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bonanza
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Loc: South Carolina
New 500/416 cartridge
      #20419 - 04/11/04 01:39 AM

Could the new 500/416 be the furture of DR cartridges? I would certainly have got it, if it were offered in my Merkel.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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DUGABOY1
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20422 - 04/11/04 02:58 AM

I believe the 500/416 is a fine cartridge, and is being chambered in several double rifles today. However, big bore double users, seem to like the .450 cal, and up more than the .416. The thing that it might do is, convert a lot of 416 bolt rifle users to go to double rifles.

I think the 500/416 is here to stay, yet I don't think it will ever be as popular as the older chamberings, that are .450, and above in doubles. It is about as close, as one can get to the, very popular, 450/400, however, and is a great cartridge that will have a, not overwhelming, following,IMO ! I personally like the 500/450 better, though componants are harder to come by! All opinion, nothing more!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
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bonanza
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #20423 - 04/11/04 03:22 AM

The number of DR produced in the next 100 years will pale compared to the last 100 years. Most manufactures will likely chamber the 500/416 over any older cartridge except the 470NE and 375H&H. But, then again Merkel just came out with there 500NE. I hope it is successful.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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4seventy
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20431 - 04/11/04 07:53 AM

In reply to:

But, then again Merkel just came out with there 500NE. I hope it is successful.




Yeah, and Heym has a 600NE.


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clark7781
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20434 - 04/11/04 08:45 AM

Regarding the Merkel in .500 NE, I bought one and absolutely love it. When I got it, the owner of the shop was telling me the GSI, the importer for Merkel in the USA, will only be brining 50 of the DR's in .500 in the US the first year. He said if it does well, they'll bring in more.

Only time will tell how it does.


--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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Rusty
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20436 - 04/11/04 08:53 AM

Bonanza,
Actually the numbers of double rifles produced between, say 1920-2000, were surprisingly small. I think a check of the books on British Gunmakers will bear that out.

I think there is a bright future for double rifles! They may not be British, but there will be double rifles.

As far as the 500/416 is concerned, I think it will become a classic double rifle round as soon as enough folks use it.
It provides the classic double rifle round features. A flanged case, delivers a large caliber bullet at moderate pressure. I can see where some would argue that it isn't a "Stopper". However when it comes to penetration that long .416 bullet is just the ticket. I can see the 500/416 used more than, say a 470 or a 500 as an all around double.

A friend has a Kreighoff in 500/416. He took it to Africa and it swatted all the game he could shoot with it.

If I were to by another double rifle, today, it would be chambered in either 500/416 or 475 #2 Jeffery.

Just my opine.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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bonanza
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: clark7781]
      #20437 - 04/11/04 09:05 AM

"Regarding the Merkel in .500 NE, I bought one and absolutely love it."

What about ammo?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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Rusty
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20440 - 04/11/04 11:49 AM

My friend David, bought a Merkel 500 3 inch. Serial number 500-01.
I'm going to load some rounds for him. What are your loads for your 500?


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

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NE450No2
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: Rusty]
      #20452 - 04/11/04 03:45 PM

I fired PWN's 500/416 Krieghoff at Camp Cooley. At 40 yards a Right/Left,Soft/Solid cut one ragged hole. The rifle has slightly more recoil that a 450/400 but kicks less than a 470. While it is no secret that I prefer British Big Bore doubles, I have no problem with the Krieghoff cocking system. I think the other "modern" double rifle makers are making a very BIG mistake by not chambering their doubles for one of the 450/400's or the 500/416. With a scope in QD mounts a 40 cal double would be an excellent all-round big bore rifle. With fast expanding 300 grain bullets the 40 cal doubles make great deer and pig guns, giving you plenty of practice. With 400 grain bullets they work great for elk moose and the big bears when you do not expect long shots.
A 500/416, or a 450/400 double with a 9,3x74R double, [and OK a 300 Mag for the long range stuff] would make an excellent hunting battery.


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clark7781
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20467 - 05/11/04 01:39 AM

Bonanza:

I hand load and the cost/shot averages about US$5.00-6.50 depending on the bullet initially, but since I reload the cases a few times the cost/shot drops each time I reload.

Regarding buying ammo "over the counter," I buy them from Superior Ammo in Sturgis, South Dakota. With shipping a cost of 10 rounds run about US$105.00.

