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CptCurlAdministrator
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Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks
      #22354 - 18/12/04 02:30 PM

And heck,

While I'm at it, why not show the whole package.

If you want a good look at the Woodward, here is a couple of web pages I have been putting together. They will load really slowly because of the photos. It's too wide, so you may have to scroll horizontally unless you have a high resolution display. I'm still learning.

Woodward .450/400 3.25" Nitro Express

I hope you enjoy the look.

CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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4seventy
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22356 - 18/12/04 03:04 PM

WOW!! SWEEEEEEET!!
Great photos beautiful rifle!!

Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 02:59 PM)


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400NitroExpress
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22368 - 18/12/04 05:07 PM

Cpt Curl:

Fantastic rifle, Cap. I've always admired the Woodward Automatic and that one is beautiful. The photo of the proof marks and the caption are enlightening.

One of the things I've really enjoyed about owning British double rifles is the study of their proof marks. They are very useful in rough dating a gun. The serial number of the piece is certainly correct for the 1886-1891 period. Please don't hate me for this, but, the barrels are not original to the gun, having been replaced (by the maker as they are marked J.W.&S.) between 1925 and 1955. The Nitro version of the .450/.400 3.25" was not available yet in 1891.

The proof marks are badly out of period. In 1904, new rules of proof were promulgated, primarily to deal with the changes due to the advent of smokeless propellants. The new Nitro Proof mark - the arm dexter in armour embowed holding a scimitar over the letters "NP" - was introduced at this time. This mark, present on your gun, had not yet been designed in 1891.

New rules of proof were again adopted in 1925, these being, primarily, technical corrections to the rules of 1904. Under the rules of 1904, the proof marks of cartridges of the same bore but of different case lengths (such as 450/400 3" NE and 450/400 3.25 " NE) were identical. To remove this confustion, the chamber length mark (3.25", also present on your gun) was added at this time.

Since both of these marks are present, this rifle passed through the London Proof House, for the second time, sometime after 1925 - with a new set of barrels. Note that when an existing set of barrels are submitted for re-proof, they are stamped with the crown over "R" reproof mark and the new proof marks are stamped right alongside the old which are not removed or defaced. In other words, two full sets of proof marks, plus the re-proof mark, would be present. There is only the one set here, thus, this is the second set of barrels. The pressure mark (Cordite 60, 400 MAX) was superceded with the proof rules of 1954, effective date February 1, 1955. The proof marks on the flats are exactly correct for the 1925 - 1955 period.

I imagine this is disappointing as the caption makes clear that you believed the rifle to be entirely original. Did the seller represent it as such? E-mail these pictures to Purdey's (they have the records). They will be able to confirm the above.
-------------------------------





--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 03:00 PM)


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470Rigby
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22377 - 19/12/04 12:13 AM

Hey CptCrl!

I don't care about the barrels on that Woodward!

Now, if you could manage to get it under MY Christmas tree by the 25th???

470R



Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 03:01 PM)


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Rusty
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #22384 - 19/12/04 06:41 AM

CptCurl
Very nicely photographed. She's a beauty! Congratulations on very nice rifle.

I will have to agree with 400 NitroExpress, those can't be the original barrels. Most likely as he stated, another set added by the maker after the rules of '25.



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Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 03:02 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: Rusty]
      #22397 - 19/12/04 02:33 PM

Gentlemen,

Wow, what an eventful Saturday morning. Woke up early feeling pretty fresh. Left the wife in bed to snooze a while longer. Keyed up NitroExpress.com, and it all went south on greased skids. There for the world see was what I have secretly known all along: that I am an ignorant dolt.

But now I feel so much better. I just came back indoors from my raging fit, having thrown my Woodward .400 into the Jackson River; rifle, case, accouterments, sling hook, sling, BARRELS, and all!! We’ve got a pretty good flow right now, and I last saw it all floating bottom up as it went around the bend below the house. If anybody wants it, you might catch it passing Richmond in seven to ten days.

