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Buster95
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Reged: 01/11/10
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Loc: Canada
458 win mag 22" barrel
      #224213 - 24/01/13 11:14 AM

Anything wrong with a Zastava M70 in 458 Win mag with a 22" barrel?

Photo of the actual gun


Edited by CptCurl (10/06/13 09:57 PM)


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tophet1
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Buster95]
      #224216 - 24/01/13 12:05 PM

Nothing. I'd buy one as a cheap knock about big bore. Probably will one day (or a CZ).

I like a longer tube to get the muzzle blast a bit furthur away. I don't like recoil and I see muzzle blast as adding to perceived recoil. I also like a slightly muzzle heavy rifle so I would check the balance.

I believe the .375H&H Zastavas have had the actions 'opened up' if that concerns you. The .458 is on an untouched standard length action.


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Buster95
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: tophet1]
      #224217 - 24/01/13 12:19 PM

CZ are about $500 to $600 more here in Canada. Are you sure standard 98 action are untouched for the .458?

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JUSTIN270
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Buster95]
      #224223 - 24/01/13 12:49 PM

Just got one in 9.3x62. Very good value for the price.

--------------------
A Rifleman Knows How To Shoot, But A Hunter Knows When To Shoot


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Altamaha
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: JUSTIN270]
      #224225 - 24/01/13 01:06 PM

My 458 win has a 18 inch barrel and NECG front ramp, rear aperture sight. Nice brush gun. Same action as the one in the photo.

22 is just about perfect. I have a 458 Lott with a 24 inch barrel.

Try some cast bullets for fun. Good pig busters. I can push these 2000 ft/sec in the Lott. Excellent bullet for dark timber Elk and Moose if you have a grizz problem.



Edited by CptCurl (10/06/13 09:57 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Altamaha]
      #224231 - 24/01/13 02:06 PM

That's a good looking bullet, Altamaha. LBT Blue's good stuff too.

A standard M98 works just fine for a .458 Mag. The rails need to be opened up a bit of course, and the bolt face modified.

The 500gr. Lee gas check bullet, dropping from the mould at 506gr. in WW alloy, was good in my .458 Alaskan right to 2,200fps. At that speed, it held an inch at 100 meters off bags. It also had a 23" on a M70 action. The recoil was to much for me, so I set the barrel back to the neck area, then re-chambered it to .458 2". I was much happier with a 400gr. bullet at 2,150fps with only 51gr. H4198, instead of the 62gr. Re#7 it took to get the same ballistics in the larger .458 Alaskan.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #224233 - 24/01/13 03:11 PM

Tophet1 makes some good points;

"I like a longer tube to get the muzzle blast a bit furthur away. I don't like recoil and I see muzzle blast as adding to perceived recoil".

However, I guess the question; is a .458 Winchester with a 22" barrel a good idea, depends on the unspoken part of the question: for what purpose?

If you don't need every last foot-pound you might get from a 24" barrel to put down several of Africa's tougher big five, then it may not matter much beyond the recoil blast issue. A number of Australian hunters use .458 Winchesters for Sambar deer, (quite a large species), but use 350 grain bullets. The reason being to put these deer down on the spot so they can't run 100 yards and then be impossible to find or difficult to recover in thick bush. That Zastava would be fine in such a role in close country. But you won't pull off too many 300 yard open country shots with it because of the trajectory of the relatively slow/blunt bullets.

So would a 22" barrel .458W also make good sense for, say, Canadian black bear at closer ranges? Sure. The Winchester Model 70 in .458W was, as I recall, also a 22" barrel and this made it nicely balanced rifle that was also a handy gun in scrub. However, it lacked weight and this meant many people soon became recoil shy using it. You don't find many big bores with a worn out barrel. In contrast, the Sauer 90 in .458W, the one I handled at any rate, was several pounds heavier in part because the company used a special dense stock wood called bubinga. I bet their owners thanked Sauer every time the came back from the rifle range.

By choosing the right powders, you could probably find one that doesn't need to be too compressed but which delivers good velocity in the shorter 22" tube - or not. It'll depend on such things as free-bore and you'll need a chronograph to establish that yourself.

