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Setterguy
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Winchester 21 DR in 45-70
      #199413 - 14/01/12 11:43 AM

I am starting a new post but actually it is continuation of my previous thread titled Optimal Load for a 45-70. That title was not really supportive of the content. So, anyone new can read the previous thread for background. I have progressed some on the barrels and the receiver is just beginning to be worked on. I have basically lost a year on building the receiver; disappointing! I have not posted pictures of the barrels as yet but will try with this post. Daryl helped last time but it is time I learned myself-------we will see if it works. I have titles and descriptions on the pictures so I hope they follow as well. Here goes---Bill


Winchester 21 20 ga barrels as a donor monobloc



45-70 barrels attached and filed to contour. Front forearm lug soldered inplace.



Breech end ruff chambered for 45-70. Needs to be faced, rim cut and extractors milled in.



45-70 barrels permanently in Win. 21 20 monobloc. Note breech end top must be milled to accept Birdhunter50's top rib. The entire barrel set is in need of striking and polishing.



Closer picture of the original mating of the Winchester barrels. Again will be milled to accept Bob's top rib.



Muzzel end with ruff crowning and temporary spacers between barrels.



Side view of the barrels.



Side view of the barrels with Birdhunter50's top rib setting on top. Breech still not milled out to accept ribs.



Top view with Bob's top rib in setting in place.



Previously posted side view of the prototype 21 receiver I am making. It is ruff milled and currently (today) the top tang was made and shaped to a stock. It must be filed, sanded and polished inside and out to ensure all the internals function properly.



Top view of the ruff milled receiver. More pictures of the receiver and forearm parts on the previous thread.



I will post more pictures as I hopefully make some progress------------Bill








Edited by CptCurl (16/01/12 12:44 AM)

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Sarg
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #199418 - 14/01/12 12:33 PM

Well you gave it the old collage try !

Cant wait to see your pics & follow along the thread !

When you copy & paste , just keep checking your post on the reply part before posting .

You only have to save 3 on 4 lines , one of them is sure to work , I think it is the bottom one on my drop down list ?

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tinker
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Sarg]
      #199428 - 14/01/12 02:22 PM

Keep it up!
You'll be a happy man when the job's done, I'm looking forward to seeing how you do.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: tinker]
      #199469 - 15/01/12 05:42 AM

Looking good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #199596 - 16/01/12 02:18 PM

I've got a question of the group. Considering this rifle will be In 45-70 I could still shorten the barrels to 22 inches vs leaving them at 24 as they currently are. Has anyone done the pros and cons of barrel length for a 45-70?------Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: tinker]
      #201023 - 29/01/12 02:52 PM

Thank you for the input on the barrel length. I will leave them at 24 inches. Birdhunter I agree with you on on handling and weight forward. You asked about body size. I am 6-2 and 245 so I do like a hefty rifle and a little weight forward. --------------Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #201062 - 30/01/12 02:14 AM

I have made some progress since the last pictures. I have completed the top tang made to the proper radius to fit a stock, welded it in place and drilled the hole to accomodate the top lever. I am now working on fitting the trigger plate to the underside of the frame. It has a small space between the end and the mating surface of the frame so I will have to weld in some material then file it away to fit as it should. The rest of the trigger plate fits correctly. Then the next step is to contour the frame with the trigger plate in to final contours.

As you can see I still have to mill out the slot for the safety and drill and tap the holes for the screws.




Not a very good picture but it does show the radius of the tang.



I will send some more pictures as I make progress.--------Bill

Edited by CptCurl (01/02/12 11:33 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223584 - 14/01/13 11:09 AM

After a considerable delay I am back with some updates on my Winchester 21 DR 45-70 project. Since my last post (last year) I have completed all the 3-D scans of the prototype receiver, trigger plate, top lever, monobloc, and forearm shoe. We have just verified and modified the CAD data to input to the CAM program for the receiver. It turns out that the CAD data was prepared expecting a 4 axis CNC milling machine while my machinist only has a 2 axis machine. This caused considerable delay in rewriting the program since the milling machine tried to pick up data inside the block of steel and would plunge the bit into the metal causing quite a mess. Anyway, this is something for you to keep in mind if you try this. The learning curve has been steep for me but I think I am finally ready to finish milling out the receiver. The first thing we did was extract the data for the outline of the receiver being careful to be exact on the water table and the radius for the hinge pin. We set up the EDM wire cutter to cut out two receivers at once (see pictures below). You can see from these pictures we are literally starting with a solid block of 4340 steel alloy. The wire cutter saves a tremendous amount of milling time and does a great job on the flat or surfaces that require a precise radius. I highly recommend you use this step first.

EDM tank. You can't see the metal block but it is in a bracket below.



Tank emptied with one cut completed



Both cuts made from block of 4340 steel alloy.



Receivers as released from the initial EMD cut.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223587 - 14/01/13 11:23 AM

Thought I would add a couple more pictures to show the radius and the watertable.



Hinge pin radius.

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DarylS
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223589 - 14/01/13 11:30 AM

Oh MAN - what a LOT of work - you guys building doubles from scratch - WOW and BRAVO!!

Gotta be a labour of love. I can't seem to get motivated to load my .17AH's. Nothing to make, just load.

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #223593 - 14/01/13 12:00 PM

Setterguy,

Thanks very much for an update of your epic project.

Great to see it taking shape.

Looking forward to seeing progress photos of the CNC work.

I wish you every success in this "grand endeavour".

