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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Bowhunting + Bows, Spears & Knives

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FRJ
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Homer]
      #208072 - 05/05/12 02:40 PM

I hunt with a longbow and never carry a gun for backup of my bow. I do however carry a 1911 for possible human problems. Seems like there are more human problems every year and I'm far more afraid of them than I am of a bear. FRJ

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ruffcountry
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #208182 - 09/05/12 11:28 AM

I like my Glock mod. 20 in 10 mm . The 10 mm provides a very good balance of power , firepower and carry-ability . It is the right pistol for me and the places I hunt because I never leave it behind like I did my .357 blackhawk . I have not hunted where there are big bears but I do hunt where there are black bears , occasional jaguar , and plenty of desparate people . It is a comfort to me even when I have my rifle .

--------------------
Double Rifle Shooters Society


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: ruffcountry]
      #208208 - 10/05/12 12:46 AM

FRJ- the 260gr. Speer HP FN, with Speer's load of 11.2gr. W630 powder delivered 960fps from my 1911 and shot into 2 1/2" at 50 yards. It is a capable bear round, both 2 and 4 legged, I'd expect.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #209459 - 30/05/12 02:41 AM

From two earlier links:

"Brush said he wears a pistol on his walks because bears have chased his dogs in the past.

He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger. He's not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

"Total luck shot," he said.

"It doesn't get any closer. He slid by me on his chin when I shot him," Brush said. "I was backpedaling as fast as I could. I wasn't even aiming. I tripped over my own feet as I pulled the trigger." "

Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html#storylink=cpy

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209460 - 30/05/12 02:42 AM

"Ruth grabbed for the .41-caliber magnum revolver he was carrying in a hip holster and relied on his training and experience as a police officer to save his life. He fired three times, saving three bullets in case his first shots failed.

But the bear dropped and didn't move, ending the furious encounter as swiftly as it started."

http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/wyoming_man_recounts_grizzly_bear_attack/11986/
Wyoming Man Recounts Grizzly Bear Attack
www.flatheadbeacon.com

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John aka NitroX

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Rule303
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209504 - 30/05/12 11:32 AM

Interesting and informative reading.

Never having faced a bear and not likely to. I would, however think that what ever handgun you carry as back up would need to function reliable with hardcast or similar blunt nosed rounds in all conditions.

I am a big believer in a massive flat metplate for slow heavy bullets-fast ones to- as I believe they stop animals quicker than pointed bullets. If it was me I would go with the bigest caliber I could shoot, recover, shoot, with one hand.

Just my lay opinion.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Rule303]
      #209575 - 30/05/12 10:25 PM

How about one of these?



Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun .44 Mag 4" Stainless

Model and calibre as used by Phil Shoemaker. That's got to say something.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209581 - 30/05/12 11:56 PM

I like mine, but it is a standard 4" M29.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #209582 - 31/05/12 12:06 AM

What is the difference, as I have no idea?

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John aka NitroX

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209585 - 31/05/12 12:21 AM

The Mountain gun is stanless and has a lighter weight, thinner barrel. The frame is the same.

I actually perfer the handling and pointability of the heavier profile. A personal choice.

I've worn out 2 M29's since 1973. The first one was fed nothing but 22gr. 2400 and 250gr. Lyman Keith's and only lasted 3 years of quite heavy shooting - yearly average perhaps 2,000rounds after the initial spurt of 2,000rounds per month for 3 months learning to shoot it with accuracy to 300yards.

Heavy loads are/were used sparingly in the next two guns.

If a shotgun with GOOD slugs or round balls isn't available (first choice), then a handgun could work on bears, in the right hands.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #209702 - 01/06/12 01:48 AM

Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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aromakr
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: NitroX]
      #209797 - 02/06/12 12:40 AM

I've been a bowhunter for over 50+ years and although I do carry a 1911 45 super, I believe a hand gun in big bear country is an ego booster more than anything. In a close quarter attack most people would not have enough time to draw and shoot let alone hit anything, and I carry a 1911 daily and shoot all the time. Bears are quick and incounters usually happen in close quarters. I too think a large metplate has better stopping power than pointed bullets and carry a 230 gr flat point bullets loaded by "Buffalo Bore" that are fantastic, but sure hope I never have to use them on a big bear at any time.
Bob


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: aromakr]
      #254361 - 30/09/14 10:56 PM

Quote:

I've been a bowhunter for over 50+ years and although I do carry a 1911 45 super, I believe a hand gun in big bear country is an ego booster more than anything. In a close quarter attack most people would not have enough time to draw and shoot let alone hit anything, and I carry a 1911 daily and shoot all the time. Bears are quick and incounters usually happen in close quarters. I too think a large metplate has better stopping power than pointed bullets and carry a 230 gr flat point bullets loaded by "Buffalo Bore" that are fantastic, but sure hope I never have to use them on a big bear at any time.
Bob




+1
Agree 100% with the above..have numerous friends who have had close encounters with griz..said at 50 yards..they didn't even have time to clear leather by the time he was on them...but still can be drawn in the scuffle and fired..or you can play dead..your choice..