These facts I do know about the rifle (from Purdey’s): It was delivered in 1891 to the Hon. E.S. Douglas-Pennant; originally a .400; 27” barrels; 8 lbs. 7 oz.; pistol hand stock; cheekpiece.

On November 22 I did send a letter to Purdey’s asking for their records on this rifle. With my letter I enclosed a CD containing the photographs I had taken of the gun, including the photo of the barrel flats, with proofing. It will be interesting to see what Purdey’s reports.

Now, in seriousness, I appreciate the information. I am not an expert on English proofing, or English rifles, for that matter. I suppose I did assume the barrels to be original to the gun. I certainly knew 1891 is a pretty early date for a nitro cartridge. Now, faced with the possibility, or probability, that they are replacements I find that I am more ashamed of my ignorance than of my rifle. Perhaps the rifle was born a .400 BPE and later graduated with a “Nitro degree” and new barrels. Even if this is so, it’s still a Woodward through and through. I love it just the same. In fact, maybe all the more for the improvement.

Any further information is welcome.

And, by the way, it does have sling hooks!

Best regards,
CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 02:50 PM)


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4seventy
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22398 - 19/12/04 02:45 PM

In reply to:

Even if this is so, it’s still a Woodward through and through. I love it just the same. In fact, maybe all the more for the improvement.





Well said!
That is one VERY nice rifle, original barrels or not!



Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 02:53 PM)


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400NitroExpress
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22407 - 19/12/04 04:28 PM

CptCurl:

No, it certainly does NOT mean that you're a dolt. Until you're thoroughly indoctrinated, British proof marks can be confusing as hell. I've been at it a long time, and it took me quite a while to get it. It didn't help that the first reference book I bought on proof marks was replete with errors in the British section, which I had no way of knowing. The number of dealers who regularly deal in British rifles but don't know "c'mere" from "sic 'em" about the proof marks is simply amazing. I recently spoke to one of the worlds largest dealers in such rifles who didn't know the date significance of the chamber length mark - and when you're reviewing a gun for originality, that one can bite you! Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

Did you get this rifle from a dealer and did he represent it as original? If so, have a chat with him. A reputable dealer will make an adjustment. My thought was that you can't do that until you know that you might want to. My goal wasn't to ruin your day. I'm sorry that I did.

It really is a beautiful rifle and is certainly worth serious $ as it is. Any Woodward is a "best" and, in that kind of condition, a work of art. Depending on the price, you may not have gotten hurt at all. I'm a shooter and hunter, not a collector. For me, I would view the Nitro barrels as a plus anyway. As long as you love it, enjoy it and don't worry about it.
---------------------------



--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 02:48 PM)


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470Rigby
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22411 - 19/12/04 05:51 PM

CptCrl

In reply to:

I love it just the same. In fact, maybe all the more for the improvement.




The fact of the matter is that, aside from rifles that ended up in the Colonies, a large number of late British Hammerless Double Black Powder rifles were re-barreled for modern Smokeless cartridges.

In fact, you should regard it as a "badge of honour", that the then owner thought so much of your rifle to go to that expense.

That's why we collect these old rifles, for the "history" that they exude.

Maybe, one day a Searcy, or a Merkel or some such, may come to be regarded in this way, but in the meantime, I wouldn't swap a gun like your Woodward for a hundred of them!

470R

Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 02:51 PM)


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Rusty
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22421 - 20/12/04 12:48 AM

CptCurl,
I too don't think anyone was out to ruin your day. The evidence was there in plain sight for all to see. No one connected the dots, except 400NE.

I'd look at as a joyous revelation. You now know a great deal more about your beautiful rifle. At least you know who your rifle was made for. In the case of my A. Hollis and Son 450/400 3 inch, I have no such satisfaction.

I only know that the barrel action was supplied by Leonard as they did for Jeffery and others in the trades. I would be be on cloud nine if I had all the information that you have on your rifle.

When I bought my Hollis I found a year or so later that the reason my rear sight was so low, was that the barrels were bent. I didn't know it. JJ at Champlin told me about it, after he straighten them. Try that phone call on for size!
I saved for my double, looked long and hard. The rifle I bought was even mentioned in the DGJ in an article.