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Matabele
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #223609 - 14/01/13 05:15 PM

I love to see projects like this! Thanks for posting and all the best for your endeavour, and please keep us updated, thanks.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Matabele]
      #223657 - 15/01/13 10:54 AM

First I must correct some errors in my earlier post. I simple didn't read it well enough after typing it. The first error was in the description of the machinist CNC machine vis a vis the scan data. I said he had a two axis machine but, in fact, counting the "Z" axis i.e. the depth then he has a 3 axis machine. What he can't do is rotate the part. He can do X and Y axis as well as depth. The second error I should have seen immediately but didn't until I re-read the post. The pictures I posted and said they were 4340 steel alloy are actually 6Al-4V grade V titanium. We wire cut both the titanium and 4340 in the same manner and at the same time but I posted a picture of the titanium. The picture below is both steel and titanium. The difference is apparent. I was confident of the EDM cutting so we did both but we are using the 4340 steel to mill first to validate the codes. I will be using the 4340 for the DR receivers and the titanium for shotguns.

4340 and grade V titanium wirecut receivers



I will soon show some pictures of the validation process and the steps along the way.---Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:00 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223709 - 16/01/13 09:57 AM

I promised to show some photos for the validation process of using the CAD data in the CAM milling machine. After cutting the receivers from the blocks of steel and titanium we needed to see if the program would accurately reproduce the all the outside contours of the receiver. We used a block of aluminum to start this process in order to not ruin one of the actual receivers. It was a good thing too since we did have a problem as discussed above. Below are some pictures of the outcoume.





You can see that the receiver contours are going to be correct and the dimensions accurate. As you can see from the next series of pictures the receiver is taking shape.




















As I have said in other threads there really is no shortcut to this process. Each step must be validated and verified. I have now begun the actual milling of the 4340 steel alloy receivers. I should say that the two dimension milling of the insides of the receiver are more straightforward than the complex radii of the surface. I will post progress as I hopefully make some.---Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:02 PM)

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223712 - 16/01/13 12:08 PM

Bill,

It's great to see your progress on this project. It's fascinating. The whole CAD/CAM/CNC process is a real testimony to worthwhile technology.

As you see the action emerge from the material I'm sure you'll be happy you endured the trials and tribulations you encountered and persisted.

I wish you every success with this project and please keep the photos coming.

It encourages me to get back to my own study of the CAD/CAM/CNC process.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223726 - 16/01/13 03:45 PM

I just reopened the thread and saw that the pictures had disappeared. I have no idea how that happened. Here they are again.







Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:04 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223727 - 16/01/13 03:50 PM

The second set of pictures from above that somehow disappeared???





If I deleted them somehow I don't know what I did and hope I don't do it again.---Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:05 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223821 - 18/01/13 08:14 AM

I have now completed the barrels for the DR. They are waiting on the completion of the receiver to be regulated. I used one of Bob Hynden's(Birdhunter50)top ribs and it worked out great. It saved me a lot of work making one. Before anyone jumps on me for making a beavertail forearm and being a nontraditionalist I need to say that the Winchester 21 came predominately with a beavertail. So, I am true to the gun. However, you will see in one of the photos that I do have a splinter forearm but I need to refinish the wood. I will try both to see which one I like the most. I will try and keep an open mind. I know this is an area for very strong opinions from the forum group.

As Bob has pointed out to me before, first time builders such as myself frequently err on the side of too much metal on the barrels i.e. too heavy and that is the case for this DR. I should have contoured the barrels more but it seemed right at the time. From the best I can tell the DR will weigh about 11 pounds. That is about 2 pounds more than I wanted but it is what it is. I further contributed to the weight problem by using the dimensions of a 12 ga stock instead of a 20 ga (the receiver and monobloc are 20 ga). I wanted the pistol grip area to be thicker and stronger than the sleek lines of the 20. I probably didn't need to do that either and it will be over designed in all areas I guess. This is a learning process afterall. Please see the pictures below.

Completed Winchester 21 DR 45-70 barrels and forearm





Front Ramp of Bob's top rib


Top rib and 2 leaf folding site. Quarter rib milled for Talley bases


Breech end completed with selective ejectors made and installed. Faced and fitted to standing breech of prototype


I know some of you don't want to look at this picture but please bear with me


Front sling bracket still loose for regulation


Underside of completed breech end


With fitted but not finished splinter forearm


Dishwasher sighted it and helpless


Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:08 PM)

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TomN
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223824 - 18/01/13 10:16 AM

Setterguy I like the look of the beavertail and it gives you somthing to hang on to. looking good you have a lot ot talent to be able to do that form scratch.
Tom N

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: TomN]
      #223828 - 18/01/13 12:08 PM

Setterguy,

Keep up the good work.

It's great to see the shape of the action evolve as the speeds and feeds are refined.

Perhaps the cure for your overweight .45/70 is a rechamber to 450 3 1/4 NE or .450/500 that'd get the weight "about" right. Build yourself a 9lb .45/70 next time.

If you're worried about the pistol grip being too thin perhaps extended tangs may allow you to have strength in this area but be svelt enough to maintain feel.

Beavertail forends are alright on guns that get shot enough to get "hot to handle" in the front hand but are you ever likely to be shooting "driven elephant" ??? I shoot Sporting clays with a splinter forended sxs and it'll get uncomfortably hot to hang onto. Some say a gloved front hand will do the same thing. Otherwise it's just an individual's opinion of fit and feel.......unless you want weight forward.

To end up with a gun of correct weight for calibre, great balance and feel and dynamic handling is all a "balancing act" ..........pun only half intended.

Just my "two bits" worth. Remember "Free advice is usually worth everything you gave for it!!!!"

