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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
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Re: Poll Question [Re: clark7781]
      #21085 - 22/11/04 04:13 AM

Biggest: 500 NE

Worst: 460 Weatherby/458 Lottttttttt...it is a toss up!

I shot a Lott, but not allott; it voided my nose of snott...it can sit in that corner and rott!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Poll Question [Re: luv2safari]
      #21089 - 22/11/04 05:07 AM

In reply to:

Worst: 460 Weatherby/458 Lottttttttt...it is a toss up!

I shot a Lott, but not allott; it voided my nose of snott...it can sit in that corner and rott!






Good one, Luv2safari! I know what you mean about the Lott! It can be brutal in a 9lb rifle, but it doesn't have to be brutal to do it's job properly! I've used two 458 LOTT rifles, and am in the process of re-chambering a Ruger No1 H 458 win mag to the lott chamber.

The Lott is very effecient, when loaded to the same ballistics as the 450 NE 3.25". With 480 gr softs, and solids from Woodliegh, loaded to 2150 fps, it will handle anything that walks on this Earth, yet is more magagable.

Contrary to popular belief, the 458 Win Mag was not designed to give the performance of the 470NE, but to duplicate the father of them all, the 450NE 3.25". It had to use a 500 gr bullet, in that small case to even have any hope of this performance. The 458 LOTT should be thought of as a 450NE 3.25", made to shoot in a bolt rifle!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Siskiyous6
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Reged: 21/11/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Del Norte COunty, CA
Re: Poll Question [Re: clark7781]
      #21104 - 22/11/04 12:53 PM

458 Win, and 10 Guage s/s when I was 15 and about 145lbs soaking wet.

My CZ550 416 Rigby, bad on a bench, esspecially the day I found out that the newly mounted scope did not have enough eye clearance, but it is a pussy cat offhand.

450 Marlin, jumpy little gun that Marlin, even with factory porting.

Sharpest recoil is my sub 4 lb 35 remington T/C carbine.

But, the only one I found uncomfortable is my Vanguard in 300Whea. it needed a muzzle brake, and got it.

One day I shot a ruger 77 in .338 and a Mark V .340 side by side. The Ruger was painful, but the ported weatherby was a delight.



--------------------
Pass it on!

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jhrosier
.224 member


Reged: 21/11/04
Posts: 3
Re: Poll Question [Re: clark7781]
      #21110 - 22/11/04 03:32 PM

Largest .72 (12ga.) M-L pistol, 10" bbl 1-3/8 oz shot, 3-1/2 dr FFg ,hang on tight with both hands!:p

Scarriest (&loudest) .50BBMG single shot, gun recoils ~4", scope eye relief = 3-1/2", a good cheek weld is VERY important!

Hurt most: 45-70 trapdoor, 500gr/case full of FFFg, actually loosened several teeth when fired off the bench.

Why do we think that this is fun?

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4seventy
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Re: Poll Question [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21191 - 23/11/04 09:26 AM

In reply to:

Contrary to popular belief, the 458 Win Mag was not designed to give the performance of the 470NE, but to duplicate the father of them all, the 450NE 3.25".



So, if this is correct, even Jack Lott himself got it wrong?

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: Poll Question [Re: 4seventy]
      #21351 - 26/11/04 02:31 PM

Ruger #3 45-70 500 grn.
Sholder and hand.

Ken
San Antonio

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Poll Question [Re: 4seventy]
      #21352 - 26/11/04 03:02 PM

In reply to:



In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contrary to popular belief, the 458 Win Mag was not designed to give the performance of the 470NE, but to duplicate the father of them all, the 450NE 3.25".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, if this is correct, even Jack Lott himself got it wrong?






I guess I should explain that I don't mean that Jack Lott may have got it wrong when he designed the 458 Lott, but rather that he always (to my knowledge) claimed that the 458 Win Mag was designed to equal the 470 NE not the 450 NE.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Poll Question [Re: tunofun]
      #21356 - 27/11/04 02:17 AM

Biggest shoulder fired weapons. 66mm LAAW and 3.5 Rocket launcher fired at Marine Boot camp...to much testosterone flowing to realy undestand the power I was delivering.

