Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Build--470 NE

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

Pages: 1
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Build--470 NE
      #206535 - 05/04/12 05:08 AM

I am looking for help--ideas--opinions--feedback. First let me say that I have never owned a double rifle. Just recently I am finding that I can probably afford to do this, so I am proceeding under the assumption that it can be done, and that I can do it. I am a gunsmith and an engraver so I believe that I can build this gun to fit me and make it look the way I want it to. I have been working in the trade for 24 years and have access to a machine shop and of course I have all of the necessary hand tools. My main reasons for this build are two-fold. First and foremost I WANT a double rifle. And second, I want the pleasure of building it. Given that I know little about double guns, here are a couple of easy questions for you guys (I hope)

I am leaning toward a 470 NE. I think it is plenty of medicine for my african plans, and the breech face thrust will be less than the 500, 577, 600, etc.(At least I think so--I haven't checked pressures on current factory ammunition yet....) So, given the 470 NE, what would you say that a preferred barrel length would be for a double?? I currently own two double underlug, greener crossbolt actions, so will probably use one of them for this project (Hmm--maybe??) Neither one of these have ejectors, so it will be extractors only or change to a different action. What do you think?? An OLD gunsmith friend of mine mentioned that he had seen doubles with barrels that had rifling twists in opposite directions (one RH and one LH). I understand the reasons why....but at the short ranges that these guns are used I can't see that it would make much difference. As long as I am ordering barrels I guess I could order them that way...... What about barrel diameters at the muzzle?? Any thoughts??

Listen guys, I know what some of the manufacturers are doing with these questions. I am not going to just accept what they are doing as gospel. I know there are lots of ways to arrive at a destination. I am really interested in your thoughts and ideas here. So, hold forth. I am listening.

Thanks for your help.

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #206592 - 06/04/12 10:41 AM

You are starting down a dark path! This goes deeper than professional trap shooting! Run away, run away! Don't say you weren't warned. Just loading ammunition for these things is whole forum's worth of conflicting data. I can see I haven't swayed you, sooo........ Welcome to the wonderful world of building and shooting double rifles!

You should be able to build a .470 on a good German or other 12 bore. There are a couple of guns out there that do not have a Greener crossbolt or dollshead third fastener that I will use, but a good 12B with double underlugs and a Greener crossbolt is the best, especially for a first build. A .470 is a good choice given it's current popularity. I like .450's (.450-3 1/4" or, even better, .450 #2) because I can get cheap "dirt bank" bullets in that caliber - not as many available for the .470NE. Going bigger than the .470 has weight issues when using a 12B action. You can build a .500 on a 12B action, but weight can be an issue. Anything bigger really needs 10B action.

For a first build, I would recommend using a gun that you can cut the barrels off to make the monoblock. Building a monoblock from scratch and fitting it to the action is a lot of specialized work and should be left to later projects. Extractors/ejectors is not a real issue for a first double, unless you have a strong feeling one way or the other. I have used both and don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. What you have is the best place to start. If you have to go out and buy a gun, then what you can find that meets the requirements for a build, is what you should use.

Don't worry about rh/lh twists on barrels, only rarely seen and absolutely unnecessary. I would not spend a lot of money on the barrels either. Buying "match grade" barrels will only make the project more expensive, will not make the gun shoot any better. I buy the smallest diameter barrel contour that I can get for a any given caliber, and then sometimes have to turn them a bit smaller. No American barrel maker makes a standard contour that is as small as we normally want them. Some will make them on special order, but none standard. 24"-26" for barrel length is standard, with 24"-25" the most common.

You did not mention it, do you have a copy of "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions"? If not, probably should get one. Read that and a lot of your questions will be answered. After that, we can "give you the works" on an "even playing field".

http://bundukipublishing.com/

Should also get copies of "Gun Craft" by Vic Venters, and "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright.


Ellis

Edited by DBLGN (06/04/12 10:54 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DBLGN]
      #206604 - 06/04/12 01:02 PM

I certainly appreciate the response! I want to personally say thank you to Ellis for giving his time to me (and to others) in this forum.

First, I need to say that I have sent an email to your publishing house (are you self-publishing??) about your book. Now that you have mentioned it in your post, I don't really need an answer to my questions!! My order for your book will come tomorrow. The other two books you mentioned I have already purchased along with a third one currently on order with Amazon (can't remember the title right now-??(it must be a "getting old" thing..)) Nothing I have read so far has dissuaded me from starting this build. I have only gently perused Wright's book, but I am well into "Gun Craft". I fully intend to study all of these thoroughly before starting the build.