Great project. Thanks for posting. Keep us in the loop.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #223838 - 18/01/13 02:57 PM

Twobobbwana,you make a great point on the 450 NE. I have seriously thought about not stamping the barrels maintaing the option of simply extending the chamber to 450. The weight would certainly handle it well. However, I am going to finish it as a 45-70 and see how I like it. It is too early for me to tell since I can't even shoot it yet. You can't believe how anxious I am to get the receiver done. This project has taken so long but I am not going to give up until it is finished. I could shoot it now with the prototype receiver but it does not have bushings and I don't want to take the chance.----Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223855 - 18/01/13 04:42 PM

Steady Bill "Stay the Course".

You're almost there !!!! Remember it's usually the last 5% that is the difference between a good job and a great job.

If you make a shortcut now you'll regret it.

At least an 11lb .45/70 shouldn't kick much. Just don't stamp the cartridge on the barrells yet..... just in case.

I can only have an inkling of your excitement.......watching what would be a long term project come slowly to completion.........at the same time wondering whether a computer glitch/programming problem will cause the cutter to spear through everything, including the milling table, and head towards the basement.

Hang in there and make sure you keep posting photos so that we can all see what can be achieved if we apply ourselves.

When you're producing shotguns and double rifles that you're proud of all the anguish will be worth it.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #223876 - 19/01/13 01:13 AM

Bill,
I wouldn't worry too much about using the beavertail forend on your gun. We have all read the opinions of those who like the splinter forend and those that favor the beavertail. Most collectors of British doubles claim to prefer the splinter because it is traditional and is supposed to help you shoot driven birds better or some such. With a rifle we are talking about pinpoint aimed fire and I personally think the beavertail gives me more control. Your best bet is to do as you suggested, try both, and just see which one you like best for your shooting style. If the beavertail didn't work, they wouldn't be putting them on so many new double rifles. Bob

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #224088 - 22/01/13 07:33 AM

I am posting below some pictures as we begin the actual CNC milling of the receiver. This continues to be a work in progress. The pictures below are where we are as of today. There likely will not be further work until late in the week. The first picture is of the bottom of the receiver where the milling is complete for all the structure. The jig to the right of the four receivers is made to precisely fit the where the trigger plate will mate to the receiver.



This picture is of the back of the receiver with the bottom jig in place.



This is a side view of the receiver. You can see we have done some milling of the top but none as yet on the sides.



Another view of the bottom of a receiver with the matching bottom jig.



This is a view of the four 4340 steel alloy receivers two of which has had some milling.



This is a picture of the top and the beginning of milling the sides



To mill the side they are jigged bottom to bottom so two are done at one time.



You can see from this picture how the milling of the side is progressing.



That's it for now. I will update you as I make progress.-------Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:09 PM)

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Matabele
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #224111 - 22/01/13 05:36 PM

Fantastic to watch Bill, thanks for keeping us in the loop!

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AkMike
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Matabele]
      #224152 - 23/01/13 07:52 AM

These step by step progress pictures are very interesting!
Keep going!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: AkMike]
      #225683 - 21/02/13 01:07 PM

Bill,

How's about an update on your progress.

It's been nearly a month now and I need a "fix".

Hoping that you've been just too busy making progress with this and you've forgotten us "onlookers".

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #225690 - 21/02/13 02:02 PM

I haven't forgotten nor have I stopped,however, I have run into significant translation problems between the CAD data and programming the CAM machine language. I think as of now I have those bugs worked out but have not yet turned the machine loose on its own. When you get a receiver to the state I have you begin to get a little goosey about ruining it. With a little luck I can post something this weekend but I can't promise. I can only promise to do it as soon as I have something significantly new. I have one side down to a few thousands of finish but it gets serious at that point. Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #225696 - 21/02/13 02:42 PM

Thanks Bill.

I can understand you not wanting to ruin any of these actions now that they've come so far.

If you're within a few thou you don't have much room for unexpected glitches.

Is this the job that a G Code editor and back plotter should be doing ?????

Don't confuse this question as me professing to know anything of the process. I'm just trying to increase my knowledge of the process.

Once again thanks for allowing us to be "part of the audience" on your project.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #225701 - 21/02/13 03:17 PM

I can add some new photos. They are just not as far along as I wanted them to be but they are illustrative of problems you may encounter.

This picture show indexing the mill to begin.



This is the mill progressing.



Mill at back end of travel.

[IMG]IMG]

You perhaps can note from this photo an example of a programming problem. If you look carefully at the top receiver you will see an extra groove that should not be there at the top of the bottom radius. We had to go into the program and find this anomoly and fix it or it would have ruined the receiver. It was only on one side and the other was fine. I was not milling the flats with this mill since we would use a different bit for that. We were only dealing with the radius at the bottom of the receiver.



Here is another shot.



I will try and post some video tomorrow if I can find out how. All for now.----Bill

Edited by CptCurl (13/03/13 09:11 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #225774 - 22/02/13 04:20 PM

Twobobbwana, I am not familar with the G. Code editor nor the backplotter. We use a program called Bobcat to visualize the CAD code and translate to the machine CAM code. In theory it should be easy but that is never the case on 3-D programs. That is why the tooling and setup is the majority of the cost and time in CNC processes and virtually never good for one-off jobs. It is simply not worth the cost. I am trying with this entry to post two short videos. I have not done that before so they may not work. I will try some other time and try and learn how. They are not much anyway but they do show how the results were obtained in the still pictures earlier.-----Bill







Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:48 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #225777 - 22/02/13 04:25 PM

Well, they do open if you right click on the photo and hit run but it is not smooth like the real machining. However, they do show some information. If someone can tell me a better way to load video I would be happy to try it.-------------Bill

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2152hq
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #225794 - 23/02/13 04:42 AM

Amazing machine work. I know little (read that as nothing) of the CAD/CAM whatever machinery business. I get by with a little knowledge and minimal skills on a manual crank machines to suit my needs. This stuff is way over the top!