I have been bluffed charged several times by blacks..the move really really fast..had a wounded black come at me once..shot by my step-son..he was NOT a happy camper..same thing..amazed how fast he covered ground..luckily I had a 280AI rifle in my hands to stop him..

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254385 - 01/10/14 07:48 AM

12 bore loaded to about 1,600fps with 500gr. round balls cast of WW metal is my choice for bear protection. Each to his own as I cannot legally pack my M29 or 4 5/8's BlackHawk. If I could legally pack a handgun, either of those or would be on my hip whenever I was in the bush.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254386 - 01/10/14 07:54 AM

I was involved in a fight with a small bear a few years ago as mentioned earlier. The bear ended up at my ankles. My .44 loads acted like FMJ's and went quite unnoticed by the bear other than the bear swatting at one that ranged its entire length, that is, until it died, living as it did plenty long enough it could have done real damage had the dogs not confused the issue for it. All shots lethal, none hitting CNS. It was a mess. As said earlier and as others have mentioned, a handgun is better than nothing but it is no guarantor of safety. With truly big bear, any common service caliber up to the .44 Mag is not going to instill much confidence for me, the service caliber none at all and .44 not much at all.

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Jim_C
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #254408 - 01/10/14 05:13 PM

I've taken a total of one bear with a handgun, and that wasn't a hunting-type situation so I'm not sure if it counts. Mr. Bear caught 8 rounds of a cast-bullet .45acp handload equivalent to hardball. First bullet entered just below the sternum, the rest walked up the front. Several shots were through-and-through the sternum, one broke a shoulder, one went through the neck and ended up in the back of the skull. I considered it adequate as it took care of the bear, but after that trip I went to a 230 TC at about 1,000 fps (and never saw another bear while carrying the pistol).

That said, if I was going to carry a handgun while bowhunting, in case of bears, I'd probably choose a 4" Model 29.


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254424 - 01/10/14 10:36 PM

Quote:

FRJ- the 260gr. Speer HP FN, with Speer's load of 11.2gr. W630 powder delivered 960fps from my 1911 and shot into 2 1/2" at 50 yards. It is a capable bear round, both 2 and 4 legged, I'd expect.




Thx for that load Daryl..have to give it a try this winter after hunting season and have a bit more time for reloading.

Agree with your earlier comments as well regarding the shotgun and handgun bear protection..when I was going after Big Horn sheep along the border of YNP several years back, I was warned of a boar raising havoc in the area..chasing ranch hands on 4 wheelers, etc..SO, I packed my mossberg model 500 shorten barrel with buckshot and slugs..

Also agree with the comment of feeling a need for a handgun much more for the 2 legged vermin that the bears, especially in NP in other states..hiked for a week in Yosemite couple years ago..LOTS of strange folks hanging around that area..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Jim_C]
      #254439 - 02/10/14 02:10 AM

Quote:

I've taken a total of one bear with a handgun, and that wasn't a hunting-type situation so I'm not sure if it counts. Mr. Bear caught 8 rounds of a cast-bullet .45acp handload equivalent to hardball. First bullet entered just below the sternum, the rest walked up the front. Several shots were through-and-through the sternum, one broke a shoulder, one went through the neck and ended up in the back of the skull. I considered it adequate as it took care of the bear, but after that trip I went to a 230 TC at about 1,000 fps (and never saw another bear while carrying the pistol).

That said, if I was going to carry a handgun while bowhunting, in case of bears, I'd probably choose a 4" Model 29.




This is very much like my experience.

After 2 hours of hard running thru the mountains, took my first shot at 40 yards was broadside thru the lungs. Critter dropped like Clinton's pants at a Mary Kay Convention. We were all relieved. Then a dog jumped on the bear and the bear blew up, grabbing the dog and rolled off the bank. I ran after it and shot it again as it ran from me about 15 yards. Shot hit its hip and we found that bullet under the hide on the off shoulder. Bear stopped, swatted the hip and spun around and came back at me. I fired again, hitting it a little too far back and a dog lunged into the bear's chest and tackled the bear. Down on the ground I ran up, shove the revolver into its chest and fired I thought twice. My son later told me he heard what sounded like a burst from our Stemple submachine gun. I stepped back then the bear came on to at my feet and I stooped down to put the last round into its head and ClickClickClick!!!.

Darn...

