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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Plains game double?
      #231379 - 20/06/13 09:42 PM

I just got back from SA. I took my father on a trip for his 70th birthday. I brought my Chapuis 450-400 along and ended up taking blue wildebeest, bushbuck, duiker, and impala with it. My father took a blue wildebeest as well with it.

Anyways I'm completely hooked on DRs, it's just a total thrill. I came back and realized I'd like to get a light double for plains game. I also realize I know absolutely nothing about these rifles. After a little research I'm leaning to 7x65r, scoped with a Leupold VX-6 2-12x40. Do I get it in SxS or OxU? Which is more accurate for longer shots, maybe 250 meters? Am I missing any great cartridges that outperform the 7x65r?

Any experienced brain power would be appreciated! I'm loosing sleep over this decision.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Plains game double? [Re: Rell]
      #231380 - 20/06/13 09:51 PM

They are hard to find, but a scoped Merkle 9.3 x 74R is ideal. If you want something smaller, then I'd go for a double 30-06.

I took a 35 WCF double to Afrika in 2011 loved loved it. I did shoot the Eland with my .375 however.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1636
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Re: Plains game double? [Re: bonanza]
      #231381 - 20/06/13 10:05 PM

This would be quite good:

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4448458

Or this:

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4438166

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Plains game double? [Re: Rell]
      #231393 - 21/06/13 02:50 AM

Quote:

I just got back from SA. I took my father on a trip for his 70th birthday. I brought my Chapuis 450-400 along and ended up taking blue wildebeest, bushbuck, duiker, and impala with it. My father took a blue wildebeest as well with it.

Anyways I'm completely hooked on DRs, it's just a total thrill. I came back and realized I'd like to get a light double for plains game. I also realize I know absolutely nothing about these rifles. After a little research I'm leaning to 7x65r, scoped with a Leupold VX-6 2-12x40. Do I get it in SxS or OxU? Which is more accurate for longer shots, maybe 250 meters? Am I missing any great cartridges that outperform the 7x65r?

Any experienced brain power would be appreciated! I'm loosing sleep over this decision.




What sort of price range are you looking at?

The 7x65R is a great medium cartridge for a double rifle to be used for smaller and medium sized game.

Always depends on what you want to use it for. If you want to use it also for larger plains game such as eland and the like, a larger calibre might be preferable. If you can shoot a .400 recoil should be a problem. Some cartridges to consider:
- 9.3x74R - quite mild to shoot, lots of choices of rifles to choose from. A favourite for European driven hunting. Can be used on larger game if needed in Africa where legal.
- .375 Flanged - the rimmed version of the .375 H&H Magnum. Similar to the 9.3x74R, a little more power, but legal for say buffalo in more African countries if it is needed when a shot presents itself. Might be built on a more expensive double rifle action than the 9.3mm. Something to consider.
- 8x57R - a good European cartridge, similar to a .30-06 in power.
- 8x75R - case based on the 9.3x74R in 8mm. More grunt than the 8x57R.
- 7x65R - a good cartridge in the 6.5 to 8mm range.

A rimmed cartridge is preferable to a magnum or rimless design, but the .375 H&H Mag, .30-06, etc are often also available.

Rifle and cartridge will depend on the maker and what they offer in their models. Most of the above are available. The .375 Flanged is probably the least common but more common today than in recent years. The 8x75R is less common than the others.

Some under and over designs are very accurate and can be quite affordable. Popular in Europe. Many hunters prefer the traditional side by side.

***

My personal preference?

As I have a .450 NE with open sights, and would like a .577 NE, maybe one day, they will cover the big end. I am keen for a scope sighted .375 Flanged in a Heym or possibly Verney-Carron side by side. V-C makes a rimmed .375R Verney-Carron which is a "magnum" sized proprietory cartridge but may also make a .375 Flanged. Not sure and would need to check. The .375 scoped sighted DR could be used for anything a .450 could be used for - ie allow a second rifle to overlap - but also if set up right, allow lots of plains game and medium game use. Similar trajectory to a .30-06. I have a U/O 9.3x74R, it is very accurate, and a great medium game rifle. It has accounted for fourteen buffalo too so versatile.

A 7x65R DR in a light design would be nice too.

Good luck and have fun with the search and eventual rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Plains game double? [Re: NitroX]
      #231402 - 21/06/13 05:30 AM

You might consider something like this pre-War Merkel in caliber 8X65R. This is a Brenneke cartridge, whose performance is not much lower than the .333 Jeffery, a highly regarded plains game cartridge. The 8X65R would be a terrific cartridge for elk or moose, and the double rifle configuration lends itself to driven game hunting as well. http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4434215

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gungadoug
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Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM
Re: Plains game double? [Re: xausa]
      #231405 - 21/06/13 05:40 AM

OK, a question, this guy is in the US, yet we have several suggestions for rifles from egun. Is there no trouble importing, or is there nothing this side of the pond? Am I missing something?
Doug


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Plains game double? [Re: gungadoug]
      #231417 - 21/06/13 11:16 AM

A .303 is not to be sneezed at.

