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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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buckstix
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Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info
      #234861 - 30/08/13 06:46 AM

Hello All,

I'd be interested in any info that might be available on a Bruxelles Double Rifle Builder by the name of "AD. Jansen. I found this littlegun link on "Adolphe Jansen" - http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...dolphe%20gb.htm - but would like additional info if anyone has any.

Apparently his work is very good as can be seen in this Underlever 500 3-1/4 BPE. It has rebounding hammers, Henry rifling, Henry forend lever, and very nice engraving.









I'd be particularly interested in how to interpret the barrel markings.




Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:30 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #234862 - 30/08/13 06:59 AM


Buck

Don't know about you but my FIRST impression when I saw that was it is very English looking / lines.

Nice looking rifle.

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234864 - 30/08/13 07:45 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Yes, it looks very similar to my William Richards from Liverpool. Nearly identicle lines.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:30 PM)

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #234865 - 30/08/13 08:21 AM

From what In read on the ads for it the caliber isn't a "for sure thing" One ad said a .52 caliber the other says .45..Beware..

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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gungadoug
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: AkMike]
      #234866 - 30/08/13 08:32 AM

I have a Jansen Cape gun, the image of this one, but with extensive deep engraving, in 12 ga, and 450 3 1/4", I believe built for British trade as the shotgun is on the right (correct) side, and no set trigger. Seems to be top quality!
Doug

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Huvius
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: AkMike]
      #234868 - 30/08/13 08:49 AM

Quote:

From what In read on the ads for it the caliber isn't a "for sure thing" One ad said a .52 caliber the other says .45..Beware..



.45cal is 52 bore, so maybe saying the same thing.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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AkMike
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: Huvius]
      #234874 - 30/08/13 12:41 PM

But the thing was made in Belgium and is marked with the 12.0 for MM. 12 mm is about a .500 caliber

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: AkMike]
      #234877 - 30/08/13 01:25 PM

Quote:

From what In read on the ads for it the caliber isn't a "for sure thing" One ad said a .52 caliber the other says .45..Beware..



Hello AkMike,

Yes, one listing said 50 cal, and another said a measured 52 cal. And there was a mention of 3-1/4" chamber measurements. The 12.0 mm stamping would indicate a .472 bore, but not sure what the groove would measure. I will find out for sure in a week or so.

Any idea of what the "MESSART" barrel marking is all about? The rifle's serial number is 184 so I believe the "3716" stamping is perhaps a Henry record license number. My W. Richards numbers are 2074 & 2075, dating to about 1872, so I would expect this higher number to be a later date.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #234880 - 30/08/13 02:20 PM

Messart could be the barrel or steel maker.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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kuduae
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: AkMike]
      #234888 - 30/08/13 06:32 PM

Alphonse Massart was a barrelmaker at Henne-lez-Chaudfontaine near Liege.

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: kuduae]
      #234892 - 30/08/13 08:40 PM

Hello kuduae,

Thank you for that piece of information. It has been duly recorded.

Would you have any idea of the production date?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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AkMike
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #234900 - 31/08/13 12:14 AM

I'd guess 3rd July 1916.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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WildCattle
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #234901 - 31/08/13 02:32 AM

Hi Buckstix,
I had seen that rifle as well.
Adolphe Jansen (sometimes Janssen or Jansens) is a well known maker/retailer.
The firm was active in Bruxelles and was registered in Liege from 1859 to 1958.
He was gummaker to the King (of Belgium of course). Located rue de la Madeleine, 27.
MASSART Alphonse had patented in 1902 a method of joining barrels.
Other people have had their hands in this nice looking double. There is an IR mark that I can't trace.
You are right for the caliber, .472 would be land diameter. There are not many rounds that would work.
A remote candidate would be the 12.17x44R Remington.
Best regards,
WC-

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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500Nitro
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: WildCattle]
      #234914 - 31/08/13 04:38 AM


AkMike

"I'd guess 3rd July 1916."


Interesting thought considering what WW 1 had done to that area the two years previously !

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AkMike
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #234936 - 31/08/13 11:56 AM

From what I remember they always put the date on like this. I've for some Austrian DR's with the dates done like this.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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lancaster
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: AkMike]
      #234937 - 31/08/13 01:54 PM

I think Jansen was more a retailer and would bet this double actually was made in Liege ...
like many other british rifles.


would be the same like most of the german court gunmaker who get their guns from Suhl. Jannsen was the leading outfitter in belgium for anyone going to africa.
this here is a 12,7x70(500 jeffrys) sold by Jansen once into the belgish congo and than for decades in the hands of Adrian de Schryver there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKkZawWUqTQ











--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:31 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: WildCattle]
      #234941 - 31/08/13 03:05 PM

Quote:

There are not many rounds that would work.
A remote candidate would be the 12.17x44R Remington.