A question,,is the Win21 action single lug bolting system sufficient to handle the job?
I'd guess factory 45-70 and like pressured loads may not be a problem. The 21 has a lot of leverage in the long bar.
But other rounds that generate higher pressures seem to have given other builders problems.
Seems as though Galazan beefed up the locking system in some way on his 21 DR builds. I talked with David Yale when he was building a 7x57R on a Win21 a few years back. I don't think he ever did successfully complete the project dispite several changes to the design.

I've seen a couple of Parker's done to DRifles and sucessfully so with their single locking lug. They were in 30-30 and in 38-55.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: 2152hq]
      #225798 - 23/02/13 08:08 AM

2152hq,
First don't confuse me with an expert at this process. This is immersion learning for me; a good deal of it the hard way. The main reason I am posting is for others to learn along with me and see the mistakes as well and I am making plenty of them. I do believe the Winchester 21 action is plenty strong for the job. Winchester itself built a few 405 Winchester rifles on the action. They didn't continue because they couldn't get the accuracy they desired not because of any strength concerns. Also, since I am making the actions as well I am using 4340 steel alloy which has a much higher yield strength and tensile strength than the forged steels that Winchester used in their shotguns. When I harden them they will far exceed any requirements. Winchester 21s were much stronger than Parkers, LC Smiths, or Fox's (I may get some backlash from this statement). Galazan did have some design changes done in anticipation of building large DRs as I understand it;I think in the order of 577.

I really don't have any concerns if I stay about 45,000 psi or below. I would not want to do anything like 60,000 without a lot of true analyses. For example, I would like to build a 6.5X68R but I am concerned with the pressure. Also, since we can modify the internal design by alterning the code I will increase the amount of steel directly behind the striker holes in order to put in bushings and firing pins. That will substantially beef up that potentially weak point. The negative side of that is now having a hammer and firing pin and not a single integral firing pin hammer. The single hammer firing pin is virtually indestructable and can be dry fired as much as you like. Now the firing pin is subject to failure. But it is an acceptable trade-off.

I would really like to talk with David Yale. Would you PM me his contact information? Also, the reason to use the 21 as the basis of the design is my long-time love for the shotgun. It is not the ideal design for a DR but fits my needs since it will pair with the shotgun.

Hope this answers some of your questions.------------Bill

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2152hq
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #225809 - 23/02/13 09:27 AM

Thank you for the information. Very interesting to say the least.
Yale either went to the trouble of making separate firing pins w/bushings in that Win21 project or perhaps made smaller integral pins and bushed the breech face. It's been a while now & my recollection is failing me. You'd probably enjoy talking with him. Very talented gunsmith & builder.
I don't recall what all else he altered but I remember him talking about adding a cross bolt lockup to the system as the single underbolt was not enough to retain the action shut all the time.
Don't know if that modification actually came to be or not.

He's a working, advertising gunsmith,,no secret basement type.
Good machinest.

He was for several years in Yellow Jacket, Colorado. That's when I talked to him.

He's since moved his business:
J. David Yale
Delta, CO
970-874-1088

Just goes by 'David'.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: 2152hq]
      #226440 - 05/03/13 02:35 PM

2152hq,

Thank you for the contact information for David. He and I have had two very good and informative discussions. He did, in fact, build a 7X57R DR Winchester 21 and it did fail by partially opening. He eventually stopped the project. Our discussions have caused me to reconsider the design of the receiver for greater pressure shells. Neither of us believe there is any problem with the 45-70 I am current building but I had intended to follow that shortly with a 6.5X57R. Unfortunately that cartridge is in the same pressure range as David's. So, I must either stay with lower pressure rounds or make design modifications. First let me say that in previous posts I have stated pretty confidently that 45K psi and below should not be a problem and it may not but I am now not so sure. The 7X57R is about 50K so not that far away. Until I know more please take my earlier statements as possbily too optimistic.

There is one difference in my receiver and his. He had an original Win. 21 20 ga and mine will be 4340 alloy with much higher yield and tensile strength hardened appropriately. His failure mode was most likely from elastic deformation allowing the barrels to pivot on the hinge pin enough to partially unlock. He did not experience plastic deformation though i.e. no permanent change in dimensions. So, I should experience less deformation by the metal properties. However, on close examination of the receiver it is relative thin directly behind the standing breech and on the sides near the standing breech. I have already changed the design to leave much more metal ~1/4 inch directly behind the standing breech and will thicken the side panel (boss)as well. This will add much more cross section to the weakest area. I will leave the shape the same but simply make them thicker. I need to add something here for 21 owners who might have a shotgun made after 1960. At the beginning of the custom shop era Winchester decided that the boss was not needed for strength or integrity of the receiver and that has certainly been proven true for the shotgun. However, I do not believe that to be true for a DR conversion. So, I would highly recommend that you not add a DR set of barrels to a straight sided Winchester 21-----------my opinion.

This is one good example of an advantage for the CAD/CAM approach. The modifications are not that hard to make. It will take considerable experimentation to demonstrate to me that all is safe and that is the most important thing.

Thank you again for the reference to David. It has been very important to me. I welcome any and all comments and advice.

I have made some progress and will post some pictures in a few days.------------Bill

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ad_bfl
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #226522 - 07/03/13 03:45 AM

Hi

New user here and I just found this thread.

Very nice work and ambitious,just some off my head questions.

So if I understand correctly you reverse engineered via 3d scanning a model 21 action, imported those files into BobCad, tweaked them into a parametric model, and am using the CAM capability in BobCad to generate and post the G code which your trying to cleanup?

If I have that somewhat correct, what mill and controller?

