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NitroXAdministrator
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Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool?
      #222509 - 29/12/12 06:43 PM

Just asking this question out of interest and see what people do.

When checking your rifle's regulation and groups from each barrel, how long do you wait before firing the third and fourth shots, and then the fifth and sixth shots?

Assuming four or six rounds are fired to test it out.

ie your shoot your left barrel and then your right barrel (or your lower and then upper barrel in an U/O). You shoot these two barrel fairly quickly, leaving a few seconds gap before the second barrel.

You want to now shoot a third and fourth round, and perhaps and fifth and sixth round. How long do you wait between each two shots? Do you let the barrel cool off substantially? Or not? Also do you shoot the first two rounds from clean or dirty barrels?


Just interested. Please explain the reasons you do it particular way.

Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: NitroX]
      #222511 - 29/12/12 06:51 PM

What I personally do. Not saying it is right or wrong. So interested in what others do.

When testing rounds in a double rifle, building up new reload formulas, or just trying it out to see if it is regulating, etc.


I fire the first two rounds. In the past used to load one barrel at a time. Often would walk out to the target to mark the impact before shooting the second barrel. I can do this as it is a private home range. And then walk out to mark the second shot. This probably means substantial time between each shot. Though sometimes I would shoot both shots before going out to mark the impacts.

Now I think this was wrong. I should always shoot both barrels soon after each other. Then walk out to mark the targets etc and let the barrels cool during the walk before new twin shots. I need a spotting scope to visually mark the right and left impacts though which I do not currently possess.


***

Tell us what you do and the reasons why? Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Bonde
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: NitroX]
      #222513 - 29/12/12 07:17 PM

I've been testing a fair bit with my 9,3x74R. The .470 already had a Good handload when I bought it.

I usually have two targets close to each other - fire right barrel on the right target and left barrel on the left target. Short time between shots, just the time I need to put in a Good next shot.

Then I usually shoot some other rifle to let it cool off. The way I see it the DR is for two Quick shots. If you need no 3-4-5-6 it is probably at very short range and you're in a hurry? I reckon it doesn't matter so much then. If it's on the spot on the two first shots, they're usually not so much off on the other shots in practical terms.

Anyway, pistoltargets with 4" bulls is what I use at 50-75m range. They aren't wider apart than I can shoot over the Chrony at the same time.

Put one target on top of the other and mark through the hole with a pen - a fine printed target! Do it again for 3+4 and 5+6.

That way I can measure the precision of each barrel essy without too much fuss.

--------------------
------------------------------------------------------
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill

Edited by bonde (29/12/12 07:19 PM)


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gungadoug
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: Bonde]
      #222521 - 30/12/12 01:41 AM

Well, I have used 2 targets, to avoid the time spent in looking thru the spotting scope to locate the first of the two. I really think this may be unnecessary, though, as that time taken is minimal,but I do try to get them both off as soon as I can acquire a new sight picture. As far as the time between first 2 and second, etc, I have tried a couple of ways. First, let 'em cool completely. Second, go ahead and let the next shots off, just giving enough time for the barrels to reach the same temp, checking to verify they aren't hotter than a warm day hunting. I can't tell any difference in accuracy! Course, maybe that's because I can't hit anything anyway! Now, keep in mind I'm not shooting the really big nitros- 9.3 and 577-500#2 are the biggest, and that surely can make a difference.
My 2 cents, Doug

Edited by gungadoug (30/12/12 01:47 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: gungadoug]
      #222523 - 30/12/12 02:36 AM

Simple and good idea for a target as mentioned. Use a couple of targets for each two shots. Perhaps even a page of six targets for each three groups of two shots. Easy then to see where each hits. As mentioned a composite of all six could easily be created afterwards.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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tinker
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: NitroX]
      #222524 - 30/12/12 03:13 AM

Two targets is a great way to go.
Place them at whatever distance you want to shoot, right-left as quick as you'd need on game and that can be as quickly as you can regain sight picture.

No good reason to shoot an accurate double rifle at *only* very close range,  and it's good to shoot (for record) both barrels on paper at all ranges you'd shoot.

200 yard shots around here are not uncommon at all, more so they're the typical minimum on most game-animal size targets of opportunity.

For the 200yd targets I'd just run one pair R/L and call it done.
A super quick second shot from a light recoiling and accurate ~30cal double can be very useful.

On the issue of clean VS fouled barrels, that will depend on how the rifle shoots - does it make a difference with that rifle?  If so, then I'll test with fouled barrels - as I'd then also hunt with fouled barrels.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_S
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: tinker]
      #222528 - 30/12/12 05:24 AM

With the double barreled smokepole, I find I can shoot a quick left and right, or shoot the right, then reload it and shoot again- centre hits at 50yards. If I load and shoot only the left in the same manner, I get centre hits at 50yards, no change. Increasing the charge 10gr. makes it shoot parallel - whether shot quickly or slowly.