Conventional firearms. Single shot falling block rifle in 50 BMG. Impressive fired standing. Awe inspiring fired from the bench. Boring down range...

50 BMG head shot 240 yds! .22-250 Improved only left parts at the same range. My friend got married and now tucks his shirt in and trims his beard yearly.

Hardest recoil: 7 lb 577/450 Martini Henry sporting rifle firing 500 gr lead bullets with smokeless powder loads that went 2260 fps across the chronograph. I fired the first shot from the bench, the next 4 from the shoulder. The standing shoots made my sinus pop. When I drove home from the range it hurt to make left turns. I also learned that it's true that the little dimpled dent on the back of a Martini action is the place to put your thumb so it doesn't whack you in the nose. Shoots three, four and five were shot with my thumb on the dimple. (slow learner, slow rememberer!)

I use to work for KDF and we would get all the big thumpers in for muzzle brake installation- including some of those A-Sqaure guns. We all had to shoot them before and after. Well maybe we didn't have to shoot them before, but we did. And some of them were stout. The 460 Weather-beater was bad...but this little Martini is the meanest.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Poll Question [Re: 4seventy]
      #21361 - 27/11/04 09:55 AM

In reply to:

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contrary to popular belief, the 458 Win Mag was not designed to give the performance of the 470NE, but to duplicate the father of them all, the 450NE 3.25".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, if this is correct, even Jack Lott himself got it wrong?






HELL, maybe I got it wrong! Damn that three mistakes I've made since 1937

The 458LOTT can easily dup the 470NE with a 500 gr bullet, the 458 Win Mag cannot! I believe Winchester was the one to decide what the 458 win mag was meant to duplicate, not Mr. Lott! What-cha-thank??????????

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Poll Question [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21362 - 27/11/04 10:36 AM


In reply to:

I believe Winchester was the one to decide what the 458 win mag was meant to duplicate, not Mr. Lott! What-cha-thank??????????



I totally agree.

So, Winchester themselves is your source then regarding which NE cartridge the 458 Winnie was meant to equal?

It's just that I don't recall reading anything from Winchester where they ever claimed that the 458 was originally factory loaded with a 480 grain bullet or where the velocity was 2150 fps.





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DUGABOY1
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Re: Poll Question [Re: 4seventy]
      #21385 - 28/11/04 03:43 AM

In reply to:

It's just that I don't recall reading anything from Winchester where they ever claimed that the 458 was originally factory loaded with a 480 grain bullet or where the velocity was 2150 fps.




They never claimed anything of the kind, and they never loaded it that way.

They brought the 458 Win Mag out in 1956, when Kynoch started dropping the loading of NE rounds for double rifles. At that time, they wanted a cartridge that would closely dup the "BALISTICS" of the 450NE 3 1/4" , in a case that would work in a standard bolt action. To come up with the FPE, of the 450NE,and since they couldn't enough speed they had to use a 500 gr bullet, at a lower speed. The problem was, the compacted powder caused problems, after it was stored for a period of time, or shot in very hot climates. The fact is, the case was simply too small to handle the 500 gr bullet effeciently under all field conditions. The 450's FPE was the target, but since they couldn't consistantly get the speed, they had to use the 500 gr bullet to boost the FPE, and it did that with fresh ammo, and in test barrels, at 70 degrees F. Mr. Lott saw right away, that this cartridge was a problem waiting to happen in the African bush. Sense he was going to use a full lingth case, he retained the 500 gr bullet,which was easy to get in the USA, with the result matching, or surpassing the 470NE. The fact is, Winchester should have used the full lingth 375H&H case in their 375H&H mod 70 action, and loaded it with a 480 gr soft and solid, at 2150fps to start with, and there would have never been a problem. Handloaders would have boosted the velocity, and bullet weight anyway, to what LOTT loaded it to. IMO, if Winchester had used the full lingth 375 H&H case and loaded to 2150fps the resulting 458 WIN MAG would have been the most popular cartridge in Africa since 1956, for a bolt rifle! The 458 LOTT's popularity is the proof today!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (31/12/04 05:42 AM)

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Poll Question [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21406 - 28/11/04 08:51 PM

In reply to:

Mr. Lott saw right away, that this cartridge was a problem waiting to happen in the African bush.