My reason for asking is that the "post process" where the generic tool path code is tailored for the machine controller can be buggy/problematic.

If the simulator IS the mill controller vs an external controller that may help, but if you using a simulator outside of the mill motion controller that simulator has to know intimate details of the target controller, which if it is a old mill may be hard to get correct.

I would suggest getting some acrylic plastic and testing on that prior to tool touching those beautiful partial receivers.

Do you or the owner of the mill know GCode? or are you tweaking the cam generation process to fix tool path issues? Gcode is pretty simple, and if you have any programming experience you can learn the basics pretty easily:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCGCodeCourse.htm

Bob who owns that site has done a good job on his tutorials.

You can do a LOT with good fixtures, several zeroing points for the main features of the receiver and hand crafted G code for one offs/small runs.

Creating a parametric model is VERY useful at this stage but if your churning mill time because of buggy G code consider moving up to a better CAM package or coding by hand.

I am glad to help in anyway I can on this, I am going down a similar path but your WAY ahead of me at this point,I am still doing tradeoff designs of my fixtures, tooling and indexing.

BTW:I do not own a CAM package mostly because all I do is one offs for my own business am able to get by with simple hand generated Gcode and macros/functions which I verify in my machine controller, then I cut either air or acrylic prior to steel.

Best Regards
Al

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #226541 - 07/03/13 08:22 AM

If you haven't already done so, you might like to look at pictures showing the design changes made to Winch. 21 by CT Shotgun Manufacturing Co. for their large bore rifle version (they do the more normal 21 version for their smaller bore rifle version, as do you). Though the design change for their bigger bore rifle doesn't look terribly pretty, it reveals where beefing up is needed.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #226990 - 14/03/13 02:06 PM

ad bfi

I will try and answer some of your questions.

"So if I understand correctly you reverse engineered via 3d scanning a model 21 action, imported those files into BobCad, tweaked them into a parametric model, and am using the CAM capability in BobCad to generate and post the G code which your trying to cleanup?"

That is basically correct in that I reverse engineered a Win. 21 but I did make some modifications creating a full 3-D cad file of all the components. We then import portions of those files into Bobcad and generate the G code read by the CNC machine.


"Do you or the owner of the mill know GCode? or are you tweaking the cam generation process to fix tool path issues? Gcode is pretty simple, and if you have any programming experience you can learn the basics pretty easily:"

Yes, G Code is routinely used but there are still anomolies lying deep in the cad code that must be determined during the validation process. You cannot simply load the program, index the item, and expect to have a a perfect copy. You really need to run the code line by line slowly. Remember all the real work is in creating the tooling, fixtures, and debugging the code. Once that is done the machine really will do its job.

"If I have that somewhat correct, what mill and controller?"

HAAS mill and integral controller.

Good luck on your project.

Doublerifle Jack,

Yes, I have seen the Galazan DRs although it was year before last at the Las Vegas gun show where I looked at the heavy caliber version and I didn't study it well. I wish I had now. I know they were going toward a 416 and a 577. I also knew I would not be approaching those. They substantially beefed up the receiver in the area where it is obvious that it is weakest. I agree that it is not especially pretty. They make a 45-70 on the flat side version of the 21 receiver. I think that is really pushing the limits. I will go with the older version with the boss for support. In anything above 45-70 in pressure I will increase the mass of the boss across and above. In addition I will add about 1/4" behind the strikers to really support the bushing and firing pins. Then I will fire a lot of proof loads with careful measurements before and after to ensure I am well within the elastic limits of the receiver. Thank you all for your help.-----Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #226992 - 14/03/13 02:24 PM

A little progress.

We have completed the validation process for the top and sides of the receiver and milled out two of them. The bottoms will be done inconjuction with the trigger plate. We EDM wire cut out the first two trigger plates as you will see in the pictures below. However, as it seems is always the case, the computer that starts up the EDM failed and now we must find a replacement. The next step is to EDM wire cut the other plane of the trigger plate. As you will see below they are cut to shape in one plane but not the other-------------yet. We are dead in the water until the EDM is back in operation. I suppose we could mill off the rest but the EDM is so much faster and better. I will just have to wait--------------again.

This is one side of the receiver fully meeting all requirements. No polishing has been done so you see all the tooling marks.



The other side with just a tiny bit of polishing of the tooling.



The trigger plates EDM wire cut from the host block of 4340 steel alloy.



A shot to show the comparison of the planes.



A picture of the trigger plate to show it relationship to the cut out.



Other side of the trigger plate to show perspective.



Hopefully I will be back in action before too long. I will post more when I have them.-----Bill

Edited by CptCurl (20/03/13 10:09 PM)

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #227016 - 15/03/13 11:58 AM

Bill,

Great to see your progress on this. Persistence is paying off.

You must be getting close to success..............the setbacks are coming more often !!!!!

The great thing about CAD/CAM/CNC is watching what the computer can make the servos do and in turn the mill do.............the worst thing about it is the ivolvement of fickle computers.

You're certainly getting good use out of your EDM, as problematic as it seems to be, it's certainly saving a lot of milling time/milling cutters.

If I'm reading it right you'll be assembling the trigger plate on the action and then machining it along with the underside of the action !!!??? If you can combine this with fixing it with a timed oversize assembly screw it will remove one more process for you.

As you will be producing double rifles and shotguns, and you have a leaning towards mechanisation, will you be using a stock duplicator/pantograph to rough out your stocks ???

I never did manage to make the film clips work. It may be just my technical ineptitude though.