Thanks for all of the advice. Although I have worked extensively in the trade, as I mentioned I have NO experience with double guns (other than shotguns of course). What I have discovered over the years is that there is a lot of smoke, magic, and mirrors that appears in the quest for answers in gunsmithing. Yes, it is a science, but it is also an art form. An example that comes to mind is the art of producing a leather covered recoil pad....not too scientific, but surely is an artistic endeavor.

Once again thanks for the help, Ellis. I will try to keep this thread active and you can be assured that I will be back for more advice and opinions!

To anyone else who would like to comment, please feel free to do so. I greatly respect the opinions of others who have walked in the footprints that I am about to make.

Please continue......

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #206630 - 06/04/12 11:04 PM

DoubleRifle999,
If you have already decided to use one of the guns you already have, I would tell you to look at the stocks on them first. I would be surprized if most of these older gun stocks would hold up to much shooting of the 470 cartridge,so that means a re-stock job. Which of them might be easier to restock? Next, I'd look to see that both of them are "On Face" and don't need to be re-jointed, that can be a rather daunting job to do before you even get strated on your conversion.Don't even think about converting a gun that doesn't lock up super tight. Look at the breech faces and see if one or both of them have bushed firing pins, if so, that is a positive. I also like vented breech faces but you probably won't find that on either of your actions. Look to see which one of them locks up the tightest, after a good cleaning of both of them, including inside the recesses for the greener crossbolts, that will give you a good indication which one was made best and/or shot the least.

If you like a cheekpiece on your gun you can give extra credit to the gun that already has one, as well as the sling swivels being present. I agree that your barrels should be 24 to 26 inch long, that will give you enough length to burn all your powder but is short enough to be handy to hunt with. If you plan to restock it, do you have a stock duplicator or access to one? If not you may want to start looking around for that service and see what that is going to cost, as well as a good strong stock blank.

Save your original stock to use as a pattern. I regularly build up the originals with auto body putty to get a higher comb or to add a cheekpiece, plus I put some on the wrist area to thicken it up a bit to make it stronger. Then go over that filler with a thin coating of Brownells Acraglass to harden the surface a bit. You can even create or remove some castoff using this method as well as building places up that need a little more strength. A good hint is to leave your pattern stock slightly larger than the finshed stock will be, that will give you a little room to fudge it one way or the other without running out of wood as you fit it to the action. It is much easier to work the last bit down by hand than to slightly over cut the new stock and have to start over again! Don't ask me how I know that!

On most of the conversions I have done, the problem was how to get it as light as possible, but with the 470 you may want to start considering how much you want it to weigh when finished and plan your barrel weights accordingly. I would err on the side of being just a little too heavy before I lightened up the barrels too much. Ask people who have one or have built one for their barrel profile recommendations, weigh all your necessary parts and balance the gun accordingly.
Check all the gun auctions for any 470's and average their weights to get your weight corrected. Good Luck with the new project gun. Bob


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #206646 - 07/04/12 02:47 AM

Thanks for thoughts and ideas Bob. Nothing is cast in stone at this point. I truly haven't decided about the action for the build. Both of the ones that I have appear to be in good shape, but I haven't done a really detailed analysis yet. I may use one of them or maybe not...? I will certainly do as you suggest and examine them carefully before committing one of them to this project. I am continuing to look around for other possibilities as well. I won't make a final decision until I have read Ellis' book and talked to another old time 'smith friend of mine down in South Carolina.

You mentioned the stock work as a potential factor in a decision. Your suggestions about modifications and the use of a "pattern" stock represent valid and current thought. I will say this though---I have a significant amount of experience building stocks from blanks and will undoubtedly build this one as well. I have a quite nice selection of stock wood to pick from. I have been collecting wood for about twenty years. I have enough to last me several life times. I DO have access to a duplicator, but truthfully have never used it. I typically work from a blank off of a ground surface plate for my layouts and centerlines. I use a handheld router and die grinder to remove heavy amounts of material and the rest of it is done with cabinet rasps, chisels, and small grinding tools while working to a template. Your idea about using a "build-up" for a try stock fitting is a good one. I will probably incorporate some version of that into this build. I am not certain about a cheekpiece. I don't want a hard recoiling gun smacking me in the face---and I have always favored a "classic" style of rifle stock. So....??? I realize that small cheekpieces are frequently seen on these guns, so I may be enticed to try one. As far as stock fitting goes, I have been through a fitting done by Orvis a couple of years ago and still have their measurements. It was for a shotgun though----not certain how those measurements would correlate to a double rifle. Actually, thinking about it now, I'm pretty certain that most of those measurements would be of no real value. Shooting a shotgun is SO different from a rifle!