I don't do much shooting with it in comparison to my .338 Win or .416 Rem.





--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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bonanza
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: clark7781]
      #20468 - 05/11/04 02:36 AM

Clark,

How well does it shoot? What kind of groups are you getting?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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clark7781
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20469 - 05/11/04 02:59 AM

Bonanza:

I've only put about two dozen rounds down range with it at both 50 and 100 yard targets. I usually shoot it off hand, but the sitting position is better than standing. (But I think the recoil is worse sitting--personal opinion here.)

I'm also getting used to the recoil ;-)

To be honest, at 50 yards (sitting) I'm doing pretty good. I am usually getting them within three-four inches; at 100 yards (sitting) I'm getting about five-six inch groups.

Off hand, hell, sometimes I miss the side of the barn!

I'm a novice with shooting the Merkel, but with regular bolt action rifles I'm a pretty good shot. With this big double, I "OK", but in need of more practice.

As to note, the regulation target sent with my rifle had a 1.5-2" grouping at 100 yards. (I'll have to check it again when I get home and bone up on my German).

DISCLAIMER--the groupings may just be blind, dumb luck! Only time will tell when I shoot some more--what a great reason to cap off a few more! For the good of the team!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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bonanza
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: clark7781]
      #20470 - 05/11/04 03:39 AM

Clark,

First, double check your target from the factory, it should be 50 meters, mine was. Next shoot it of the bench. Get a 25 pound bag of shot, empty it (save the lead), refill with sand, put between shoulder and butt. This is how I work up a load. I can shoot my double like a varmit rifle when I don't have to think about recoil. I shoot 6 rounds (right-left, rest, right-left, rest, right-left) I keep playing with the load (powder and loads) untill all six are clustering around the 10 ring in a sub 3" group. It is very tedious as some load are terrible. It took me 10 trys to get the 235s to regulate, the 270s shoot out the 10 ring on the first load. I'm still playing with the 300s. I think I would go for a 500 over the 470 because of the bullet selection. Hell, you could even try .50 cal. sabots!

B.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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clark7781
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20471 - 05/11/04 03:58 AM

B:

Thanks for the info. I will double check the reg. when I get home--you are probably right about the 50 yards (or meters).

I will take your advice about the brace bag. I plan on doing a lot more shooting in the coming months and can't wait to play with it some more.

Are you considering getting a .500?



--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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bonanza
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: clark7781]
      #20475 - 05/11/04 06:39 AM

Don't I wish! I can only afford one DR for now. I'm saving my money for a hunt. Someday I might get a big-bore double.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20491 - 05/11/04 01:07 PM

It certainly will be a classic NE cartridge in the future.

Why:
1. It is being offered by a number of manufacturers in modern rifles which are affordable - Kriefhof, Merkel, Searcy, probably others;
2. Loaded cartridges and brass can be obtained;
3. Projectiles are very easily obtained in comparison to many other double rifle calibres - similar to a .450 (.458) and a .470;
4. It uses a consistent bore - .416 - unlike the other very fine .400's - it does not have a problem in the bore size could vary between .408 and .411.;
5. The calibre matches a popular bolt action bore size - .416 Rigby and .416 Rem Mag;
6. The calibre sounds right, a .500/.416 Nitro Express". It sounds like a older NE round and a classic. Non of these "Ultras", "Magnums" etc and even worse a brand-name in its title. It is a 'open' to all calibre.

I aim to purchase one one day in a modern side-by-side setup with a scope. Just to be different from the other(s).



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20506 - 06/11/04 12:03 AM

Hello Bonanza,

I saw your interest in the Merkel .500 NE.

Last Spring a friend and I each bought one just after they came out. We have shot them hundreds of time since then and dearly love them. They are not completely trouble free, but the problems have been minor.

Ammo is absolutely no problem. Huntington's is the solution. RCBS dies are about $230.00, the same price as .470 dies. Brass is less than $2.00 per stick and lasts forever, given the low pressure. Woodleigh bullets are less than $1.00 each, available from many sources, including Huntington's and Midway. My load is 105 gr. IMR 4350 with the 570 grain Woodleigh and a Fed. 215 primer.