Reached fr some rounds from my belt when my then 14-year-old son dove over my shoulder and more or less "bayonetted" the thing with one round of 7x57R from his Baikal combo gun.

Later I tested the bullets and whatcha know they performed in my jugs exactly as the recovered bullet looked. No expansion. Inside the bear were holes but no significant indication of severe trauma as you would get with opening bullets. And this was a small bear.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254440 - 02/10/14 02:13 AM

Buckshot is effective against black bears - small black bear at close range. Solid projectiles ONLY for grizzly and most larger black bears. One of my staff shot a black bear 4 times with buckshot at quite close range and that bear was REALLY ticked off. It took another member walking up alongside the bear and planing a load of 00 in the side of it's head to kill it. The body shots sort of stopped the bear, but he was far from dead. I do not trust buckshot - slugs or round balls.

Ed Huble here has some 12 bore wads that nicely hold 2, 58 cal. round balls. I am in the experimentation mode on those, but that "buck" shot will work - guaranteed. Should be able to get them moving 1,500fps with Longshot, Blue Dot or Steel powders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254451 - 02/10/14 05:09 AM

Quote:

Buckshot is effective against black bears - small black bear at close range. Solid projectiles ONLY for grizzly and most larger black bears. One of my staff shot a black bear 4 times with buckshot at quite close range and that bear was REALLY ticked off. It took another member walking up alongside the bear and planing a load of 00 in the side of it's head to kill it. The body shots sort of stopped the bear, but he was far from dead. I do not trust buckshot - slugs or round balls.

Ed Huble here has some 12 bore wads that nicely hold 2, 58 cal. round balls. I am in the experimentation mode on those, but that "buck" shot will work - guaranteed. Should be able to get them moving 1,500fps with Longshot, Blue Dot or Steel powders.




I wouldn't personally use buckshot for anything I wanted to stop unless it was going to be shot at such close range that a slug would be no disadvantage. As soon as the shot starts to spread so much it improves hitting, it loses alot of penetration. I've had a number of failures of buck on dogs and have no interest in the stuff overall.

12 bore roundball?

Different story.

Daryl, your double 58 reminds me of the African I hunted with in Katanga Shaba province who had a homemade front loader...bolt action, too, long before the Knight Modern Muzzle loaders!!! and he used 2 .44 cal pistol bullets borroed from my friend who owned a Ruger Old Army. They were not accurate in that contraption but I suppose he worried the local impala and monkey population some.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Ripp
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #254457 - 02/10/14 06:17 AM

Have to say a lot of this surprises me a bit in that I read an article a couple years back about Alaska and at that time the most common weapon and caliber used on a unexpected bear attack was a .357 Magnum handgun..which also really surprised me. If I was lucky enough to be trouncing around the woods in AK, the 357 mag would not be my weapon of choice..

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254474 - 02/10/14 12:47 PM

My statement might read: I do not trust buckshot, slugs or round balls. What I meant was I do not trust buckshot on bears, only use slugs or round balls.

Please note as well the solid round ball, especially if hardened or cast from hard lead, is much more effective on any game with tremendously improved penetration over any of the Foster (hollow based) Slugs.

My long time friend and hunting buddy here, could not keep .735" round balls (about 580gr.) inside a moose. He used them for many years in his 11 bore rifle, loading between 175gr. and 200gr. of powder. The balls were not hardened, but were cast from the old crimp-on wheel weights, which run about 12-13 brinel here.

I'd not feel especially well armed with only a .357 mag. as backup when in the bush. Even if one went WAY overboard from today's squib loads, to the original-style stuff with 158gr. running 1,500fps, I'd still prefer my .44 mag with 275gr. SWC (Ohaus mould) at 1,250fps or 300gr. TC's at 1,150fps. Even then, a 12 bore appropriately loaded, would be better - maybe not as conveniently carried, but a much better show stopper.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: DarylS]
      #254476 - 02/10/14 02:28 PM

You were clear Daryl. I might not have been. I agree with you about the buck and slug/round ball thing, especially the round balls. I'd think twice about smaller ga than 12 and wouldn't trust Foster style slugs as I have seen some really poor penetration with them in some media but I would think a 12 bore RB at max velocity from a light semiauto would make for an excellent bear protection gun. That it would work well for grouse and other birds and snowshoes and everything else a smoothbore is good for is a real plus, too.

What velocities have you obtained with RB's in 12 bore guns?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: 9.3x57]
      #254506 - 03/10/14 02:01 AM

Still playing - have access to a roll crimping die (really need to buy my own) so I can put up some decent loads that will give some consistency.

Using AA Steel (and/or Longshot), I am quite sure of getting upwards of 1,800fps to 1,900fps with a .720" ball of around 550gr. weight in my Mossberg model 835 24" bl'd rifle. Blue dot should get upwards of 1,600fps.

