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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
300 Blackout vs 5.56....
      #217575 - 04/10/12 07:50 AM

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/10/03/m4-debate-can-the-300-blackout-really-replace-the-5-56/#

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: Ripp]
      #217686 - 06/10/12 08:47 AM

G'Day Fella's,

I really think a lot of people need to get over the fact that the Soviet(?....German) M43/7.62x39 cartridge, is probably an even better option!
I have done a bit of research and testing of both Sub and Super-Sonic handloaded ammo in my own 7.62x39 Bolt Action rifle and as far as I can see (so far), it really is a No-Brainer!!!

Doh!
Homer

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"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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tward1604
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Reged: 14/07/10
Posts: 51
Loc: texas
Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: Homer]
      #219174 - 07/11/12 02:14 AM

I can tell you with my 300 blackout pigs don't like to live after they've had a 110 barnes bullet thru the lungs. As far as ballistics the blackout with the factory supersonic loads it is supposed to have a small edge over the 7.62x39 because the cartridge design is more efficient blah blah blah. The reason it has taken the market by storm is that it takes the power of the AK47 and combines it with the accuracy and reliability of the AR15 platform, not that the AK47 isn't reliable. The reliability that people are comparing is the 5.56x45 in the AR15 and the 7.62x39 in the AR15 platform, and the 7.62x39 because of its angled sides it doesn't function very well in the AR15 platform and magazines. Thats where the 300BLK comes in to fill that gap of power in a reliable AR15 package.

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SGT
USMC


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
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Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: tward1604]
      #219176 - 07/11/12 02:22 AM

I'd rather have one of the new 6.5's or 6.8, personally.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tward1604
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Reged: 14/07/10
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Loc: texas
Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: DarylS]
      #219184 - 07/11/12 03:40 AM

the 6.5 yes but i just can't find the anything to like the 6.8

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VonGruff
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Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: tward1604]
      #219203 - 07/11/12 06:10 AM

The 6.5 Grendel is head and shoulders ahead of all the small cased cartridges when it gets past up close and starts to be way out there. The Grendel forums ( http://www.65grendel.com/forum/ )have hunt reports with shots on antelope etc out to past where the other options mentioned above would reach with the same killing authority. Inside 350yds there are plenty of small cased options but past there the Grendel really starts to show is balistic advantage. Hornady in particular has introduced bullets (and ammo) specifically for the Grendel and is about to release a special 123gn sst as well. With the new Nosler offering there is even more options in very good to excellent hunting bullets. Of course target bullets are in abundance.

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Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (07/11/12 06:16 AM)


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tward1604
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Reged: 14/07/10
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Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: VonGruff]
      #219214 - 07/11/12 07:50 AM

i agree the grendel is probably the best cartridge you can put into the AR platform. but i already heve my 300BLK and love it one day a grendel may be in order

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SGT
USMC


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szihn
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Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: tward1604]
      #219478 - 12/11/12 02:16 AM

Well guys, a 7.63X39 in an AR is about the same.

The "Blackout is standard with a 1-8 twist and the 7.62X39 is standard in a 1-10 twist, so for heavy sub-sonic bullets the blackout would win, but you can put a 1-18 twist .311 barrel in an AR easily and then you'd have all the same abilities of the blackout with the added benefit of inexpensive ammo.

The Black-out is really the same as the 300 Fireball and the 300 Whisper from all practical standpoints. I have made several of them in the years past. I was impressed with them, but not enough to make one for myself.

If I wanted that combination I would probably just re-barrel an AK-47 with a heavier barrel in 1-8 twist and call it good.

The AK can be made to shoot very well with a good quality heavy barrel. The idea that it has "too much moving mass" to be accurate is simply not true. It has a lot less "moving mass" than an M-1 Garand. M-1s can be very accurate.

Also we need to look at the mission statement of a 30 cal 200-220 grain bullet at 1100 FPS. What is that?
What's that for?

If we are honest we'll find that the idea of a sub-MOA sub-sonic 30 cal heavy bullet is not any more useful than a 2-MOA sub-sonic 30 cal heavy bullet.

We are not shooting mice or prairie dogs with that combination are we?
We are shooting bigger heavier targets!
And all would be fairly close. Right?

All would be within the ability of a bullet moving at sub-sonic velocity which means that range has to be known to within about 15 yards.

If you had a 1/2 MOA gun and you misjudged your range by only 5 yards you would be about 1-1.5 inches off the mark anyway with a 220 grain bullet at 1000 fps striking velocity.