Keep up the good work.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #227030 - 15/03/13 03:25 PM

twobobbwanna,
Yes the EDM is a wonderful tool. It can do amazing things and, as you say, saves a tremendous amount of milling. It actually leaves finished surfaces e.g. the water table. I will finish the other plane of the trigger plate, put it on the action and finish the milling. At least that is the plan now. We will see how it goes. I also need the EDM to cut out the area for the locking lug. It will cut out a rectangle then will finish with the mill. Regarding the stocks, you guessed correctly. I have had a 3-D scan done for the reference stock as well. They will not just be "roughed out" though. Since all the receivers will be identical in the mating surfaces, I can make very precise copies that should fit perfectly. With a little glass bedding we should be done. However, this was done in a "mesh" format and I am having trouble converting that to a useable CNC router code. I haven't bored the readers with this little problem since it seems I have a sufficient number otherwise! I have already made the stock for the 45-70 DR from traditional hand duplicating processes from american black walnut. You saw the forearm earlier in the post. The stock pattern for the shotguns is English straight grip to go with the light weight titanium receivers. If your measure of the number of problems being predictive of progress then I am nearing the end!!! The receiver and trigger plate are the real challenges and I think I now have a success path. The other parts are far more predictable and less complicated. For the steel DRs I will simply use existing forearm shoes, trigger guard and top lever. For the titanium shotguns I will have to make them out of titanium. So as soon as I get the receiver and trigger plate made it will not be long before I can shoot the rifle.

Regarding the film clips, right click on the picture. That should open a list of options. Choose the top one, "Open link" and left click on it. It should direct you to my photobucket and automatically start the video.----------------Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #227033 - 15/03/13 05:11 PM

Bill,

Regarding the locking lug area. In Max Gera's post on building a double rifle he shows a setup where he machines the radial area in the action where the barrel locking lug fits/mates. There is also a bit of video on www.cncguns.com in "Projects" where it shows a special tool cutting the loading ramp on a Sig (???) pistol frame. I'm sure this would be interesting to you once you cut out the window in the frame for the locking underlugs.

Supposing that your'e offering a "custom" fit for your stocks it'll be interesting to see how many files that you save for stock dimensions. It is my guess that it'll be fewer than a dozen. There can only be so many combinations of Drop at Comb, Drop at Heel, Drop at Toe, Cast off, Cast On,pistol grip lengths and diameters. Length of pull/pitch should be able to be readily cut once the stock is off the duplicator. And there is always bending if you need to "tweak" a dimension.

Please note: Custom stockmakers/Gunfitters I'm not trivialising what you do. I think you do magic. I particularly marvel at the inletting, finishing and checkering that you are so good at. And I do realise that there are huge differences in gunfit between long necked, skinny 6'6" fellas to short necked 4'2" .........err busty women.

It'll be great to see you shoot and regulate your own creations Bill.

It's great to be that "fly on the wall" when you get to watch something like this unfold.....so it must be "giddy stuff" to actuall be a part of making it happen.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #227048 - 16/03/13 02:17 AM

Thank you for the kind comments. Regarding the outside radius where the forearm shoe meets the receiver, both of those will be cut on the EDM at precisely the same radius to ensure as good a fit as you can get. You can see that radius on the milled receiver. This is one other area where the EDM cut is final spec. Another is the standing breech. The hinge pin on a Mod 21 is inserted through the side of the receiver and held in place with the cocking lever bolt. Since I will be making the monoblocs from solid stock as well the radius of the locking lug will be exactly the radius of the hinge pin itself. Although I have not seen anyone need to do it, you could make a hinge pin slightly larger or smaller if you needed to tighten up a particular gun. Thank you for the references. I will take a look at them. Hope to get the computer working next week.

I am going to shoot it for sure but Birdhunter50 a.k.a. Bob Hynden is going to regulate it for me. Thank you Bob.

Regarding selling them, I don't know if I will be doing that. I am actually making them for me and my family i.e. a set for my wife, our son, grandson, and daughter. When that is done perhaps I will see if anyone wants one. I don't know and haven't done any marketing. The reason I chose the Winchester 21, was not because it was the most popular or the most likely to sell. I am doing it just because it is what I like and that is enough for me.-------Bill

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aromakr
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #227055 - 16/03/13 06:50 AM

Bill:
I've been following this post from the beginning. Only wish I had the skills to do something like this.
I wanted to relay a story to you regarding the Win 21. Many years ago an old German gunsmith friend of mind had a fine cased Win 21 with two sets of barrels, one 12 gau the second was 405 Win and were suppose to be factory made. Have you ever heard of a factory made Win 21 with rifle barrels?
Bob

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: aromakr]
      #227060 - 16/03/13 08:27 AM

aromakr,
Yes, I have heard of them and seen them. In 1937 the Winchester Research and Development Department built the first double rifle in 405 Winchester. They only built a few because they couldn't get them to regulate to the accuracy that John Olin had specified at 200 yards. The Winchester 21 organization was so oriented to shotguns that rifles simply were not very important to them. Afterall they had the Model 70 rifle and everyone loved it. They just dropped the idea like they did for several prototypes. Do you know what happened to the set?

I see you are from Montana. I have a ranch north of Lewistown near Winifred.------------Bill

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aromakr
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #227067 - 16/03/13 10:59 AM

Bill:
I live in the Bitterroot valley, and have a number of friends in the Lewistown area.
I don't know what happened to that set, Budd had a son that had no interest in Guns or shooting. I'm sure when he passed his collection was just dollar sign's to his son and he had some choice one of a kind pieces. I had bought several really nice Sharpe's rifles from him in the early 60's. Just wish I had been smart enough to hang on to them myself. One was a 74 sporting rifle that had been originally sold to Sir Henry St.John Halford that was Capt. of the British Creedmoor team. Oh well such is life.
Thanks for the response.
Bob

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: aromakr]
      #227200 - 18/03/13 02:23 PM

Bill,

The radius that I referred to is where the underlugs engage in the action body. You mentioned that you where going to cut the windows with your EDM...the radius is within these windows.