Note that the round ball factory 7 dram (191gr.BP)12 bore load mentioned in WW Greener's book ran 1,584fps, ball weight given as 599gr.-perhaps a Very shot conical.- pg.689.

I have .662" (16 bore), .675"(<15 bore), 684"(<14 bore), .705" (<13 bore), .715"(>13 bore), .724"(<12 bore), .735"(>12 bore) and .740"(<11 bore) moulds.

My Mossy's groove depth is .724", so I'll use the .724" mold at around 550gr. in WW metal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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dracb
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Re: back up pistol for bears [Re: Ripp]
      #254536 - 03/10/14 09:06 PM

Ripp

Over a 45 year career much of which was spent in remote campsites located from Alaska to Mexico (and way beyond) I have seen a number of bears killed with a variety of handgun and rifle calibers.Back in the 1960's I was instructing at geology field courses based out of tent camps in Montana and camping solo in the Crazy mountains and the Beartooths doing research.I thought I needed a sidearm to defend from bears and other predators so I bought one of the then new Ruger 41 magnums which started my quest for the perfect bear gun.

When my children were young they were often in camp and I have encouraged my young geologists to bring their families to camp also. As a partial consequence of children and wives in camp we had little patience for a bear in or around the camp. Even though every effort was made to keep a clean camp and to burn garbage every day it was unfortunately not that unusual for a bear to start raiding the cook shack or storage tent. Back in the 60's there was one site near a park that was particularly bad for bears. The park rangers would trap problem bears and transport them out to the bush road that led to our camp for release. Even though their release site was 10 miles or so from the camp their problems commonly became ours. A bear in camp was typically chased out a couple of times and if it persisted in returning or refused to be chased out they were shot by who ever was in camp at the time with whatever they were carrying at the time. A 357 will indeed kill a big black bear as will a 41 magnum or 44 magnum or the 45 super I carried in latter years. As long as the bear is not agitated and adrenalized, pistol calibers seem to work moderately well given good shot placement. Experience suggests that if the bear does not go down with the first shot it will probably take several shots and the shooter will probably wind up hunting for it wishing he had something much larger and more effective in his hands. I can only remember two bears that offered to attack people in camp. One was a grizzly on a dead run that was dropped as if struck by lightening by a 44 magnum fired from a model 94. I was amazed while the shooter apparently thought it was no big deal. The other was a black that had just ripped the plywood side off of the food storage shed and objected to being chased out of camp. It was shot twice through the front of the chest with a 450/400 3 inch using vintage 400 grain Kynock soft points. No substantial bones were broken and it did not initially drop as if hit by lightening or anything else, teaching me that one can feel very small and foolish for tempting fate as one stands there with an empty rifle in one's hands.
More ammunition capacity is muuuuuuch better.

Before I started spending much time in bear country I had an opportunity to interview two people that had been mauled. Both told me that they would not have had time to defend themselves if they had a gun in their hands. In one case I was told the first time he knew a bear was there was when it bit him. The other related that he was walking up a creek in the early morning,stepped around a bend in the trail and was swatted by the bear. As I recall the bear after biting and cuffing him about buried him. It kept returning to check on him during the day. He was finally rescued by the helicopter pilot that was to pick him up at the end of the work day. It was partly on the basis of their comments that I started carrying the 45 super. I figured if I really had to use a pistol in extremis I would need that magic golden BB of legend to stop a mad bear. I was more likely to find that golden BB with a series of double taps from a pistol that I shot in IPSC competitions and that I could also shot well with my weak arm. It seems the hands and arms get a bit gnawed on while the bear is having his way with you.

The short summary is that a pistol is a distant and unreliable second choice to a powerful, rapid firing, multi-shot shoulder weapon for up close bear work. I kept a 450 31/4 inch or 450/400 3 DR for a camp gun for a while until finding two shots might not always be enough. Now I use a pump 12 bore with hardened round balls as bear medicine when given the choice. The trouble is it is hard to work carrying the damned thing and if it is on a sling over the shoulder it is slow to get into action. I few years back I bought some 870's from a mining company that was shutting down. They had issued them to their field personnel along with a scabbard that attached to their packs so they could draw it over their shoulder. The problem with the bigger and more powerful pistols than the 44 magnum is that they are heavy and after a short time one tends to find excuses to not carry it. The mountain pistol in 44mag or similar in 41mag is in my opinion a reasonable compromise. Unfortunately as a consequence or where I now live I no longer enjoy the privilege of carrying a sidearm in the jurisdictions where I work most of the time.


According to a Bear Smart course instructor I hired a couple of years ago the new bear sprays are reportedly more effective than handguns at stopping bear attacks.

--------------------
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."


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