I am getting more anxious to get started on this---I need to take my time and do it right though. Maybe if I can figure it out, I will post a few pics of some of my previous stuff (stocks, engraving, pistol builds, etc...). I am not sure how it works on this forum....I will try to figure it out.

I want to say thanks again to everyone for the good advice and please continue offering your thoughts. I will try to keep this current...

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #206802 - 09/04/12 08:22 AM

I started thinking about how much I have to read and how far I have to go before actually cutting metal for this build. So I thought I would try to post a few pics of some of my engraving and some other things. I will try to do a brief description for each image. Have to apologize a little for the quality of some of the images--My lightbox has disappeared and some dust issues too. Hope someone finds these interesting!

These first six images are engraving stuff.....

Howard

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!

Edited by DoubleRifle999 (09/04/12 08:23 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #206803 - 09/04/12 08:34 AM

Okay--This is a letter opener I built and engraved. Blade is 1060 IIRC. Hardened and drawn back to spring temper. Polished and inlaid with 24 K. gold. Touch-up polish then into hot bluing tank. This accentuated the grain in the steel for an interesting pattern. Coffin handle bolsters are ATS-34 stainless. Scales are ironwood. Engraving is hand drawn then cut with a 105 degree tool--chasing hammer and chisel.







--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!

Edited by CptCurl (11/04/12 10:46 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #206805 - 09/04/12 08:45 AM

At first glance this appears to be a 'pen and ink'. But it's not. Look at the second image. This is an image printed from a hand engraved plate. Image was 'pulled' from a dry copy of an original. Plate is german silver (nickel silver) about 9"x6". Light cuts with an onglette and chasing hammer. Plate was polished then inked with fingerprint ink. Into a hydraulic press at about 20 tons. Result is as you see it.







--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!

Edited by CptCurl (11/04/12 10:46 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #206806 - 09/04/12 08:53 AM

This is the bottom metal from a 375 H&H I built on a Remington magnum action. Not good images--damn missing light box! Cut with 90 degree chisel, onglette and chasing hammer. Polished, hot blue, then partial french grey. Lightly toned.






--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!

Edited by CptCurl (11/04/12 10:47 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #207141 - 16/04/12 05:58 AM

Great news---I received Ellis' book on Saturday. I have started through it (about a third of the way) and it is truly an educational source that all potential double gun builders should read. Nice photography and well thought out and commented. Its a keeper!

Also, have to say that Vic Venters book "Gun Craft" is a very classy tome. It is produced and bound in a manner that is very seldom seen today. Beautiful binding and HEAVY, glossy paper that reminds me of leather bound first editions. Extremely well made and very reasonable in price. The paper on which it is printed is so heavy that I constantly find myself checking to see if I am turning more than one page. It too is a keeper!

Also picked up a copy of "Double Guns and Custom Gunsmithing" by Steven Hughes. I haven't read much of it yet, but I have glanced through it. Some interesting chapter titles and nice photography. Hope I like it as much as the other two.

I have started cleaning up my two possible donor guns as Bob suggested, and will post some pics as soon as I can. Gun #1 is a Simpson Suhl gun and gun #2 is an AYA gun. Both initially appear to be prety much on face and in good to very good condition. I will be able to tell more after cleaning and reassembly.