Now that you've gone this far, and the fact that you're geared up to make 10 or a dozen, it'd be a waste to allow all that production capability/knowledge/expense to be shelved.

I understand that the legal implications and our litigious (if that's how you spell prone to suing) society may put you off..........but you can't have too many good s x s shotguns and double rifles.

By the time you make up your "family guns" you'll have the bugs worked out to the point where production won't be so daunting.

Or perhaps you've got, in your programming/jigs/tooling/machines, a saleable product to somebody who may wish to start such an enterprise.

Whatever happens it's been great to be "along for the ride".

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #229183 - 22/04/13 10:42 AM

Bill,

How goes the battle ???

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #229373 - 28/04/13 02:15 PM

Thank you for asking. The war rages and three battles have been lost but the war continues. We have gotten the computer or its parts back three times all which have failed. The fourth time should be tomorrow. I have made no progress since my last post but hope to soon. Technology is great until it controls your life. As soon as I make more progress I will post.---------------Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #229412 - 29/04/13 10:42 AM

Bill,

Sorry to hear about your ongoing computer "infarction".

However you must be getting too close to success to suit the "gods of projects" as they're laying on the obstructions thick and fast.

Computers are great while they're giving you the result that you're after...........but when they're not they are very frustrating.

Keep plugging away Bill......you'll beat it !!!!!

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #231136 - 13/06/13 01:42 PM

Bill ..........you're killing me !!!

I'm obviously praying to the wrong god for the success of this project !!!!!

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Ckhobart
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #231775 - 28/06/13 07:24 AM

Leaving us in suspense!

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Ckhobart
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #233106 - 29/07/13 04:09 PM

So, exciting?
Come on

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #235347 - 09/09/13 03:42 PM

Bill,

Any progress ???

Post some pictures..........throw in some words !!!! anything !!!

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #240609 - 14/01/14 03:48 PM

If you have been following this project you know I ran into computer problems on the EDM wire cutter at a critical time. To make a long story short I lost 6 months of time with no machine. It is now working and I am again making progress. I will post some pictures in a couple of weeks. I am reprogramming the receiver code to allow about 3/8 of an inch of steel behind the firing pin hole to increase the strength of this inherently weak area. Not a problem for shotguns but it is for DRs. Don't give up on me. I will finish this even if I am now counting it in years!!!! I just didn't want to bore you when I didn't have good progress.

Side note: I see my friend Nikitas has posted some of his great work on his double. For those who don't know him, he is one of the most informed gun writers you will ever read and now a designer as well.--------Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #240666 - 15/01/14 11:46 AM

Great to see you back Bill.

Looking forward to seeing the photos.

I stopped commenting on how long other people's projects were taking when I did a stocktake of my own.

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Ckhobart
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #241558 - 01/02/14 01:03 PM

Glad you're back in action chief. Keep us up to speed!

Ahh, I'd love to have my own CnC rig. Someday maybe.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #242554 - 17/02/14 02:19 PM

If you look back at the progress on the receiver you will see where I had to stop until the EDM was back in service. Since it is now operational I am making some progress as you can see below.



You can see the watertable has been wired out to accept the barrel lugs.



Here the trigger plate has also been wired to fit the receiver.



I was pretty happy with the precision of the fit of the trigger plate in the receiver. There was no filing done to facilitate the fit.



The top tang is made separate from the receiver to help in machining. This is as it comes out of the wire cutter.



This shows the fit in the receiver. I am pretty happy with that as well.



This is just a side shot of the same configuration.

I'll send more pictures as I make progress. Thank you for following my ups and downs.
Bill

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:52 PM)

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #242629 - 18/02/14 12:24 PM

Great to see you back in action Bill.

While your top tang setup will give you great alignment to tig (?) weld it in place will it cause you grief to recut the bore etc of the toplever ??? or are you just going to set it back on the jig/mill and run that part of the program again ???

I'm interested in seeing pictures of the top tang welded on and the cleanup.

Fantastic progress. Keep "plugging" away.

It's a pleasure to see your project unfold.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #242630 - 18/02/14 01:03 PM

The original scan was done without a tang but did have the hole bored in the receiver. So I do have a reference point for the top lever hole alignment relative to the receiver. The plans are to tig weld the upper tang in place and when I have the receiver hardened it should essentially make a homogeneous metal joint since both the tang and receiver are from the same alloy. Good question and I worried about it some.-----------Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #242779 - 20/02/14 02:34 PM

A little more progress. I am trying to bring all the components along to ensure that the programs are completely debugged. This is a picture of the trigger guard. I have made both pistol grip and English. This is the English one. This is just as it comes out of the EDM wire cutter.



I am also working on the forearm shoe. This is a first cut showing an original shoe (model) and how it looks coming out of the EDM. We will now do a second cut that will do the radius and remove excess metal.------------Bill



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:53 PM)

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #242787 - 20/02/14 04:43 PM

Bill,

You're a "bloody legend", as we say here, by exhibiting so much progress in this project.

But I'll complicate things further for you.............now that you're creating miracles why not go one step further and include ejectors?.

Southgate ejectors are the measure but you might want to stick to whatever was "Winchester appropriate" for the time.

Either way you've made great progress and are seeing the benefits of sticking with this project through the hard times and I'm greatfull that you've chosen to include us in it.

And that's not "pocket p*ssing" .............. which is another saying we have here.

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #242826 - 21/02/14 08:05 AM

Wonderful to see so much progress. Well done Bill.