The exciting thing is that Cast Performance sells heat-treated LBT style bullets in 525 grains. They regulate perfectly with the same load, shoot to the same point of aim, and cost only $75.00 per 200 including shipping. That's $0.375 each. So we are shooting the big .500 for under $1.00 per round with no problems getting components.

On the other hand, you can buy factory ammo for about $11.00 per stick. Same price as .470. It is available from Galazan (Kynoch) and Westley Richards (Westley Richards branded).

A great plus of the .500 over the .470, aside from ballistics and nostalgia, is the fact that it is a 3" case. You can load it on a standard Rock Chucker press without much contortion. The .470 with its 3.25" case is much more difficult to produce on the Rock Chucker.

The Merkel weighs just over 10 lbs. It is very comfortable to shoot offhand, but a real brute off the bench. Carries handy as hell. I am using a Galco leather slip-on pad for some extra length. (I'm 6' 3" tall) My buddy got a pad put on his.

Accuracy is fine. I can shoot 4 shots off the bench into less than 2" no problem (Ouch!) with either the Woodleigh or the Cast Performance.

It's not an English DR, but Merkel goes back to the "Golden Age" just as the remaining English makers do. They know what they are doing, and the rifle is a solid performer. I recommend the plain model (140-2), not the "higher" grade (140-2.1) with the cartoon engraving @ $1,000.00. The crappy engraving detracts and takes money out of your pocket.

I don't own stock in Merkel, and I do absolutely love the classic British DR's and have a few. I also own DR's from other nations. I'd take the Merkel over a Searcy hands down.

OK, so I've been skulking around NitroExpress.com for a good while, keeping my silence. You got my first post!

Cheers to all!

CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bonanza
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #20508 - 06/11/04 01:04 AM

Welcome CptCurl,

I think the Merkel 500NE will be a big seller in the US. It only has recently become available, but I'm seeing them advertised on gunsamerica.com at good prices. I have the 140-2 also and the scroll work is tastefull. Once that varnish wears off the action, the metal (which is steel not stainless or nickel) mellows into a grayish hue and is not shiny. What kind of problems have you had? Mine has performed flawlessly.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: bonanza]
      #20515 - 06/11/04 01:44 AM

Bonanza,

Two problems only.

First, there is a round steel bar mounted in the butt to add weight. The bar is about 13 ounces. Mine was very poorly mounted and shot loose (as did my buddy's). I re-mounted mine in more sturdy fashion and have had no further trouble so far. My buddy did a radical fix that I will decline to discuss in public.

Second, on my gun the recoil is enough to throw the safety to the "on" position after shooting the right barrel. Definitely would be a negative in the face of dangerous game. But it's an easy fix. I have not attempted to fix it and will send it to GSI.

I have discussed the guns and the problems at length with the folks at GSI - Einar Hoff and Danny Spahn. They have seen other Merkels with the safety issue and have no problem fixing that. They are concerned about the steel weight mounting, and I suspect they have urged Merkel to do something better. Maybe the newer guns have this corrected. Mine is SN A500003, assumably #3 of the lot.

Early on I could see that my action was settling into the stock along the bottom edge. I suspected that a cracked stock might be in the offing. I planned to shoot it as much as possible during the warranty period to see if it would break, and then send it back for a new stock. But at this point it seems to have seated itself solid against the head of the stock, and there are no cracks. Still I will shoot it and see what results.

The guys at GSI are fine people, and they have appreciated my observations, both good and bad. I have talked to them a number of times on the phone, and I visited with them at length at the Vintagers in New York this past September. They regularly send feed-back to Merkel in the effort to improve the product.

Again, the Merkel 140-2 is what it is. Don't look for full-coverage hand engraving. Don't look for a stock hand shaped from a $3,500 piece of wood. If you want those refinements, they are certainly available elsewhere. I enjoy those on other double guns, but they cost multiples of the price I paid for the Merkel. The Merkel is a good, solid, accurate working gun. It claims to be no more than that. Frankly, I think the price you can negotiate on one is outstanding.

And let me give another plug on that issue. I bought mine through Hendershot's Sporting Goods, of Hancock, Maryland. I was drawn to them by an add on GunsAmerica for a Merkel 140-2.1 in .500 NE. I'll say without reservation that Lance Hendershot is a great guy to deal with. No, I don't work for them or have any interest in their business. That was my first contact with that establishment. I live in western Virginia. I bought the Merkel through Hendershot's, and it was shipped directly to my dealer here in VA for me to pick up and do the paperwork. Couldn't have been easier.