Thanks again for the ideas and help!---Howard


--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210514 - 09/06/12 05:01 PM

Okay, back to the quest!! I have spent the past four weeks reading completely all of the books I purchased. Vic Venters' Gun Craft; Ellis Brown's Building Double Rifles...; Graeme Wright's Shooting..British Double..; and Steven Hughes' Double Guns..Custom Gunsmithing. I also bought three new ammunition books with good readable text and reliable data (I thought..??). Ammo Ency.-3rd Ed.; Ammo and Ballistics-4th Ed. and Cartridges of the World-12th Ed.. I was completely surprised to see the ammunition books had significant differences when referring to the .470 NE and the .500 NE. I will highlight a couple---On page 400 Cart. of the World shows the rim diam. of the .470 NE at .646 then further back on page 556 it shows it at .655. On the same pages it shows the rim thickness at .035 then later on at .037...???? Ammo and Ballistics 4 shows rim diam. at .655 and rim thickness at .040. Ammo Ency. pretty much agrees with A&B 4. On the .500 NE Cart. of the World shows the rim diam. at .660 on page 400 and again on pg. 558. A&B 4 shows rim diam at .655 and thickness at .040. Ammo Ency. carries their dimensions out four decimal places and they vary a little from the others.....So which of the books is correct?? I am confused.. Since A&B 4 and Ammo Ency. are the closest to each other I will assume that they are the closest to the truth. Just can't imagine that much difference between the books...Have these cartridges changed dimension over the years?? Could older factory cartridges have different dimensions?? I would hate to cut chambers for a rim thickness of .040 only to find that manufacturer X or Y has a rim thickness of .035!! Five thousandths excess headspace could be problematic!!!

If in fact the rim diameters of the .470 and .500 by current specs are the same------Ammo Ency. shows the average max pressure of the .470 NE at 39,200 (PSI) and the .500 NE at 32,000 (PSI)....this would seem to indicate that the breech thrust of the .500 would be significantly..?? less than the .470. Do you find this to be true?? This of course would require you to believe the book specs....I realize that SAAMI and CIP control the specs, but what do the manufacturers do in reality?? Do they load these particular cartridges to those average pressure specs or to a "standard" velocity for a specific projectile. This would indicate the possibility (probability) that the pressures could change by manufacturer depending on powders and projectiles used (which makes sense because I know various manufacturers of other cartridges use different propellants and achieve different ballistic results). So, maybe I have answered my own question, but....In any case, have you found these pressure specs to be at least somewhat reliable??

Lastly, I have inspected the two double guns that I own and find that they are not in as good a shape as I thought (hoped..). I have taken pictures and will post some next time for each of the guns along with some questions..!!

I want to thank everyone for your patience...I admit to being a newbie with double rifles, but I learn fast! Thanks again!

Howard

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210628 - 10/06/12 10:17 PM

Howard,
I'm not sure what is going on with the different measurements of these various cartridge heads but I can make an educated guess. I think that when they wrote up those specs they each had a sample or two to measure and as we all know there can be some substancial differences in brass size between different makers. It also makes a difference how they measured their cases and what they used to do the measuring with. You have to be very consistant with your measuring methods to get even close to the same measurements using the same tool over and over. Many of the older calibers may not have been standardised till recently, and with odd calibers you may still find some variations. The .470's should all be the same, though.
Giving the measurements out to four decimal places is just silly, in my opinion. They are just showing off or trying to convince you that they did a better job than the others, it's largely theoretical and means nothing to the average reloader. Measured out to four places, you would be lucky to find one out of a hundred that measured that exact size.
I have found that given three different brands of 45-70 brass, you are apt to find three different sets of measurement figures. Federal makes theirs thickest in the rim thickness, Winchester is somewhat in the middle, and Remington is the thinnest in rim thickness. There is more variation in 45-70 brass than any other caliber that I have checked to date. With it's generally mild pressures, I don't see it as a big problem though, but I do wish they would start making it in a standard size for all manufacturers.
I cut the chambers so that the gun will just close on the thickest rims, but the 45-70 doesn't have the pressure that the .470 does, so my recommendation is that you buy one brand of brass, chamber your gun accordingly, and stick with it throughout your ammo loading.
I really liked your engraving and that print is really nice as well. I think your choice for a big double is spot on, but unless you intend to go to Africa with it, it may be a bit of overkill. I will be watching for further updates and look forward to seeing more pictures of your work and of this project. You said the two donor guns were not as good as you enitially thought. What sort of problems have you encountered with them? Bob