Perhaps this is only 'normal' for a muzzleloading double rifle shooting round balls? Perhaps it's only normal for my ML rifle? 'm more than happy it seems this 'stable'.I

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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tinker
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #222532 - 30/12/12 06:21 AM

Daryl-

Your 58 is barreled somewhat heavy, as are most of my double rifles.
I've seen similar stability with mine, with the exception of my very light and long-barreled 8x60 BLE which was a bit finicky in many respects.
The stout barrels of the BPE rifles (similar to your 58) in my experience seem relatively stable.

I should get my WR 16bore out and check the 200yd leaf some time soon...





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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eagle27
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: tinker]
      #222539 - 30/12/12 07:59 AM

John
Can I ask, when you say "checking your rifles regulation and grouping" do you mean when working up loads or just shooting the gun on target with factory ammo or reloads that have already been derived from pressure and 'on POI' spec.

When observing some of the videos posted the field use of a double can vary considerably to what maybe achieved on the range. Some shots taken on animals are just a single round, others a 1-2 and others a 1-2 reload 3-4 and even sometimes a 5-6 or a variation of these combinations (e.g. 1-2, 3, 4, 5-6 often with right barrel firing the 3rd and 4th and 5th shot after reloading the gun over a short period of time).

In other words I'm guessing that despite what might be practice on the range to cool between shots, in the field all this can go out the window and be meaningless in terms of 'patterning' of a double gun. Perhaps to get a better handle on the potential changes to POI with a double, combinations of shots as I have outlined above would be a better indicator for use in the field, if the POI indeed changes that much to make a difference for close in shooting?

Generally with a bolt gun I have found it is advantageous to shoot at least a mag full fairly quickly to duplicate possible field conditions as this will show up where bedding or floating the barrel is needed if the POI starts to wander or string. Unfortunately if a double does this there is probably not much that can be done about it other than just being aware and maybe compensating for a change in POI.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: eagle27]
      #222555 - 30/12/12 12:21 PM

eagle22,

"factory ammo" - what is that?

"POI spec" - where do you get these, they would be useful?

Sorry only teasing, never had "specs" or factory ammo for any of my doubles.

Regarding bolt actions, completely different situation for working up loads from a rifle with more than a single barrel.

The testing I am talking about is:
1. First use of a DR, building up loads which are useful for the game being hunted and perform in the rifle accuracy wise and regulation wise.
2. Same as above, except for an adjustable barrel rifle, actually regulating the barrels using the movable wedges, screws.

Shooting from a hot barrel, yes, obviously when the above is done, it is good to know how subsequent bullets land.

For practice I don't shoot at little squares, I shoot at game targets or actual fur or hide on the hoof. Or something else fun.

With my Jeffery, as a couple of posts have mentioned, its bulk, weight, and hefty amount of steel, I think is more forgiving in doing all sorts of things. But want to refine the loads now that the triggers have been improved.


***


BTW when I ask these questions as the host of NE, the answers and questions are not just for my benefit but also for other members and visitors doing their own thing and perhaps also asking similar questions.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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eagle27
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: NitroX]
      #222566 - 30/12/12 01:35 PM

Thanks for reply and I do realise that many of your posts are starting subjects to bring in other Q&A.

By specs I was meaning whatever parameters one has set for their gun or perhaps what the original regulation target may have been, if there was one.

I did notice when at the old shooting range in Ferlach, as a guest with Scheiring gunmakers, that there were blowers set up over the gun racks which would cool barrels, when stacked with their actions open. Much of the shooting I saw on the day was regulating and working up loads for new guns being produced by the many gunsmiths in this famous little Austrian town. Our visit was to pick up and try out a new 20G/7x65R gun that my German friend had made, specially regulated for 20G Brenneke slugs. We visited other gunsmiths while there and saw some magnificent lock work and engraving on double rifles and the like.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: eagle27]
      #222569 - 30/12/12 01:44 PM

Quote:

By specs I was meaning whatever parameters one has set for their gun or perhaps what the original regulation target may have been, if there was one.




Yes I was being flippant. I wish I had some nice new rifle, where the gunmaker making it is still alive, or the data re making it was with the rifles. Alas not so far.

Good point regarding the cooling racks. Some pics somewhere on them. I know I have some from one or more of the gunmaker visits too.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Checking groups from your double rifle - how long to cool? [Re: NitroX]
      #222570 - 30/12/12 01:48 PM



At a BASA shoot.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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