Yeah, funny about that.
If you ever get to read Jacks report on when he was tossed by a buff after shooting it twice with a 458, it makes interesting reading.
His first shot went into the guts and the second broke a front leg below the shoulder.

His PH finally managed to kill the bull, after firing two more shots from Jacks 458 where one went into neck muscle and the last one hit the brain.

Jack makes the point that one of the 458 solids had mushroomed and shortened.

So what's funny about this?

Well in between Jacks first two shots and his PH's last two shots with the 458 into the bull, ANOTHER 7 SHOTS were put into the animal by the PH, in this case Wally Johnson, from another rifle, a .375 H&H belted mag caliber!

No mention was made about why the SEVEN .375 projectiles had failed to do their job, and nothing was said about their path, penetration, location or performance.

Why should they, after all, the article was written to shitcan the 458 Win and showcase the 458 Lott of course!

Perhaps if there had been a "375" Lott in the pipeline the 375 H&H's dismal performance might have been discussed!



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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Poll Question [Re: 4seventy]
      #21414 - 29/11/04 04:24 AM

4seventy,
All quite valid assumptions, and an indightment on the power of the press, and the need for ownership of ones ideas, to be forwarded as the only opinion that is valid!

All that asside, nobody, with a lick of sense, would think the 458LOTT is not superior to the 375H&H on a close quarters Buffalo, or that a properly loaded 458 Win Mag is not, at least, equal to the 375 H&H, for that matter. The examples you quote from Lotts book, and his lack of comment about the 375H&Hs failier, is not surprising, that is the same as those who say only one type of rifle is suited to to the hunting dangerous game. In all cases they fail to mention the failiers, and only quote the successes, for their chosen type. Some buffalo would take all 11 shots from any caliber you could name, you know that. So that example means absolutely nothing in the over-all for, or against any cartridge. However, over a long period of time, with many Buffalo involved, the failiers of the 458 Win Mag, with factory loaded ammo was a FACT, not prejudice! Conversely, the 375H&H has proven it's self to be a quite capable round over almost 100 years, but like any cartridges, it has it's limitations.

All I'm saying is, if properly loaded the 458 Win Mag is adiquate, but the 458 LOTT is better for the same purpose. Where I personally have a problem with both the 458 Win Mag and the 450 LOTT is that neither are properly loaded by the ammo factories. Above the poor design, the factory loads are the problem with the 458 WM, being loaded too high for it's case capacity, and the LOTT being loaded hotter than is needed. The imporper loading in the 458 WM, causes failiers, the loading in the lott simply wastes componants, and raises recoil for no real benefit over being loaded to the balistics of the very capable 450NE 3 1/4" which has been proven over a longer period of time than any of the tree cartridges mentioned here! Like most wildcat developers LOTT went as far as he could go with his new case, but his cartridge would have been better if he had only solved the draw-backs of the 458WM. Loading his LOTT case to the balistics of the 450NE 3 1/4" would have,IMO, made a far better cartridge. That is the way I have always loaded my 458 LOTT rifles, and they have proven, at least to me, to be very reliable on Cape Buffalo, without the extra recoils, and waste of powder!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: Poll Question [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #21421 - 29/11/04 08:46 AM

Mac,
A good post and I would have to agree with most of what you have said in it.

Edited by 4seventy (29/11/04 08:57 PM)

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Loc: Idaho
Re: Poll Question [Re: tunofun]
      #22780 - 29/12/04 06:16 AM

Tony Barnes' 2 bore double rifle, then a 600 N.E., and neither was a satisfying experience and both required a bottle of Excedrin....

The worst kicking rifle I ever shot was a 7 lb. 505 Gibbs, I sold it after the second shot...