At first I was mad at being dooped and not knowing. That quickly turned to joy at fact I now had a beautiful rifle that shoots a whole lot better than I do.

Most important of all, My Hollis is stll "My Double Rifle", and that makes it the best double rifle in the world!

We all came here to share our love and interests in Double Rifles. We can here among our peers to exchange information and improve our knowledge of double rifles. That is exactly what has occured here in this thread.

I once told a man that if he needed me all he had to do was call me and tell me where he was. I told him that I did not need to know if he was right or wrong. The only thing I needed to know was the direction he was facing, because when I got there I would be standing beside him, facing the same way.

CptCurl, you are still surrounded by a "Band of Brothers", facing the same way your are!

Best regards,



--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS

Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 03:04 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: Rusty]
      #22474 - 21/12/04 10:36 AM

Gentlemen (and any ladies who may be among our group),

Thanks to all for the many kind and complementary things that have been said on this thread. What began for me as the helpful posting of a photo of a “sling hook” has turned the spotlight onto me and a rifle I own. We are way off topic. I wish this were a separate thread, because the topic is far more interesting than sling hooks. Maybe NitroX can do something with his computer magic.

I want everyone to understand that the portions of my last post in which I expressed profound grief and rage were drafted with my tongue firmly inserted in my cheek. Considering the condolences I received, the humor I intended to convey may have been misinterpreted. I now feel like a hospital inpatient who is being clucked over by a gaggle of concerned friends and relatives. I do appreciate the kindness, but I am not upset. Specifically I want to state that I did not take 400NitroExpress’ revelation as an insult to me or my rifle. I received it for the information it contained. I take no offense whatsoever.

My other statements in my last post saying that I appreciate the information about my rifle and that I love the rifle just the same were serious. I want to reiterate and emphasize that I do appreciate the information. I would not be logged on to NitroExpress.com if I had no desire to learn more about the rich subject of double rifles. Having said that, I would like to ask 400NitroExpress whether he can suggest a comprehensive reference work on British proofing.

There seems to be an undercurrent here that I have suffered some great loss by learning that the barrels of my Woodward date later than the gun. I would heartily agree if these were replacement barrels from Ferlach or some similar mis-match. Not only would that disturb the originality of the gun; but also its very integrity as a Woodward. But that is not the case. These are Woodward barrels on a Woodward creation. As I said, “Woodward through and through.” Although the rifle is not exactly as it was when it first sallied forth in 1891, this is because the former owner saw fit to obtain an improvement or upgrade from the original maker. I can't say that I am offended by that. I still wonder whether these are the original barrels submitted later for nitro proofing? They have the black powder proof.

There are interesting issues implied here. First is the issue of whether the fair market value of Woodward rifle #4457 would be greater if it were accompanied by its original barrels in .450/.400 3¼” BPE instead of the replacement barrels, condition being the same. That question is certainly subject to debate, and I invite all opinions. Frankly, I am not sure of my opinion on that topic.

On the corollary issue of whether I could have bought the rifle for less money, had I known at the time of purchase that the barrels were replacements I will say this: I firmly doubt it (although I probably would have tried).

Finally, I mentioned in my last post that I had written Purdey’s asking for a letter on this rifle. To my delight, the reply arrived in this morning’s mail. It confirms what has been said. The original caliber was .450/.400 BPE. As soon as I got home from the office I photographed the letter. Here is a link to it:

Purdey letter.


I note with wry interest what the letter does not say. There is no mention of the nitro proofing, although I sent the photo of the barrel flats on the CD. Just as Rusty said, “The evidence was there in plain sight for all to see.” Nevertheless, Purdey’s overlooked what 400NitroExpress astutely pointed out.

In closing, thanks again to all for your participation in this discussion. We are all enriched by the knowledge of others. I strive to be a good contributing member to the forum, and I hope as I grow older I will approach mastery of this wonderful world of double rifles.

Sincerely,
Roscoe Stephenson
“CptCurl”


--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 02:48 PM)


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400NitroExpress
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22483 - 21/12/04 03:50 PM

CptCurl:

Your post is certainly well received. Yes, I had the same thought as to how off-topic this has gotten.