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210670 - 11/06/12 08:52 AM

Thanks for the response Bob. I guess I am getting a little 'anal' about this whole thing. I know there are standards for the chambers, headspace standards, and standards for the ammunition. I certainly hope that ALL of the manufacturers conform to the modern standards. You are certainly correct about picking and using one brand of brass. That of course is my plan. However, there are many reasons why a person could arrive at a destination and be forced to locally procure some factory ammunition. I can think of several that have already happened to me!! So my concern was that I would be able to purchase ANY available factory ammunition and use it safely should the need arise. I really don't think wanting factory ammunition to be within standard specification is too much to ask. Anyway, the published differences in the books gave me pause--a reason to stop and think. Like I mentioned though, I have NOT at this point verified with SAAMI or CIP what exactly the standards are. I need to do that.!! I have chamber prints from a tooling manufacturer, but unfortunately my set does not include the early British cartridges. Maybe I will try to update them too. In any event the rim thickness was my real concern. A chamber cut for brass with a .040 rim thickness could have REALLY excessive headspace if you happened on a batch of factory ammunition with a rim thickness of .035--plus allowing for manufacturing tolerances..!!! Could be an accident waiting to happen.!!

The second thing about the chamber pressures was sort of a "just thinking..??" subject. If the rim diameters of the .470 and the .500 are indeed the same (as I tend to think they are...??), and the .500 is loaded to lower pressures, then the breech thrust could be significantly less. Perhaps a good reason to look at the .500 instead of the .470. Of course I realize that moving a heavier projectile down the barrel at the same velocity will result in more "shoulder thrust" too.!!

I know that these two are on the 'hefty' side as far as really useful choices--however, the plan is for Africa next year and hopefully several more times after that. I also go to Alaska and BC regularly, so they would work there for the big bears. There is also a hope for a trip to Aussie land for buff at some point. Who knows what **** lurks in the hearts of men?? I know, I know.!! It's the Shadow. The Shadow knows!!

Thanks for the kind words about the engraving...It's not master class, I know. I spent about two years part time in an engraving school back about twenty years ago. I worked as a hand engraver for a couple of years then started teaching engraving at a local college. I actually contacted a firm in Liege about fifteen years ago about moving there for a year to do an understudy. Couldn't afford it. You work on their line and products after passing some basic skills trials. They use you for all of the minor work until you prove yourself, eventually learning enough to work on their finished products. It is just like a regular job, only of course there is NO pay at all. Your 'learning' is the only pay you get. I just couldn't afford to live abroad for a year or more with no income.

Issues with the two potential donor guns: Well, there are several. I am going to post some pictures in the next day or so with comments and some questions. I am sure someone will have something to say...

Howard

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210754 - 12/06/12 10:55 AM

Okay, I have a little time right now so I thought I would attempt to post some of the pics of my two potential donor guns---and invite comments from all. If you have anything to say, please do so. I am not easily offended and welcome all comments....on the pictures, the plans, or the sensibilities of pursuing this effort.

First is gun #1...the Simson Suhl gun:






Note here the top lever is slightly left of center when action is closed....I think this is an indication of bad things to come. I didn't realize it when I first looked at this piece, but after looking a little closer, things started to show up!! (Although I did NOT completely disassemble the action...It wasn't necessary for this evaluation!!)




The sharp eyes among you will properly observe that this is a 16 bore gun.....Yep, another error on my part! Of course I knew it was a 16 when I purchased it (some 20 years ago..) but it is amazing what time will do to one's memory!!




So, here is where we are: Simson Suhl gun; 16 bore (so...not appropriate for a .470 or .500 build); action slightly loose and off face (there is noticeable movement when locked up with the forearm removed---I was able to close the action with a piece of .003 brass shim stock in the standing breech); the gun has obviously been shot and handled a lot before I got it...checkering is worn almost smooth.-------On the positive side, the gun is not in terrible shape appearance wise; the wood is apparently all original and sound...no cracks or bad dings or repairs; no visible metal repair; 100% functional; all matching serial numbers.

So, what is the future hold for this gun?? Should I spend the time to bring it back on face then use it as a donor for a smaller build (like a 45-70 or..??); keep it as a 16 bore shotgun after tightening it up; or get rid of it??? Those are the only options I see right now. I am open to any suggestions----Please hold forth. All ideas welcomed!!!

Next, for your viewing pleasure will be the AYA gun---stay tuned!!

Howard

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!

Edited by CptCurl (12/06/12 11:14 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210756 - 12/06/12 12:40 PM

Once again, the pics of my two potential donor guns. Please don't be shy. If you have anything to say, please do so. I am not easily offended and welcome all comments....on the pictures, the plans, or the sensibilities of pursuing this effort.