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butchloc
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Loc: faribault mn
Re: Poll Question [Re: clark7781]
      #22784 - 29/12/04 06:50 AM

biggest is the 50 BMG - there just something about touching off 235 grains of powder, but the recoil was worse in a 7 1/2# 460 weatherby

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: Poll Question [Re: butchloc]
      #22790 - 29/12/04 09:09 AM

I thought Jack Lott was using a 375 H&H when he got tossed?
A 460 WBY and a 416 WBY seemed to kick the worst to me.
I have fired over 300 rounds in a day from Barrett .50 cal rifles. The bolt rifles thump pretty good, but the semi-auto is not that bad.
I have found that recoil velocity hurts me more than total ftlbs of recoil.
For example 20 rounds of unbraked 300 win mag bother me more than 20 rounds of 450/400.
20 rounds of 375 H&H from a light rifle bother me more than 20 rounds from my 450 No2.
I would really like to shoot a 577 and a 600 double rifle.

Dugaboy has a very valid point, that after my Safari in Zimbabwe I proved to myself. A .458 cal. 480/500 grain bullet at 2100 to 2150 fps. is a great killer/stopper with very managable recoil.

I still want a 577 or a 600 for my next elephant hunt.
I KNOW I do not need it, my 450 No2 was SUPERB.... I have just read to many old elephant hunting books.

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AfricanHunter
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Re: Poll Question [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #22792 - 29/12/04 09:26 AM

"They brought the 458 Win Mag out in 1954,"

Maybe that makes four mistakes since '37!!

If I recall correctly the .458 Winnie was developed for the market in 1956. By several books and Model 70 serial numbers I have seen '56 is correct, but like anyone else I could be wrong. I still remember Jack O'Connor's O. L. article on its introduction and the picture of the .458 he had Al Biesen build him on a Model 70 action that as he said, "he conned a pal out of." Just a side light.

Anyway, I agree 100% on what you say about the .458 Lott and it's loading. Funny thing, there was no reason for the Lott, we already had the 450 Watts, but I guess Lott needed his name on a wildcat of his own to promote more writing sales. For sure he wouldn't want to talk about how poorly the buff was hit with the Winnie.

There is more than one way to consider big. Bore diameter, case capacity, case length or whatever.

Assuming bore diameter, then .600 Nitro. Hardest kicking is hard to say. Too many years have gone by on some of them, but I recall a H&H Deluxe .577 Nitro made in '62 at a fraction over 10# being a real beast with its 24" barrels.

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4seventy
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Re: Poll Question [Re: NE450No2]
      #22812 - 29/12/04 12:36 PM

In reply to:

I thought Jack Lott was using a 375 H&H when he got tossed?




I have two articles written by Jack about the incident and in both he says he was using a 458 Win Mag.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Poll Question [Re: AfricanHunter]
      #22900 - 31/12/04 05:49 AM

In reply to:

"They brought the 458 Win Mag out in 1954,"

Maybe that makes four mistakes since '37!!

If I recall correctly the .458 Winnie was developed for the market in 1956.




AfricanHunter, you are quite correct,it was 1956, and I edited my post to reflect that! I guess I nned the edit the post about 4 mistakes, from 3, as well......HUH?

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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robthom
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Re: Poll Question [Re: clark7781]
      #23212 - 03/01/05 05:12 AM

The 'biggest' rifle I have fired = BRNO/'CZ' .416 Rigby.

I did not hold on, or should that have been lent down on!, the forend tight enough. All I saw through the 'scope was sky when I fired.

The worst, felt recoil = my Win Mod 70 .375H&H mag.

This was a re-barrel job from their new classic rifle. The original calibre was .300Win Mag. The stock was too narrow/ shallow and the rifle was (then) underweight for the .375H&H chambering. I have had that fixed now though.





--------------------
God is not on the side of the big battalions but
the best shots (Voltaire)

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vapodog
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Reged: 28/12/04
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Re: Poll Question [Re: robthom]
      #23216 - 03/01/05 06:00 AM

biggest rifle (non shotgun now) is the .404 Jeff and the worst recoil is from a lightweight .375 H&H

Pretty mild stuff compared to some of you folks.

--------------------

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