Hello WildCattle,

One listing for this rifle stated the chamber measured 3-1/4" long so the 12.17x44R would be much too short being only about 1-3/4" long.

I'm guessing this was made for the British market and expect it to be a standard 500 BPE 3-1/4" caliber. A chamber cast will tell for sure.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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WildCattle
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #234942 - 31/08/13 04:03 PM

Buckstix,
A 500 cal should be 12.7mm land (bore) diameter or there about.
That's a long ways from 12.0mm!
There were many caliber variations in the early 1900s especially in Germany, so anything can happen.
You'll know when you get it, if you get it!
WC-

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: WildCattle]
      #234970 - 01/09/13 11:33 AM

so maybe this is a .475 cal.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235394 - 10/09/13 11:59 AM

Hello All,

Well, the AD. Jansen arrived today. I am very pleasantly surprised by its overall condition. Its so "tight" that its hard to open and close. No marks what-so-ever on the recoil face which still has 100% case color. Almost all the wear (mostly on the heel) likely comes from standing in the gun cabinet with typical "show & tell" handling, and not shooting. The bores are mirror bright as new. Even the muzzle faces of both barrels are clean and "patina" bright, showing no signs of having been fired.

I was especially pleased to see the very fancy Heel and Toe plates with yhe in-between checkering.



If I had listed this this Double, I would have said "Looks Unfired" in the description.

The caliber, per chamber cast, is 500-3" BPE. The bores measured .504 and the grooves measured .524, with 8 lands and grooves. A cast of the muzzles shows about a .001 inch choke, measuring .503/.523 inches.

I can't begin to understand why the barrel was stamped "12.0" - if this was "mm" that would have been closer to 45 cal than 50 cal. Only thing I can think of is that it should have been stamped "12.8" and the stamper got it wrong.


...... "muzzle cast" ............................................................. "chamber cast"


The barrels are both marked by the maker. Best as I can make out: (its hard to read the hand-cut font)

- the right barrel is hand engraved ...... AD. Jansen Fab ant D'Armes de S.M. le Roi (see pic below)
- the left barrel is hand engraved ........ 27 Rue de la Madeleine, Bruxelles (couldn't get a clear pic)



I have no clue what any of this means, or even if I got all the letters right. If you know better, please let me know. I'd like to keep the info as accurate as possible for my records.

Oh, and there was another surprise, the serial number is "1".



Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:35 PM)

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tinker
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235409 - 10/09/13 04:04 PM

Looks good so far - more photos please!!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Nordmann
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: tinker]
      #235411 - 10/09/13 04:56 PM

Screws look pretty well untouched (apart from a few small marks on the one on the hinge pin), action edges look sharp, probably never left old Jansons shop. I think its a keeper. Great to see a genuine gun with lots of condition although.....would have been nice to see Holland & Holland on it!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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gungadoug
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: Nordmann]
      #235424 - 10/09/13 11:10 PM

Buckstix, I looked at mine, and I agree with your reading of the barrel stampings. I also have the LR, or whatever, stamp on the receiver flat, with a number 5. I suspect an assembler ID? I also have a 184, and that wierd LR type mark, on the forend hook on the barrel. I also see the 5 on the inside of the Jones lever, facing the triggerguard. I thought I had edited this a second time, maybe can't do that? The # on the barrels is 36??, don't remember right now. That's why I thought this is the serial #, since #1, and #5 would be strange?
Doug

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: gungadoug]
      #235428 - 10/09/13 11:25 PM

Hello gungadoug,

I'll bet you also have a "5" on the forend hook base. That's where mine also has a "1".

Do you have a 4 digit number on the bottom of the barrels? That would be similar to my "3716". I don't think that's a serial number since it appears no other place. I'm thinking its the barrel maker's number.

Originally I thought that perhaps the 184 was a serial number, but I find it no where else. Since yours also has this number, it must NOT be a serial number.

I find the no. 1 on all the major parts, like serial numbers are found.

Got any pictures of your gun?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Buchsemann
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235433 - 11/09/13 12:50 AM

Buckstix,

I'm glad to see that the piece made it to you in good order and that you quickly determined its chamber dimensions, figured you would be on it post haste. With that the "12.0" stamp is a bit of a mystery. If it was the rough bore proof diameter it does seem to be small in comparison to the norm. Going back and looking at the pictures that you had posted at the start of this thread it is hard to believe that the auction stopped where it had; yet another excellent purchase! The English touches, such as the Henry forend latch, and the guns overall condition are superb. Given the time that has elapsed since your surgery I have no doubt that you will be sparking off a few rounds soon to see how it shoots. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

Regards,

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by Buchseman (11/09/13 01:15 AM)

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