If it were me, I'd look for a rifle with those extra 2" to shoot full-powered 500 grain loads, (and a bit more weight), if I wanted to get full performance. But the choice would boil down to the "for what end use?" question. If I were Africa bound, I might be much more inclined to take a 10 pounds scoped .375H&H that can reach out much further in open country and/or a .416 Rigby that has case volume to spare and which would easily meet the foot/pound energy targets that the .458W aspires to.


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albertan
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #224236 - 24/01/13 06:31 PM

Glass bed the action. Relieve the areas behind the trigger guard and the rear shoulder and tang of the action. This will prevent stock splitting. Accurate Arms 2230 and Ramshot Exterminator will give you 2100 fps with a 22 inch tube without compression. Hodgdon's H 335 and whatever you boys call Benchmark are also good .458 Winchester powders. A lot of tyro's are disappointed with the accuracy they get from lighter slugs. The .458 Winchester has approximately 7 tenths of an inch of freebore. This leads to short bullets tilting before engaging the rifling and as a consequence, poor accuracy. Stick with 500 grain conventional bullets when first figuring out accuracy and point of impact. These heavy slugs do cause point of impact change due to barrel vibration when you are playing with loads.These big boys are not varmit rifles. Free floating only exacerbates the barrel harmonics. I haven't seen the underside of the forend, but many big bores have a bedding block on the underside of the barrel under the front sight. This should be glass bedded as well.

Because there is no case neck as with a bottleneck cartridge, neck tension is tricky. I do not flare the case neck to accommodate bullet seating, instead I use a Lyman (the cheapest) 50 calibre VLD inside chamfering tool. I have never crumpled a case. Use a Lee Factory Crimp die to crimp the bullet. Trying to seat and put a heavy crimp on simultaneously leads to many crumpled cases. Many bulged cases will not clamp onto the bullet to give sufficient neck tension. Annealing cases is recommended.

Once you are onto to them, these big boys are fun.


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DarylS
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: albertan]
      #224254 - 25/01/13 02:31 AM

I would just about law odds that Phil Schoemaker's .458 mag. Alaskan guide rifle has a 22" bl. Too, he's shot moose at well over that 300yard range when the need arose. You'd be surprised what a good rifle shot can do with some practice and a .45 cal rifle.
A strong 350gr. at 2,450fps to 2,500fps, or a 400gr. at 2,350fps to 2,400fps will work just fine. It's just a lot more rifle than I need, these days for moose or big bear. When younger, I thought differently.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Idahoshooter
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #224261 - 25/01/13 06:02 AM

I don't see anything wrong with it, but I may be a bit biased as my .416 Taylor is a Zastava action with a 22" barrel. A friend of mine has a Winchester Super Express .458 with a 22" barrel, It balances well and is a good shooter. If the price is right on that Zastava I would buy it.

Greg


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Altamaha
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Idahoshooter]
      #224271 - 25/01/13 11:37 AM

I have shot the old Barnes 350 grain copper HP X bullets in my 458.

Hmm. 400 yard elk and moose load, shoots pretty flat.

Next time I load up some of the cast bullets shown above I will tip the can a littla and go for 2200 or so. They are fairly hard with some tin and antimony in the mix.


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DarylS
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Altamaha]
      #224273 - 25/01/13 12:01 PM

As long as they are soft enough to obturate a little, they'll probably be OK. Usually if sized at .458" and hard as well, they'll lead. All of mine are sized .459" and soft enough to obturate to allow a seal - with gas checks, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: tophet1]
      #224279 - 25/01/13 03:10 PM

Quote:

I like a longer tube to get the muzzle blast a bit furthur away.




Muzzle blast is a function of several factors including expasion ratio, powder burning rate, bullet weight, and barrel length. A cartridge with a high expansion ratio, such as the .458 WM, using fast burning powder, such as IMR 4198, and 500 grain bullets, will not produce objectionable muzzle blast in a 22" barrel, in my opinion.