As for a comprehensive reference work on British proof marks, I'm afraid I'm at a bit of a loss. The problem with most of them is that they leave you dealing with the "pieces" (which one of your later questions highlights) rather than illustrating the use of the marks as a system. "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by G. Wirnsberger (translated by R. A. Steindler), is pretty good, but has a few errors. The Proof Marks appendix in Nigel Brown's "London Gunmakers" is very good, but this book is expensive. Practice helps a lot. Check the reference books against guns of known provenence and you get the hang of it pretty quick. Pay particular attention the changes to the marks in 1904, 1925 and 1954.

No, I don't think these barrels were simply reproven for Nitro. As stated in my original post, were that the case there would be two full sets of marks, the original BPEs and the new Nitros. I've handled many re-proven rifles over the years and this is the way I've always seen it done. There is only the one set present.

I understand what you mean when you say "They have black powder proof". However, this is not really correct. The interlaced GP surmounted by a crown is simply London's definitive proof mark, and is not specific to black or semi-smokeless. (Yes, I know that many reference books erroneously describe this mark as London's definitive black powder proof mark.) It does not mean that barrels so marked were originally BP proof. Until 1955, there was no such thing as a "Black Powder Proof Mark". As hard as it may be to believe, until the 1954 rules, ALL British proof was black powder proof ONLY - UNLESS the definitive proof mark was accompanied by a mark indicating that "special" (semi-smokeless) proof was conducted ("NP", "NITRO PROOF" or "NITRO PROVED"). The 1954 rules reversed this and proof is now assumed to be semi-smokeless. The same definitive proof mark is still used in exactly the same way. For BP only guns, London now marks "Not Nitro". The marks on your flats indicate full, original nitro proof for a .450/.400 3.25" NE, 1925-1955. The marks of any brand new rifle in that caliber proved in London during that period would look exactly the same.

One other piece of information might be enlightening. So it originally weighed 8 lbs, 7 oz as a .400 BPE. Just right for a BPE, 1 to 1.5 lbs light for a .450/.400 NE. I wonder what it weighs now?

A very Merry Christmas to you and yours, Roscoe.
------------------------------


--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 03:06 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22494 - 22/12/04 03:46 AM

In reply to:

Maybe NitroX can do something




I will give it a try tommorrow maybe if I have more time. The posts in a thread at a certain point can be cut out and form a new thread.

If not just change the title on your posts.

DONE




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (22/12/04 05:58 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #22515 - 22/12/04 03:05 PM

400NitroExpress,

Thanks for the advice on reference materials on English proofs. This morning I ordered the new work by Nigel entitled, British Gunmakers - Vol 1, London which purports to be the new re-work of London Gunmakers. We will see. It only costs $100, whereas London Gunmakers is $350.

Now, I have a question to ask of you: You said you are familiar with the Woodward "Automatic" action. Can you tell me some of what you know? I have seen only MacIntosh's cryptic reference to the Woodward action in his Best Guns. A Google search turns up nothing.

Best regards, and a very merry Christmas to you,
CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NE450No2
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22525 - 22/12/04 05:51 PM

CaptCurl
You Sir, have a very fine double rifle. How does she shoot and what loads are you using. Do you use .408 or .411 bullets?
Since I am a hunter with double rifles and not a collector, your rifle would be worth much more to me with the 400 Nitro bbls.
How much does she weigh now?
I would recontact Purdey adn have them check their repair records from 1925 to 1955 to see if they can find any info on the rebarreling.


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webley
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22530 - 22/12/04 07:31 PM

Regarding the Woodward 'automatic' action:

I think there was a good article about this action in an issue of the 'Double Gun Journal'.

Regards
Webley


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: webley]
      #22534 - 23/12/04 12:13 AM

Webley, NE450#2, and All,

I have been told that there was an article on the Automatic in DGJ. Unfortunately, it is in an issue that pre-dates my subscription. A friend told me it is in Vol. 4, #2.