Here is gun #2---the AYA gun:





Note here, the top lever on this gun is slightly right of center with the action closed and locked. I took this as a good sign. The action seems tight at this point and in fact takes a little too much effort to pivot the top lever (in my humble opinion..).




We see here that this is indeed a 12 bore gun. I have owned this one for only a few years. I intended to use this gun for a project build---that is why I bought it. Oh, also because I got it for a very good price!!







So, here is where we are: AYA gun; 12 bore (appropriate for a .470 or .500 build according to Ellis' book); action tight and on face; there is no noticeable movement anywhere when locked up with the forearm removed; I attempted to close the action with a .001 thick piece of brass shim stock in the breech--no go without truly "forcing" the action; This gun is not the apparent quality of the Simson gun...I base this on my observations only (no engraving, no cocking indicators, low cost stock wood).-------On the positive side, this gun has not been used much if at all; action retains almost 100% case color; there is no serious metal wear anywhere although there is some light surface rust and the usual marks from gun safe or cabinet; gun has bushed strikers; no repairs of any kind are visible; 100% functional; all matching serial numbers.

So, again I have to ask...what is the future hold for this gun?? Would you consider this gun as a possible donor for the .470 or .500 build??? If not, what are your concerns??? I am open to any suggestions----Please hold forth. All ideas welcomed!!!

If you need to see anything more on either gun, I can take more pictures!!

Howard

--------------------
...Howard...

Have tool will travel..

If you are not part of the solution,....You are part of the problem!

Edited by CptCurl (12/06/12 08:10 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210793 - 13/06/12 12:11 AM

My first double rifle, a .450-3 1/4" N.E., was built on a 16 bore shotgun almost identical to the one you have pictured. It has over 1000 rounds through it and is still going strong and tight. The main issue with the that cartridge in a 16 bore, is that it is a bit light, making the recoil a bit sharper - it only weighs about 9.5 lbs. , should be 10 lbs. For the larger rimmed cartridges a 16 borea bit small and you begin to push the limit chamber wall thickness and breech area. Also, because of the larger bore sizes, it is even harder to keep the weight up where it needs to be.

The AYA should do everything that you want and allow the weight to be pushed up to what it needs to be.

Ellis

--------------------
DBLGN


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleRifle999
.224 member


Reged: 06/02/12
Posts: 24
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DBLGN]
      #210842 - 14/06/12 04:15 AM

Thanks for the response Ellis. Oh, and thanks for your work on your book as well. It certainly answers a lot of questions....you said at the top of this thread
Quote:

I like .450's (.450-3 1/4" or, even better, .450 #2) because I can get cheap "dirt bank" bullets in that caliber...


and then in your last post
Quote:

My first double rifle, a .450-3 1/4" N.E., was built on a 16 bore shotgun almost identical to the one you have pictured. It has over 1000 rounds through it and is still going strong and tight. The main issue with the that cartridge in a 16 bore, is that it is a bit light, making the recoil a bit sharper - it only weighs about 9.5 lbs. , should be 10 lbs.



If I am reading you correctly, you prefer the .450 #2 3 1/2 over the .450-3 1/4?? I can't really find much difference between the two except the .450 #2 operates at somewhat lower pressure and requires a little more powder to achieve the same ballistics. I like the idea of an original N.E. cartridge--so am considering both of these as possibilities for a build on the 16 bore. I have not ruled out the 45-70 either. Of course the N.E. rounds have significantly more "punch" (on both ends..!!).
Also, do you think it possible to achieve the intended weight without too much trouble..??? You must have tried it I guess...

Also, with respect to a previous post above, are the rim diameters of the .470 and the .500 the same?? My books do not agree on this...(see above). Also rim thicknesses referenced above??

Please anyone else---step in here and give me the benefit of your knowlege and experience!!

Thanks to all...

Howard


edited for clarity...