I trust your 450/400 was sufficient for duiker. Glad to meet another addict. :-) Good luck ever finding a cure!

Curl


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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Plains game double? [Re: CptCurl]
      #231429 - 21/06/13 06:00 PM

Here's a pretty Scottish double in .303. The Scottish gunmakers turned out some lovely stuff.

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=2471


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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Plains game double? [Re: mckinney]
      #231431 - 21/06/13 08:38 PM

7x65 is nice but I do like the 9.3x74. Hits hard!


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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Plains game double? [Re: ozhunter]
      #231432 - 21/06/13 09:33 PM

First off 450-400 was enough for duiker, but a 577 may have given me more shot angels to consider.

I'm leaning towards a new working rifle not a classic. I'm 6 foot 5 inches and LOP is always an issue. I'm also positive I want to scope it. Looking at another Chapuis in a two barrel set 9.3x74r (Leupold vx6 1-6) and either a 7x65r or 30 blaser (Leupold vx6 2-12).

What about a VC OxU in 7x65r or something? Should this be more accurate then a SxS?

Any one have a SxS in 30 blaser? I was told to avoid getting another set of barrels in 300win mag for my current Chapuis, is the blaser round also a problem?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Well_Well_Well
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Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia
Re: Plains game double? [Re: Rell]
      #231436 - 21/06/13 11:18 PM

I'd say your thoughts are pretty well on the money. The 7x65R is a fine calibre for those animals and will do very well on your local game as well.

As for SxS or O/U, its really your preference. A chapuis in either is a thing to behold.

You've got a 450/400 for the heavier end of things, with those two rifles, particularly given your special, er, biometric gifts, custom is doable.

If you've got the $ and are thinking of something really special, Giles Whittome in the UK does some nice stuff, he's also about your height.


Good luck!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Plains game double? [Re: Rell]
      #231443 - 22/06/13 01:42 AM

Quote:

scoped with a Leupold VX-6 2-12x40




BTW just my preference but I would not put a big heavy scope on any double rifle. You see a lot of them on European rifles, but my preference is to keep it light, with something in the 1-5x or similar sort of range.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: Plains game double? [Re: NitroX]
      #231444 - 22/06/13 03:11 AM

I agree on the choice of 7X65R
It can drop anything in NA (not that I would take it after a brown bear but you have the 400 for that) and any plains game in Africa.
I had a Genossenschaft (guild gun from Ferlach) in 7X65R and it is a wonderful rifle. Traded it for a Honda 250GP bike years ago. Example of priorities at the time I guess.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Plains game double? [Re: ozhunter]
      #231469 - 22/06/13 06:21 PM

Oz,very nice Hog there !

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HeymSR20
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 244
Loc: Scotland
Re: Plains game double? [Re: Sarg]
      #231642 - 25/06/13 09:10 PM

Nothing wrong with the 7x65R in my mind. I use mine on everything from Roe Deer to big Red Stags. I have a 16/7x65R over and under cobination gun built in Ferlach a J Hambrusch. I will quite happily take a shot at 200yds provided I have a good steady rest - eg a back pack. On stags - 173gn RWS bullet goes straight through giving a good wound channel - its doing 2750fps at the muzzle, yet on Roe I use a handloaded 139g Hornady bullet at c2650 fps - nice and mild. And when I go to Africa, it will be with me. Its very accurate if I do my bit.

One comment, based on my experience with the above gun, is that they are a little more difficult to shoot accurately than a bolt gun. This is more to do with their handing than anything else. Double rifles tend to have the weight between the hands, and are stocked for shooting from a standing position. It means that they handle beautifully and quick onto target.

A bolt action, especially a heavy barreled one (or with a moderator stuck on the end) has a lot more weight out forward, making them a little easier to shoot accurately over a long range. This is not an issue, but you must plan accordingly - I am always looking for good solid field rests on which to rest my pack and it very quickly becomes instinctive.

A double / combination gun also needs to be held firmly, front hand on the forend etc.

You also have to bear in mind that with most doubles / combination guns, the barrels are soldered together, and hence when a shot goes off, the barrel heats and expands and will bend towards the soldered barrel.

In practice I find shot number one from cold barrel goes to point of aim. A second quick shot (ie a quick reload and fire) goes an inch high, 3rd shot is two or three inches high. Bear in mind on combination gun I have just one rifled barrel, on a double, the 2nd barrel will counter this effect, and the barrels themselves are thin and cool very quickly. In practice this is not an issue. The first stag I did shoot with this rifle took three shots - heart / lung shot - first shot he showed no reaction, second shot he slightly wobbled, third shot he went down. Total time - 20 seconds - I was disgusted with my shooting until I grolloched him - all three shots were good killing shots within an inch or so of each other, all three had gone through the heart / lungs and actually the first shot would have been enough. He just hadn't read what he should do with a 173gn Brenneke bullet through the heart and lungs. He did n't know I was there. Most other deer I have shot either drop to the spot and kick for a few seconds, or run ten to fifteen yds and fall down dead.


