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crl
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Reged: 26/10/04
Posts: 17
Loc: MN
Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE
      #20134 - 29/10/04 04:49 AM

As I am wanting to hunt in Africa in 06 I want a double gun. I know I don't need one really but damnit how can a guy hunt in Africa without one. I have a Dakota Safari in 375 H&H that I love and will be taking as well as a Kimber 300 WSM. Now my dilema is this: I have found a very nice MK Owens 450 NE for a reasonable price and a Searcy 470 NE at a good price. What's a guy to do? Which of these two calibers in preferable? Any thoughts, opinions and insults gladly accepted.

Thanks
crl


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nitro476
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Reged: 21/10/04
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20135 - 29/10/04 05:21 AM

Both are fine but the 470 is very popular as ammo is available across the counter! The Owens must be an English gun and in my opinion, are hard to beat! The Searcy is well made and very accurate but if the need ever arises and you need to sell, the English gun will definitely have the advantage of retaining it's value or even making you a profit!

I took a 470 Rigby to Africa on my first trip and it was a treat to hunt Africa wih a vintage rifle! I took a super buffalo and a Zebra with the 470.


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bonanza
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20136 - 29/10/04 05:23 AM

Welcome to NE - the most opinionated gun forum. Yes, a DR is a must IMHO. I'm going to hunt in Africa or Oz in '06 also, got to pay of my DR first. The Australians on this forum almost have me convinced to hunt there instead of Africa. Now, regarding your question. You must get a test target from the owner. It should be a 4-6 shot group at 50y. Let me explain: Any DR worth it's weight in lead should print a 4-6 shot group not larger than 3" near the center of the target. The sights are normally not adjustable, and if it performs as I have stated, the gun is regulated properly. If either gun you have mentioned sprays the bullet holes - stay away. My gun will group 6 shots under 3" and that is the standard of most owners on this forum demand. Next is the condition of the stick. Is the action nice and tight, how are the bores, etc. Lastly, if you buy one, have patience. DRs are not like bolt guns, you must play with them (hand load) to really get them to shine. I have begun to compete with mine against bolt guns and have won. I love mine and really don't mess my other guns any more

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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crl
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Reged: 26/10/04
Posts: 17
Loc: MN
Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: nitro476]
      #20137 - 29/10/04 05:23 AM

Thanks for the input. Actually the MK Owens is an American rifle. I believe he lives in Texas and now only makes 500 and larger caliber doubles.

crl


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bonanza
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20138 - 29/10/04 05:27 AM

What is your budget?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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bonanza
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: bonanza]
      #20139 - 29/10/04 05:35 AM

Check this out. Thad Scott has a fine Merkel .470 for $7450 that will last a lifetime. And, you can get is serviced right here in the USA. http://www.thadscott.com/ He has a three day inspection period, and the gun will come with a factory target.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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crl
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Reged: 26/10/04
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: bonanza]
      #20140 - 29/10/04 06:05 AM

Bonanza

My budget is $10,000 or less. Thanks for the Thad Scott tip. I like your suggestion on getting a target.

I have lots of experience with load development for my shiloh sharps 45-70. I shoot Black out of it and cast my own bullets. I kind of figured that DGs would be similar in that they need to have the right load to shoot well.

crl


Edited by crl (29/10/04 06:08 AM)


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atkinson6
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20141 - 29/10/04 07:45 AM

I would buy one of the new Searcy PH models..they shoot great and send most all loads to the same POI and you can shoot monolithic solids or Hp in them..Something English rifles will not do...I have shot English guns all my life, but I am sold on the Searcy guns for hunting...

Regardless of what one hears, most of the old English guns have seen better days, I see them all the time and hear the bragging that goes with them and 95% of them are pretty much junk, the bores are poor and that has become acdeptable, the action is more times than not off the face and the owner does not know it, and hey most of them are 100 years old and steel in those days was not as good....I have used and shot many of these old guns, but after owning my Searcy I will never shoot another medicore English gun...

A high dollar English double in near mint condition is a thing of beauty and a great investment in your future, but not something I want to haul to Africa at the hands of baggage handlers and camp staff!


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nitro476
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: atkinson6]
      #20147 - 29/10/04 08:21 AM

The English guns will always sell the rest will take a lot of time and a big reduction in price.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20151 - 29/10/04 08:51 AM

In reply to:

My budget is $10,000 or less. Thanks for the Thad Scott tip. I like your suggestion on getting a target.





I'm going to have to agree with Ray Atkinson on the choice with a $10K budget! It has always been my belief that a first time owner of a double rifle should buy a NEW rifle! In the $10K budget the Searcy is the best of the lot for a new rifle. Everyone always sites the investment factor for a reason to buy an English double. I disagree! Just like the stock market, if you aren't absolutely up to snuff on a Brit double rifles you can loose your but on the re-sale! The Britt doubles, if good ones, are good investments, but just about anything that has been cared for that is nere 100 yrs old can be a good investment, but can bite you in the butt as well! That 100 yr old double rifle didn't sell for anything but a USED GUN price when it was a 5 yr old usd rifle! What makes anyone think a B. Searcy should sell any better when it is five yrs old, but when it is 50, or 60 yrs old it will be a collector item as well. Besides, I don't know anyone who has a double rifle, made to fit them, that sells it anyway. A double rifle that is made to fit you, and uses top of the line materials, and has the accuracy of a B. Searcy, and priced like the PH model, at $9500 is , IMO, a bargain that can be had no other place!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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mickeyModerator
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20167 - 29/10/04 01:38 PM

In reply to:

Poster: crl
Subject: Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE

Thanks for the input. Actually the MK Owens is an American rifle. I believe he lives in Texas and now only makes 500 and larger caliber doubles.