Just as important, that combination will leave no unburned powder in the barrel, which indicates that combustion is complete by the time the bullet exits the muzzle.

I have pre-64 Model 70 in .450 Watts with a 22" barrel, which is much more pleasant to shoot from the standpoint of muzzle blast than, say, a .264 WM with a 25" barrel, using H4831 and a 120 grain bullet.


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DarylS
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: xausa]
      #224321 - 26/01/13 09:34 AM

A large muzzle flash can be useful. I had a moose load for my first .458 2" with 22" bl. The moose load was 68.0gr. H355 and a 350gr.Hornady producing 2,290fps. It was accurate enough to sub MOA at 100yards - 3 shot groups and worked very well on moose. During the daytime, you could definitely see a muzzle flash, but if fired at night, it produced a 3' diameter fireball a foot above the muzzle, held vertically.

It's really something to see and 2 rounds fired into the air alerted my buddy who was trying to spot me from the truck, in the dark across a large timber slash. I was working my way back to the truck after the day's hunt and was concerned he'd drive off looking for me further down the main road. The first shot got his attention in my direction and he said the second shot highlighted my whole body to him. I was a good 300 yards distance from the truck.

BLC2 is another good ball-of-fire powder in the intermediate burning range. Of course, there are instances where these would be poor choices.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Buster95
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #224324 - 26/01/13 10:31 AM

Many thanks for all the replies I really appreciate your help, just a quick question 5000 ft-lbs from a 22" barrel with reload or factory ammos is possible?

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Caprivi
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Buster95]
      #224325 - 26/01/13 11:25 AM

Nothing wrong with them at all. MNTBHO (my never to be humble opinion) is that 22" or so inches of barrel is just about right for a 45 cal bolt stopper. I have had a few at 22 and one 458-3" at 20". All where balanced (built that way from the get) well, shot well, handled well and I could hit with them.
One of my all time favorite 458's is the just post64, say 66-67, Super Grades. They still have the pre-64 SG stock shape, but with a bit heavier barrel of 22" long..........sweet.
I have used the 500's predominately, my go-to load is 72gr varget with any 500 for about 2100 in a 22" barrel. The old 400X worked well also with 72grs ReLoder7 for 2350-ish. I shot a Bison with that load.


My last was a 458 Lott on Whitworth (Mark X, Interarms, Zastava, 798, etc....) action. Had a 22" Bauska octagon barrel with a XS ghost ring. I used a Bell & Carlson Medalist frame and made a fiberglass stock with drop belly for the Sunny Hill drop box with Rigby floor plate.




--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

Edited by CptCurl (10/06/13 09:58 PM)


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Buster95
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Caprivi]
      #224440 - 29/01/13 12:51 PM

Just ordered the Zastava from my gunshop, $650 brand new in the box not too bad I think.

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4seventy
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Buster95]
      #224553 - 31/01/13 01:09 PM

That Zastava should be good value for the money.
The 22" barrel should be ideal.


Here's a pic of my old 602 BRNO .458 Win Mag which had a 22.5" tube.



Edited by CptCurl (10/06/13 09:59 PM)


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458Win
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: 4seventy]
      #224554 - 31/01/13 02:26 PM

I have carried my Zastave with a 20 1/2" bbl now for thirty years and it has been the perfect rifle for following up our brown bears.




It's action is now as polished and slick as any Mauser I have ever seen.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Edited by CptCurl (10/06/13 09:59 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Caprivi]
      #224604 - 02/02/13 01:35 AM

Quote:


My last was a 458 Lott on Whitworth (Mark X, Interarms, Zastava, 798, etc....) action. Had a 22" Bauska octagon barrel with a XS ghost ring. I used a Bell & Carlson Medalist frame and made a fiberglass stock with drop belly for the Sunny Hill drop box with Rigby floor plate.







Man--that is a good looking gun...and perfect for hunting abuse in Alaska or Africa..