The Woodward weighs precisely 8.44 pounds on my digital scales. That translates to 8 lbs, 7.04 oz., the exact original weight. I think it will be a dandy to carry in the field. The recoil is not too bad, either.

It seems to be very accurate. I have only shot it in one session - six rounds only. Shooting experiments were interrupted by hunting season. Will learn more as time goes on. My targets and loading information are not with me now, so can't report specifics. I got the load straight out of Graeme Wright's book. The bores require .411 bullets. Interestingly, it has what has been referred to as "ratchet" rifling.

More later,

CptCurl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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400NitroExpress
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22541 - 23/12/04 03:55 AM

CptCurl:

I have a copy of that volume of DGJ. I'll have to find it. Since you have a Woodward "Automatic", you should have a copy of that issue. I'll put it in the mail to you.

IIRC, there were three Woodward "Automatic" rifles photographed for that article, a .400 BPE, a Nitro .303, and one other that I can't recall, it may have been a .450 BPE. I remember that the .303, being an original nitro-proof rifle, was noticeably heavier built than the .400 BPE was. Yours has got to be the lightest full nitro .450/.400 double that I've heard of.
------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #22545 - 23/12/04 06:59 AM

400NE,

That's most generous of you. I would love to have that article from DGJ.

In my experience, .303 DR's are generally made heavy. I understand it has something to do with a high amount of back thrust associated with the design of that cartridge. I'm no engineer, though. Maybe somebody else can shed some light on that.

I agree, my .400NE is truly petite. It carries like a walking stick and balances perfectly. But it's not as cute as my A. Francotte 9x57R SLE at just under 7#, 6oz.! That's as cute as they come.

What part of the Lone Star State do you call home? I was out near Flomot last fall hunting quail. What a grand time we had! You are lucky. They have about run the upland game birds out of the east.

Best regards,
CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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470Rigby
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22556 - 23/12/04 02:38 PM

Cpt Crl
In reply to:

the Woodward "Automatic" action. Can you tell me some of what you know?




The article by Donald Tate the Summer 1993 issue if DJG is pretty comprehensive, so there is little point in trying to precis it here. If I get a chance to scan the article, I will post it here!

Meanwhile, here is a contemporary advertisement from "Modern Sportsman's Gun & Rifle" by J.H. Walshe ("Stonehenge") published in 1882, that decribes the attributes of the action;



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22558 - 23/12/04 03:45 PM

470Rigby,

That is one great ad. Thanks.

Having studied my rifle I can anticipate what the DGJ article will say, but still I look forward to reading it. The "info" I put on my website was strictly from my study of my rifle.

I wonder how many Automatics were made. Do you know if they were made in shotguns? Mine is #625 on the patent.

It was obvious to me that this action was made with safety in mind. The ad brings that point home. Those who decry automatic safeties would not like this action.

Again, thanks,

RBS,III
"CptCurl"



--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22559 - 23/12/04 03:54 PM

To all,

One question I have is the design behind the roller bearing on the front of the Purdey bolt. I have never seen anything like this on any double rifle. I can imagine it makes the rifle open and close much smoother. Does anybody know any specifics about this? Does anybody know of any other maker that did such a thing?

As always,
Curl


--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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470Rigby
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22566 - 23/12/04 05:19 PM

CptCrl

In reply to:

Do you know if they were made in shotguns?




The British gunmakers probably made 1000 shotguns for every double rifle they made. I doubt that Woodward's ratio would be much different.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22587 - 24/12/04 01:40 AM

470Rigby,

They must not have made very many of the Automatics. The ad you posted is from 1882 and states that the design is 6 years old. I take that to imply that the patent date was in or around 1876. As I recall, the British patents were good for 14 years. Ergo my rifle would be at or near the end of the patent. It was only the 625th use of the patent.

I probably just put my foot in my mouth with this analysis. 400NE, what guidance can you give?

Best to all,
CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (24/12/04 01:48 AM)


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22591 - 24/12/04 04:47 AM

CptCurl
Beautiful rifle.

Wouldn't it be great if Purdey, who own Woodward now bring the designs and rifles back?

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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