I'm a big fan of English rifles and both being in the same condition would always take one over another brand. But, I think you would be much better off with Searcy in this case.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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kos
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: mickey]
      #20171 - 29/10/04 03:02 PM

CRL ,Butch Searcy has a secondhand deluxe 500 for sale for $10500.00 i tried to email you photos ,but email returned to me ,give him a call ,kos

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ErikDAdministrator
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #20173 - 29/10/04 06:17 PM

In reply to:

Besides, I don't know anyone who has a double rifle, made to fit them, that sells it anyway.




This is my way of thinking. When I hopefully buy a double, it will be for using, not selling after a few years. And then eventually it'll be handed down to my children. By that time, it will presumably be kind of the same as an English double is today when it comes to value.

Erik D.

--------------------

Cut along dotted line, discard top part.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20176 - 29/10/04 09:49 PM

Well, now that the gratuitous Searcy advertisement has finally come to an end, we can re-examine the original question: which of these two calibres is preferable?

With the .470, you will be locked in to paying premium prices for projectiles, and will probably have only the one bullet weight available. The .450 however can be fed a plethora of cheap .458 bullets from the trade, for endless experimentation with different weights, styles, etc, and cheap practice at the range. Many posters here will tell you that only the one bullet-weight will regulate in a double anyway, but that is usually untrue, I suspect especially for modern American-made doubles.

I prefer the .470 myself, its THE African big-bore cartridge for double rifles, but the .450 was the first nitro-express and is probably still the most practical choice today.

...that is, unless you are very well-off and can afford to buy Federal .470 factory loads, in which case why not buy both rifles!?!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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470Rigby
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20179 - 29/10/04 11:28 PM

.470NE Highest Mean Service Pressure - 2400 bar

.450x31/4"NE Highest Mean Service Pressure - 2700 bar

Quod erat demonstrandum!

BTW-Actually, there is now available a range of .475" dia bullets for .480 Ruger and .475 Linbaugh to play around with in a .470. I've tried 325 and 400 gr. Hornady's, and they work a treat?!


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: crl]
      #20217 - 30/10/04 11:04 AM

crl
The Above Posters have given you good advice...
However, there is no double rifle like a good British double rifle. Even Ray and Dougaboy will/should admit this. [Do not make me quote y'all from our "personal" conversations , I do not want to "drop a dime" on you, but I have a pocket full of change ].
In a Big Bore double, if you have the money and the time you can find a good one. Contact www.champlinarms.com
As to calibre. The 470 is the current modern favorite. Even Federal loads 4 different bullets for it. It is a great round.
I have a 450 No2. When I was shopping for a double I wanted a .458 bore so I could use 350 Hornadays for deer and pigs. I have been very, very happy with my 450 No2, especially in Africa where I have taken 2 buff and 3 elephants.
The truth is [as I see it ] any calibre double from the 450 to the 475 is equal in "killing power". I would just want it to be British if I had a choice.

PS I also have a British 450/400. [Mine is a 3 1/4", the 3" is just as good]. I would not hesitate to recommend the 450/400 as a persons first/ and or only double rifle.


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Martin
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Loc: British
Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: atkinson6]
      #20237 - 30/10/04 10:10 PM

Hi Ray.

Re: "A high dollar English double in near mint condition is a thing of beauty and a great investment in your future, but not something I want to haul to Africa at the hands of baggage handlers and camp staff!"

What else are you going to do with it Ray? Hang it on the wall? Of course they're things of beauty but the joy must surely be in using them. They can always be refinshed. I think this particularly so as we get older - you can't take it with you sir.

Martin




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AussieMike
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Reged: 01/09/04
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Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: Martin]
      #20238 - 30/10/04 11:35 PM

Hi guys,

I'm just a poor Aussie with a bit of experience with a couple of European doubles and five british doubles. IMHO, if you're going to spend $US10,000 you want to have a bit of fun, and if you're not hunting until'06 you've got time to play around. With six doubles under my belt, I've never had onr that I couldn't get to regulate on the sights (OK, I had a bit of help fom Vic Pedersen on my 470 but not until after it had taken rabbit, goat, fox, pig and cape buffalo).

If you were leaving for your safari in a month I'd buy a new gun, but given 3+ months I'd buy something you love.

I made a big mistake once, at the age of 5 years I traded my Gecado air rifle on a BSA Meteor. Much better rifle but i still miss the Gecado, but, I may change my view, I'm only 47 with 50 rifles. Needless to say, I don't worry to much about resale values and neither does my wife as she's 10 years older than me.

Re baggage handlers etc - i just feel happy to be taking it home.

mike


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: AussieMike]
      #20280 - 31/10/04 03:38 PM

In reply to:

I made a big mistake once, at the age of 5 years I traded my Gecado air rifle on a BSA Meteor. Much better rifle but i still miss the Gecado, but, I may change my view, I'm only 47 with 50 rifles.






In reply to:

Needless to say, I don't worry to much about resale values and neither does my wife as she's 10 years older than me.





Big trouble on the way for Mike I think.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Another newbie Question: 450 NE or 470 NE [Re: 470Rigby]
      #20375 - 02/11/04 07:16 PM

In reply to:

I've tried 325 and 400 gr. Hornady's, and they work a treat?!




470R
Where are these projectiles available for sale?
I've tried a couple of gunshops in my area and they don't have any in stock.
Are you using ADI powder with the 400 and if so would you mind giving me the load?
Thanks


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