By the way, I see you are in South Carolina. If you have a chance to come to western Virginia I'll be glad to let you test drive the Merkel at our range. It's always good to make the acquaintence of another double gun afficionado.

Regards,
CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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clark7781
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #20516 - 06/11/04 02:39 AM

CptCurl:

First, welcome to the board--I'm a "newbie" like you and I am pleased to meet so many DR owners/fans out there.

Two things:

First, I'm a Virginian too! (Fairfax County here) and two, I also got my Merkel from Hendershot's! And I completely agree with you about Lance. I drove the 1.5 hours to their store and Lance was kind enough to spend over an hour with me during a VERY busy time for his shop! (Maybe it was becuase I bought the Merkel, a Win. in 375 H&H and am ordering an AR-50...No, it's not that, he's just a GREAT GUY!

Send me an IM. What part of Virginia are you from? The closest range for me to shot my monster is at the CF Phelps WMA in Culpeper Co.

If you are not too far, perhaps we can get together sometime and meet at a range and check out each other's .500s....

Also, if you deer hunt, I would love to pick your brain on good places to go in VA--maybe 2-3 hours from Fairfax Co. I moved to VA about five years ago and between career, graduate school and starting a family, deer hunting didn't seem to fit in....until now ;-)

Again, nice to meet you...


--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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bonanza
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: clark7781]
      #20519 - 06/11/04 03:08 AM

God - I can't believe you to missed the Big Game Shoot last month. I drove through Va. and we could have met up. Buddy of mine has a .470 Merkel and somehow cracked the stock in ways other than shooting. They restocked it free of charge to my amazement, but he was still (barely) in warrenty. I recomend you shoot the hell out of you gun while it's in warrenty to uncover any flaws. I've got about 6 months left on mine. Funny, in Germany, the warrenty is 5 years. They must not shoot as much there. Hell in 5 years I'll have about 2000 rounds through mine!

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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Rusty
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #20534 - 06/11/04 09:24 AM

CptCurl
Thanks for passing along your load information. I will give it a try in David's 500.

Best regards,



--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: Rusty]
      #20537 - 06/11/04 10:49 AM

Hi Rusty,

In regard to loads for the .500 NE in the Merkel, my buddy's gun seems to prefer loads with IMR 4831. He has to use a drop tube to get the charge in the case. I don't remember what charge he uses.

My load of 105 gr. IMR 4350, Woodleigh 570, Fed 215 reflects no brainpower on my part. It is recommended by Graeme Wright in his book, Shooting the British Double Rifle. The great assurance is that he had the load pressure tested by the Birmingham proof house. A load of 108 gr. IMR 4350 tested at 12.7 tpsi, while the standard 80 gr. cordite load tests at 16.0 tpsi. The 4350 load is down in black powder pressures, but yielding full velocity. Similarly, he tested 105 gr. of H4350 at 12.2 tpsi.

The Hodgdon website gives data for the 50-140 Sharps. Their data is pressure tested and limited to black powder pressures. The 50-140 is a 3.25" case, but otherwise no different from the .500 NE 3". They report that 108 gr. of H4350 with a Lyman 515 gr. bullet yields 2091 fps @ 27,200 CUP. Review the data at:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#50-140

Good luck with the .500 NE

Regards,
Cptcurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: Rusty]
      #20538 - 06/11/04 11:02 AM

Rusty,

P.S. to my last post.

I also considered the data at the Accurate Arms website for the 50-140 Sharps.

They found that 105 gr. AA4350 and 550 gr. lead bullet yielded 2184 fps @ 27,500 psi, less than the black powder pressure of 28,000 psi.

View their data at:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ObsoleteCartridges/50%20140%20Sharps%20pages%20371%20and%20372.pdf

Again, good luck and good shooting.

CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Peterb
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Re: New 500/416 cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #20637 - 08/11/04 11:16 AM

The greatest problem with 500/416 is that the 4 major cartridge companies all load it to a different velocity. That means a different point of impact every time you buy a different brand of ammo

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