So having .5 MOA accuracy is of no advantage to 1.5 MOA in this combination.

Again I point out that a good AK with a good barrel with do 1.5 MOA, and still give you a cheaper rifle with cheaper ammo. Put a quad rail on it and mount a 4X Scout scope and you have all the capabilities of the AR within that mission statement.

I love the AR. So I am not bashing it here.
But I also would choose the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel before the blackout. (Or Fireball or Whisper or any other name you want to place on a 30 cal 200-220 grain bullet at 1150 FPS)
It’s just that for shots at 150 yards and less I can see no huge advantage over an AK.
The AR is more “user friendly” in that it locks open on it’s last shot, has a faster mag catch, and an better safety position.
It is more accurate if you have a free float tube installed. That makes a big difference for 300-800 yard shooting. But a sub-sonic 30 is not for 300 yd shooting. Sure! It can be shot at that range.
So can a flintlock rifle.
But neither are really the best choice for such shots.
Again being 100% honest with myself, if I had to choose between a standard 5.56 and ANY tricked out AK or AR in a sub-sonic 30 chambering for shooting anything beyond 150 yards, I’d still just take the 5.56.

Or better yet, I’d go to the 6.8 SPC with a can on it, and beat them both.
But that’s just me
“Your mileage may vary”


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DarylS
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Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: szihn]
      #219482 - 12/11/12 03:33 AM

YUP - says a guy with absolutely NO AR experience, but some experience with ctgs, ranges and sniping of animals. As noted above, it'd have .264 or .277 calibre barrel and be chambered appropriately.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: DarylS]
      #219806 - 19/11/12 11:27 AM

To me the appeal of the Blackout is as a round for use in suppressed weapons. For that purpose one is limited to subsonic velocities so the only gains in performance are made with greater bullet diameter and weight. A 220gr subsonic .30 caliber would fit the purpose within a couple of hundred meters.

Also, within a couple of hundred meters, the 5.56, especially with some of the heavier loads, is quite a formidable weapon and does a decent job penetrating obstacles and body armor. No, it isn't a 7.62 or a 338 Lapua, but neither does it weigh as much. All in all the M16/M4 is an exceptional weapon with the cartridge it was designed to shoot. If one doesn't need to shoot with a suppressor and the range is within 200 meters, the Blackout offers little, if anything, over the 5.56 shooting heavy bullets.

So, to the topic at hand, given only the choice of 300 Blackout vs 5.56 in an AR:

  • If I needed to shoot a suppressed AR I would choose the Blackout.
  • If I wanted to use the rifle for deer/pig type hunting within 200 meters I would choose the Blackout.
  • If I wanted to use the rifle for hunting varmints or for any other use I would choose the 5.56.

Limitations of both the Blackout and the 5.56 begin to become apparent when engaging targets much beyond 200 meters. And it is at these greater distances that the benefits of cartridges like the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC are realized.


Regarding the .300 Blackout vs the 7.62x39. Here is what AAC has to say. Note that one of their goals was to match 7.62x39 ballistics. Also, they explain why the 7.62x39 didn't meet their purpose.

DESIGN OBJECTIVES
• Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for the AR platform
• Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity
• Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire
• Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62x39 ballistics
• Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles
• Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package

REASONS 7.62x39 wAS NOT CONSIDERED
Extreme cartridge taper
• Reduces reliability of feeding in AR Magazines
• Reduces Magazine capacity
• Cartridge taper induces considerably higher bolt thrust-
exacerbating the AR Bolt's weaknesses
• Requires a larger Bolt Face which reduces Bolt Locking Lug strength-
exacerbating the AR Bolt's weaknesses
Limited projectile selection
• 0.311" diameter not a common option in most modern bullets

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: Grenadier]
      #219837 - 19/11/12 08:27 PM

I found this article on 6.5's --thought it was an interesting comparison of cartridges in the 6.5 ...


Ripp


http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/?p=2

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: Ripp]
      #223623 - 14/01/13 11:58 PM

If I ever do a .300 Blackout it will be one of these:

http://www.libertycans.net/leonidas.html

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 300 Blackout vs 5.56.... [Re: CptCurl]
      #224200 - 24/01/13 03:01 AM

Quote:

If I ever do a .300 Blackout it will be one of these:

http://www.libertycans.net/leonidas.html

Curl



Those are pretty slick looking. I've always been interested in a round like this for the TC Encore, I've always figured that if you are trying to eliminate noise the Encore with a suppressor and a good subsonic round would be hard to beat.


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