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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1233
Loc: Whitetail Country

THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577
#235941 - 22/09/13 08:55 PM

Quote:

"THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577" - - I found a "dandy" 577 with history and a remarkable "story". It has been re-discovered from about a dozen years ago. I will be telling all next week when it arrives.
--buckstix

Quote:

Start the story now and show pics when it gets there!
--AkMike

Quote:

Agree.

Pics can wait, start the story now.

Even if you do it in stages !!!
--500Nitro

Hello AkMike & 500Nitro,

Well, OK.

While I was scouring the planet in search of the elusive 577 BPE, I ran across a "story" from nearly a dozen years ago, about a rifle that had all the things that everyone wants in a fine double rifle. Let's call them the "Lucky Seven".

First, a very fine World renown Maker.

Second, a document from the World renown Maker that substantiates the original specifications.

Third, a Famous Owner.

Forth, a document from the World renown Maker that it was shipped directly to the Famous Owner.

Fifth, a documented history of use by the Famous Owner.

Sixth, a book written by the Famous Owner giving an account of the rifle's use.

Seventh, a picture in the book showing the Famous Owner holding the Double rifle.

So what do you think? Does this sound like a good one? Do you recall hearing aout it around 2001?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#235942 - 22/09/13 10:27 PM

Don't recall it.

but sounds good so far.

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1233
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
#235945 - 23/09/13 01:08 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

The rifle is a John Dickson double rifle in 577 caliber.

Per the original John Dickson ledger, it was originally built in 1868 with the following specifications:

"a double central fire breech-loading rifle, number 2894, gauge 12, for James Robertson, Esq., (stock dimensions) weight of barrels 5 3/4 lb., length 27 inches. Back lock, charge of powder 3 drams, stock unvarnished, spur guard."

What wonderful information!

But, it is no longer a 12-bore, it is now a .577 caliber. This is unusual. However, the Barrels are marked "577EX" and "AH7186".

As I have learned, "AH" with a number, typically references Alex Henry, and the rifling in the barrels of this rifle, is Alex Henry type. A call to Dickson and McNaughton in Scotland with a request to search the Alex Henry ledger indicated that Ledger serial numbers stopped well before the AH7186 number. But, the Ledger also contained some unregistered numbers for after-market work. And there, the number 7186 was listed. It read:

"Specifications of number 7186 - New barrels to Dickson rifle, 20-.577, 28 inch steel, nitro proved, upright sight--standing and two leaves, 1-2-300 yards, usual front sight--plate tip, 26th Nov., 1900, Kynoch solid drawn shell, 70 grs. rifleite, 650 gr. bullet, nickel coated soft nose, barrel weight 7 lbs. 10 oz. for Cap't McNeill."

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 09:56 PM)

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#235946 - 23/09/13 01:49 AM

Oh My! You have Capt. McNeil's 577???

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1233
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: AkMike]
#235952 - 23/09/13 03:24 AM

Quote:

Oh My! You have Capt. McNeil's 577???
--AkMike

Hello AkMike,

Yes indeed, this was Captain Malcolm McNeill's gun. This 577 double rifle is in the "rare" caliber 20-.577. This was a proprietary cartridge designed by the well known Scottish firm of Alex Henry. It is a 2 3/4" 20-gauge brass shotgun cartridge that is necked down to accept a .577 bullet.

Although I was originally looking for a .577 BPE, (black powder express) this rifle is actually a true "Nitro Express" being proved for 70 grains of "rifleite" which is an early form of cordite. This is the same powder charge as the standard .577 NE. These barrels were never intended for black powder.

Malcolm McNeill was born on January 30, 1866, the son of Lt-Col A.C. McNeill. In 1885, when he was only 19, he went into the British army. He served in several African campaigns and also in World War One where held the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. McNeill won several medals and awards during his Military Service.

Unfortunately, he was killed in battle in France on March 6, 1917 during WWI. He is buried in Mont Huon Military Cemetery, Le Treport, France.

During his Military career, McNeill was also a big game hunter. Many of his hunting trophies are displayed in a museum in his home town of Oban, Scotland.

In addition, he also authored a book about his military life, and his hunting trips in Somaliland. The book is entitled, "In Pursuit of the Mad Mullah--Service and Sport in the Somali Protectorate." (printed 1902). In the book Captain McNeill tells of being sent to Africa's Somaliland. Before going to Africa in November of 1900, he purchased the Dickson / Henry so he would have an adequate big game hunting rifle.

The front plate in the book has a photograph of the McNeill sitting with this 20-.577 cradled in his arms. In the book he talks of taking 4 lions, 2 with this 20-.577 rifle.

This gun actually killed 2 Lions in 1901. How cool is that?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 09:57 PM)

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#235953 - 23/09/13 03:27 AM

I sent you an email regarding a prior owner and his time with it too.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1233
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: AkMike]
#235954 - 23/09/13 03:40 AM

Hello AkMike,

Yes, the "second" World former Famous former owner was Cal Pappas. I spoke with Cal last night. He sold this rifle about 8 years ago, with some regrets. We spoke for quite some time, and I acquired a lot of history from him about the gun and Capt. McNeill.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 09:57 PM)

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#235957 - 23/09/13 04:51 AM

Congratulations !!!!.

What a treasure. I saw that gun on GI last week.

I envy you. I hope you will bang many heads of game with that rifle, letting them know that ol´warhorse can still present an outmost danger.

Please post more pictures and show some rangeresults.

For now...enjoy that thing..:)

J.