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Rell
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Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Plains game double? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #231646 - 25/06/13 09:50 PM

Thank you everyone for the advice.

I've narrowed it down to a Chapuis SxS 9.3x74r with a second set of barrels n 7x65r. The only other option is to just get the 9.3x74r for now and get a VC OxU in 7x65r later.

I have been reading mixed reviews on the 30 Blaser so I think I'll pass on it.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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CZ_hunter
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Reged: 08/07/13
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Loc: Prague, Czech Republic
Re: Plains game double? [Re: Rell]
      #232861 - 24/07/13 07:38 PM

From my point of view the perfect combo for plains game in Africa is 300 H&H Flanged and 375 H&H Flanged. You can take all game from duiker to eland.
If you are seeking one caliber only I would lean towards 300 H&H Flanged, 8x65RS or alternatively 7x75R vom Hofe.
As you can see I recommend the rimmed cartridges only for reliable extraction.

CZ hunter

--------------------
CZ


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grandveneur
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Re: Plains game double? [Re: CZ_hunter]
      #232868 - 24/07/13 09:21 PM

I have my doubts if a DR is suitable for hunting plain game in Africa especially if you have to shoot at long range !

By far not my first choice , not either for big game hunting . For a perfect shot placement under toughest conditions no comparison with a bolt action rifle and a good scope !


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Buchsemann
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Reged: 12/12/08
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Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Re: Plains game double? [Re: grandveneur]
      #232877 - 25/07/13 01:25 AM

Many of you have had way more experience than I have, thus far, with shooting DRs at long range but I'll add two cents. The first shot out of either a double or a bolt, when properly sighted in for such to be spot on, is IMHO the same. The second shot with the double is all about regulation and time between shots; the bolt can have its issues as well. I'm sure many "out there" have experienced shot creep with their bolt guns when going from a cold barrel to a warm barrel in just a couple shots. Being a collector as well I do not like to alter anything from factory so if, for example and is the case with a couple of my pre-64 Winchester Model 70s, there appears to be a pinch point in the barrel bedding one just needs to be aware of such and adjust accordingly. Tactical turrets on today's scopes make the adjustment from the range to the field just a series of clicks. This is just me and surely some may think this is silly. Bottom line: Know your gun.

With all this I'll add a thumbs up to Rell's desire to own a 7X65R double. As he's looking to buy new the choice between an O/U or a SXS is a coin toss and either made by Chapuis is an excellent choice. One of these days I would like to find a nice early SXS for myself. I already have a nice 1917 Brenneke/E. Schmidt & Habermann/Oberndorf Mauser chambered for the 7X64 and love it.

Edited by Buchseman (25/07/13 01:58 AM)


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Nordmann
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Re: Plains game double? [Re: Buchsemann]
      #232900 - 25/07/13 10:27 AM

Holland & Holland developed the .275 H&H flanged magnum in 1912 which was a cartridge ahead of its time, the forerunner to the .375 developed in the same year and similar to the 7mm Remington magnum.

This caliber is especially effective on longer range shooting of plains game.

Depending on your'e budget : http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...e-rifles-637551

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Plains game double? [Re: Nordmann]
      #232901 - 25/07/13 10:53 AM


Depends on what you class as long range ?

A good well regulated double is surprisingly accurate
with at least one barrel (we are talking scoped here).

375H&H was a great cartridge in all forms.


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DarylS
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Re: Plains game double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #232907 - 25/07/13 03:20 PM

Listed 250 yards plus.
A good shot with an accurate 9.3x74 will handle to about 350yards max. Most people have no business shooting living game that far away. Some can do it - I-now refuse excepting I'd not hesitate for vermin like field rats, coyotes or wolves.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Plains game double? [Re: DarylS]
      #232910 - 25/07/13 05:07 PM


Agree. 250 would pull me up with a 9.3 unless I had
a really really good scope on it and I would probably
only have a go at things like a fox, a pig, dingo or
wallaby at that range (250) anyway.

Doubt I'd have a go at anything antelopeish in Africa
at that range.


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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Plains game double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #232919 - 25/07/13 10:18 PM

The 7x65r will have be regulated with a Leupold VX-6 2-12x40. I'm hoping that a max distance of 300 m is going to be possible. That's my self imposed limit on unwounded game.

The 9.3x74r will be regulated with a VX6 1-6x24. I''m hoping that I can get comfortable to 200 m with this.

I guess my idea of a long range double is not the modern idea of long range but I've taken enough game at 300 m to know it's way the hell out there. Stalking into 75 m is more fun anyway.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Plains game double? [Re: Rell]
      #232953 - 26/07/13 03:20 PM

300 metres is already a long way out for any real hunting and certainly long range hunting IMO, not counting the need sometimes for extreme long range shoots, eg in mountains where a double rifle would not be ideal at all, and completely discounting the "stunt" LR shots at 800 metres and crap like that.

300 metres would make it a very versatile hunting rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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