As to the 22" barrel..think that is perfect..especially in the thick stuff...would NOT want a barrel longer than that personally...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by CptCurl (10/06/13 10:00 PM)


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Caprivi
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Ripp]
      #224618 - 02/02/13 06:18 AM

Agreed Ripp that was its design. Tough and handy.

Sorry to use Buster95's thread for our "hero" pics, glad you did buy one thou. Again I think 22" is about ideal on a Bolt Stopper.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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Sasquatch
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Caprivi]
      #225312 - 15/02/13 02:36 PM

Love the .458 with a 22 inch barrel. Had one once with a 20 inch barrel and it was extremely handy. Seeing the OP's Zastava got me thinking about buying one and 'tuning' it up a bit. As a base unit I think they are a good bang for the buck.

Really like 458Win and Ripp's rifles. Those are working machines for those of us who spend a lot of time in the snow, wind and the rain.

--------------------
Skyline Adventures
www.canadianblackbearhunt.com


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zimhunter
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: Sasquatch]
      #225320 - 15/02/13 03:24 PM

I have a very nice custom in 458WinMag on an 03A3 action with 03 bottom metal. The stock is a nice what looks like birch with a checkered steel buttplate like the old Winchesters with a widows peak with a steel grip cap. The stock is nicely checkered and has a small schnabel and has 3 crossbolts. Bolt has been low forged(I would assume by Les Womack as the bolt root is marked with his stamp) a 2 position winchester 70 type safety has been installed. Rear sight apperas to be a Remington take off. Front ramp is an old Lyman band with a Redfield sourdough front sight. It has a barrel band front swivel base that appears to be custom and only goes half way round the barrel. Scope mount is a Griffin & Howe 7/8" rings and scope is a Lyman Alaskan. So far other than the Birch stock nothing unusual about the rifle other than on an 03A3 (have only seen one other 458WinMag on an 03 and it belonged to a PH in Zimbabwe,Terry Anders). The unusual thing is this barrel is 16 1/2" and has every appearance of being original. The barrel is marked A & M Rifle Company. It was probably made in the late 50's when they were together making barrels. It's nicely blued and overal one fine handling big bore. I would have liked to use it in Africa. Incidentally my 375H&H Brno 602ZKK and my 416Rigby CZ550 Magnum both have 21" barrels. I rather like short barrels. They are so much handier to just plain handle.

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DarylS
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: zimhunter]
      #225346 - 16/02/13 02:28 AM

Here's my .458 with 22" bl. Yeah - it's a lousy picture taken 32 years ago - Fagen Reinhart stock and too much scope for the bush, but it worked when 'taped' at 4X.



Edited by CptCurl (10/06/13 10:00 PM)


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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Re: 458 win mag 22" barrel [Re: zimhunter]
      #225349 - 16/02/13 03:14 AM

Quote:

I have a very nice custom in 458WinMag on an 03A3 action with 03 bottom metal. The stock is a nice what looks like birch with a checkered steel buttplate like the old Winchesters with a widows peak with a steel grip cap. The stock is nicely checkered and has a small schnabel and has 3 crossbolts. Bolt has been low forged(I would assume by Les Womack as the bolt root is marked with his stamp) a 2 position winchester 70 type safety has been installed. Rear sight apperas to be a Remington take off. Front ramp is an old Lyman band with a Redfield sourdough front sight. It has a barrel band front swivel base that appears to be custom and only goes half way round the barrel. Scope mount is a Griffin & Howe 7/8" rings and scope is a Lyman Alaskan. So far other than the Birch stock nothing unusual about the rifle other than on an 03A3 (have only seen one other 458WinMag on an 03 and it belonged to a PH in Zimbabwe,Terry Anders). The unusual thing is this barrel is 16 1/2" and has every appearance of being original. The barrel is marked A & M Rifle Company. It was probably made in the late 50's when they were together making barrels. It's nicely blued and overal one fine handling big bore. I would have liked to use it in Africa. Incidentally my 375H&H Brno 602ZKK and my 416Rigby CZ550 Magnum both have 21" barrels. I rather like short barrels. They are so much handier to just plain handle.




Sounds very cool, lets see some pictures

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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