Edited by DoubleRifle999 (14/06/12 08:19 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210896 - 15/06/12 08:54 AM

Howard,
If I were going to build a double rifle to hunt with overseas, anywhere but here, I would purchase some different brands of brass and measure the head thickness. If it doesn't vary too much then I would chamber it accordingly for the thickest rim thickness and not look back. If you find that the different case rims do vary a lot in thickness, then you are going to have to pick one to use and I would still lean in the direction of the brand with the thickest rims. At least that way if you have to buy ammo overseas it will fit in your gun and the action will close on it.
I have been having troubles with rim thickness myself recently. I am building a .405 Winchester on a 12 gauge action just like your 16 gauge shown. As you are probably aware, the .405 has a rim size that is not shared with other cartridges. I had a new box of 50 Hornady brass cases and I wanted to be able to use my Lee Auto Prime to put the primers in them. The machine has a set of shellholders that just fit the machine and I found one that would work for most of the cases. The rims were tight fitting for thickness but I could get them in and primed except for about four or five out of the 50 cases. I had to relieve under the holding flange a little bit in order to be able to get those odd cases to go into the shellholder. I also found a case that has lengthwise serations or deep scratches down the total length on the shell walls. I have never seen anything like that before, and these were brand new brass form Hornady. I was going to load it but thought better of it. I am now going to load it as a dummy round to reset my dies with ,if needed. The scratches are deep enough in the case walls that they could possibly make it fail during firing.
The 450 #2 has an expanded case volumne and does operate at less pressure than the standard 450 3 1/4 Nitro Express, but as you mentioned, it does take some extra powder to get the same speed.
I think your AYA is an excellent choice for your 450 Nitro and you should have no trouble getting it to weigh in at the right weight. If you decide to part with the 16 gauge let me know, it is just what I am looking for to do a 45/70 on.
Many people look down on the Spanish doubles such as your AYA, but that is because during the years after the second world war, they sometimes had problems with their steels being too soft and the guns would wear out too quickly. You won't have that problem with this AYA. It looks like it has "all the bells an whistles" on it, and the best part is that it is well made and still tight on face. You will have to be just a little careful with the reloading though, those sideclips can tend to "bite" you if you get in too big a hurry. I didn't believe that when I was given the same advice, but I soon found out otherwise.
I think that the 470 is a good choice for African big game and it seems to be the most popular caliber used over there, making it maybe the easiest to buy ammo for. I also like the 500 Nitro and I suspect that the recoil difference will be unnoticeable when shooting at game. Since playing with these doubles I have become a big fan of the Elmer Keith formula for shooting big game. You can't really overkill anything, and it pays to have all the horsepower you can get when faced with a mad animal that is likely to bite you bad if you don't kill him quickly. If you are going to be loading your own ammo, I would go with a hardcast LBT flatnosed bullet with a large meplat, that thumps them! Bob


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DBLGN
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/07
Posts: 46
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #210937 - 16/06/12 01:49 AM

I prefer the 450 #2 from a reloader's stand point. The bottle neck case and the thicker rim make it somewhat easier to reload. I have found the thin .040" rims pull off pretty easily if the case even hesitates a bit in the sizing die. I have overcome a lot of that by going to Hornady's lanolin based paste lube. Still, when you pull the rim off of a brand new $3.00-$5.00 piece of brass, it make you want to cry. Even though the 450 #2 does require more powder to do the same job as the 450-3 1/4", I like the fact that it does it with less chamber pressure.

In reality, like you say, there is no difference in performance between the two and it really comes down to personal choice - which one appeals to you the most.

If you are going to travel a lot, the .470 probably makes the most sense. It is currently the most popular and you stand a better chance of getting ammunition for it somewhere than about any other cartridge. Basically everything that Birdshooter50 said.

Weight: I have, on two guns, added weight to the buttstock (basically a "slug" of lead). While this did add to the overall weight of the gun, the main purpose was to balance the gun. While it seems like there is a lot of other stuff - 1/4-rib, mid-rib, front sight, sling mount, etc. that goes on a set of barrels, the bulk of the weight comes from the contour of the barrels and the difference in diameter between a 12 bore and a 16 bore, amounts to quite a bit of weight. Restocking with denser, heavier wood helps too. Yes, it is possible to add weight, but it is better if it is planned in "upfront" - I did not do that with my first .450.

--------------------
DBLGN


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Build--470 NE [Re: DoubleRifle999]
      #210938 - 16/06/12 02:07 AM

Howard,
After reading over this post again and looking at the pictures, I saw another big advbantage to your using the AYA over the Simson. The Simsons and lots of other German Suhl guns have what is called a scolloped or fancy back on them, they look nice but most of the ones I have seen are either cracked already or like would be cracked if you built a heavy recoiling rifle on them. From a stockmakers veiwpoint, the straight back on the AYA will soak up alot more recoil and stay together. Also, if it ever has to be restocked the straight backed type are much easier to deal with. Bob


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 5 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 9141

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved