pig, I do not Think the bullet have penetration enough for buff, "

Not so.

Pigs / Boars seem to be a law unto themselves. I am not the only one who thinks this and it was originally bought to my attention by a mate of mine. They do some strange things to bullets, it might be because they are often just so dense,
or so it seems.

I've seen them pull up a bullet that exited sideways on a Water Buffalo (big bulls).

Either way, a Red deer should be dead when shot with one.

I shoot / have shot a lot of Water Buffalo with the 375H&H
(and quite a few boars) as well as the 9.3 x 64, uploaded and downloaded to test bullets I believe it is the same jacket as the 375 Bullet. Anyway, the performance is the same.

Yes, it is interesting he says they don't expand.

You do need to section animals as the holes do close up.


We don't need to use test medium here, we have thousand of boars and Buffalo to test game on and ready access to do it where you really can "set up the shots" you want. It makes life intersting when bullet testing. You can shoot on hell of a lot of game in a week and get the results.

Edited by 500Nitro (30/11/13 10:38 PM)


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