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calpappas
.275 member

Reged: 15/10/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Alaska, USA

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#235958 - 23/09/13 04:51 AM

Buckstix:
I enjoyed speaking to yo yesterday. Congratulations on your new rifle but I must admit I am blushing a bit with all the references to a famous former owner. I'll work through it. Mike can verify my stature here in Alaska!

The target above is not mine and my velocities were about 300 fps faster with my load of 4198 I seem to remember. Stay in touch.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: calpappas]
#235959 - 23/09/13 05:16 AM

Well done buckstix, superb pick up and I
reckon a perfect home for it.

Again, it shows that hard work pays off.

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: calpappas]
#235962 - 23/09/13 06:55 AM

Quote:

Mike can verify my stature here in Alaska!

That I can! I'd guess that he's about 6' 3-4" LOL. A bit taller than I am!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: AkMike]
#235963 - 23/09/13 06:57 AM

Does this not show that helps and suggestions as to where to get or look for a gun works !!!

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1233
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
#235964 - 23/09/13 07:16 AM

Quote:

Does this not show that helps and suggestions as to where to get or look for a gun works !!!
--500Nitro

Hello 500Nitro,

Well ....... not really.

I search Guns International, Gun Broker, Auction Arms, etc, etc, every night during my "peeing" wake-ups. I found this gun during my routine searches on the second pee' in the wee' hours of Friday morning. I spent most of the time from then (3:30 am) until morning, researching. It was a "new" listing and I started calling the seller at 7:00 am ... and continued every 15 minutes, until I finally got a hold of him around 9:30 am to tell him it wanted to come to Wisconsin.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 09:58 PM)

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#235965 - 23/09/13 08:09 AM

VERY nice, and unusual. I particularly like the straight stock and finger(spur) rest, classic early style

The rebounding locks, medium size, shaped hammers are usually later, possibly updated when rebarrelled? as is the absence of percussion fences (I do not know whether this is usual Dickson style)

It does however, give a most attractive look to the action itself, and certainly different, you have done well

I wish you the best of luck shooting it, keep us posted please

TH44

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: TH44]
#235966 - 23/09/13 08:27 AM

buck

That didn't come out right !!!

But well done anyway.

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1233
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: TH44]
#235969 - 23/09/13 09:52 AM

Quote:

The rebounding locks, medium size, shaped hammers are usually later, possibly updated when rebarrelled?
--TH44

Hello TH44,

Yes, I believe several things were reworked/upgraded, in 1900 when the new 20-.577 barrels were installed by Alex Henry. After all, by the year 1900, the rifle had already seen 32 years of service as a 12 bore.

I'll continue to research. Perhaps someday I'll find some information about James Robertson, the first owner who ordered it from Dickson in 1868 as a 12 bore double rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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calpappas
.275 member

Reged: 15/10/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Alaska, USA

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#235983 - 24/09/13 07:23 AM

Buck:
I you'd like, you may pull my article from my website and publish it here on this forum.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39783
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: calpappas]
#236041 - 25/09/13 03:36 PM

Buckstix,

What a treasure.

And with a history too.

I have always thought it wonderful to know a guns history, who held it, where it went, what game and adventures it was used on. Having a historical rifle and using it too, a treasure.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1233
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: NitroX]
#236048 - 25/09/13 10:03 PM

Hello NitroX,

I couldn't agree with you more more. People always say, "If that gun could only talk." Well, every once in a while, they do talk to us.

Here, John Dickson & Son is telling us the specifications of this rifle when it was originally built on, or before, Oct. 20, 1868. A copy of the original ledger.

Translated:

You can almost see the recorder, dipping his large feathered quill pen into the inkwell and carefully scribing the information, line by line, for us all to read 145 years later.

And then, 32 years after Dickson built this rifle, the rifle talks to us again. Through the Scribe's hand quilled entry into Alex Henry's Ledger, when the gun was rebuilt 113 years ago.

Translated:

And then we have Capt. Malcolm McNeill himself, talking directly to us through his book. He tells us of using this rifle during his adventures with it in Africa. He tells how he killed 3 man-eating Lions, 2 with this rifle.

When you read, you can almost hear him speaking to you "out loud" in your mind.

What an adventure, and state-of-the-art hunting in 1901. On the backs of Camels? ? ?

I'm going to make a promise, that I will use this same rifle, to shoot any lions that terrorize the
citizens of the State of Wisconsin.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 09:59 PM)

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 131
Loc: South Carolina

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#236053 - 26/09/13 12:31 AM

Wow!!!!! Buckstix;

What a treasure.

Transvaal

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buckstix
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Posts: 1233
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Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: transvaal]
#236074 - 26/09/13 07:05 AM

Hello transvaal,

And here's another treat. This Holland & Holland Royal Grade Double Grade was presented to President Teddy Roosevelt. It is on display in the Frazier Museum in Louisville, KY.

Look who's on the list of donors. He's the 12th one down. None-other than our "Captain M. McNeill." The text is from page 28 of Teddy Roosevelt's book; "African Game Trails."

How cool is that?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 09:59 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#236075 - 26/09/13 07:14 AM

Well that is interesting.

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: 500Nitro]
#236080 - 26/09/13 10:05 AM

It'd be interesting to find out who put that medallion in the stock of Teddy's DR and WHY???.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: AkMike]
#236081 - 26/09/13 10:13 AM

He looks the epitomy of an English Officer !!!

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
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Loc: South Carolina

Re: THE SEARCH IS OVER - I FOUND A GREAT 577 [Re: buckstix]
#236083 - 26/09/13 11:20 AM

Buckstix;

That is so cool, I am shivering.

I hope that your heirs understand the value of your guns and rifles, both monetary and intrinsic.

I hope that my grandson will do the same for me.

Transvaal.

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