I too am impatient to see the top tang welding. Right now we are having a debate with the machinist on modifying the design to a split arrangement and welding the trigger plate after machining for economy and convenience. Glad you will provide some pioneering knowledge and experience on that step.

And that trigger guard looks good too. Designing a trigger guard is much more difficult than the shape suggests.

The two small holes inside the action are for the sear spring screws?

Looking forward to the next phase with baited breath.

Edited by Shotgunlover (21/02/14 08:07 AM)

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #242911 - 23/02/14 03:52 AM

Nice work! Are you using 4340 or mild for guards and accessories?

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Dumprat]
      #242930 - 23/02/14 10:59 AM

I'll try and answer the questions above. First Twobobbwana, I will have ejectors. I already have them in the barrels earlier in the posts. I just need to bore out the receiver to match.

Shotgunlover, yes indeed the two holes are for the screws that hold the sear springs in place

Dumprat, actually the trigger guard above is grade V titanium 6al-4v but I am using the same 4340 for the guards and accessories. I do plan on using 4140 for additional monoblocs though to match the barrels or 416 stainless if I use stainless barrels. You really don't need 4340 for the guards and such but I thought it might match better when blued. I might switch though to 4140. It is easier to mill. The reason for the titanium is to make light weight shotguns. I will not use on DRs though.--------Bill

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #242933 - 23/02/14 11:52 AM

The TI should hold up great. Wonder how it will polish up? Again, nice work.

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Dumprat]
      #242973 - 24/02/14 11:47 AM

Bill,

as you are attaching the top tang in the manner that you are would you consider doing an extended top tang over the nose of the comb in order to strengthen the stock through the wrist ??

If I recall you had previously some concerns about the strength of the stock through the wrist.

With ejectors, extended top tang and a trigger guard extended to a trap pistol grip cap you'd certainly have a "burger with the works".

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #243707 - 13/03/14 05:21 AM

Gorgeous.

Lord I wish I had a CNC mill

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Ckhobart]
      #246849 - 02/05/14 02:54 PM

I have made a little more progress on the receiver. The next thing I needed to do was to mill off the excess metal on the radius of the receiver sides and the trigger plate. The trigger plate is just as it came out of the EDM wire cutter. I am going to try and attach a video below. You should be able to click on the arrow and play. I will try one and if it works then do another post with others to show how the CNC does this job. If it doesn't work then I do have still pictures as backup. Here goes-------Bill



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:54 PM)

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #246851 - 02/05/14 03:21 PM

Okay, that seemed to work but there was not an arrow. It is a video however, so all you need to do is click on the video and it will start. I am going to add about three more below to show progress as the mill progresses down the receiver. When it completed its cycle there will be only about 2 thousands of metal left to file and sand off to be finished. The flat surface of the trigger plate is itself only about 2 thousands too thick. You will see that the mill barely takes the color off it. Most of the metal comes off of the radius where the sides of the receiver meet the trigger plate. I will post more later. It is getting bed time here.-------------Bill







Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:55 PM)

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Shotgunlover
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #246883 - 03/05/14 03:35 AM

Nice progress Bill.

EDM wire cutting is such a wonderful invention! This project as well as Ron Vella's 6.5 monobloc show what the process can do. I used it for the trigger guard and internal lock parts. The first batch had been laser cut, leaving way too many burn marks on the perimeter of the cut. the EDM leaves a smoother and easier to finish surface, as seen in these photos. The forend iron work is really impressive. Doing all those contoured cuts in one go is amazing!

Can't wait to see more!

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #246896 - 03/05/14 07:43 AM

Thank you and, yes, the EDM is wonderful. Not having it available at the critical time cost me nine months delay. Most of the surfaces come out to spec without further finishing.

Attached below are more of the CNC cutting. We did two passes all below are the 2nd pass except the first one. If you are bored by now on these videos just skip since it does get pretty repetitive. Again, all you need to do is click on the picture for it to start.
Bill















Edited by CptCurl (04/05/14 08:58 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #246965 - 05/05/14 01:10 AM

Two quick videos on the jig and removal of the receiver from the jig just in case someone would like to see how it is held in the mill for indexing.-----------Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #255480 - 20/10/14 12:06 PM

Bill,

It's been 4 1/2 months now.

Have you got anything more for us ??

Like your jig. Puts square corners back on the action and makes it easier to hang onto in the vice.

You got the video clips sorted out. Good work.

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #262175 - 13/03/15 12:04 PM

Bill,

How are you doing ??

Any more progress that you can share with us ??

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #262214 - 14/03/15 08:27 AM


It must be lovely to have that sort of talent... my Son is into this field but not into gunsmithing unfortunately.

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #271179 - 01/10/15 11:03 AM

Bill,

Hope you are well and just too busy shooting your new doubles to have posted.

Please post some photos so we can see what you've been up to.

I'm keen to see you succeed in this grand endeavour.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #275514 - 23/12/15 03:20 PM

Guys,
I am embarrassed to say I have not made more progress. I seem to go in "fits and starts" but I have not given up. I really hope to make progress just after the 1st of the year. This has been a very complicated project but I have the hardest hard work done as documented above. I now have the g-code validated for the receiver and have made most of the other parts. I will post as soon as I have something other than hollow promises.
Bill

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #275546 - 24/12/15 05:19 AM

Take your time Bill and work on it only when you want to work on it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: DarylS]
      #275558 - 24/12/15 11:21 AM

Thank you and have a wonderful holiday season. Perhaps the new year will bring this to a close.
Bill

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #276430 - 11/01/16 11:51 AM

Bill,

The pictures you posted show that you're offering more than "hollow promises".

You've made great progress on a complicated project.

Great to hear that this project is still "in play".

Wishing you well in your endeavours.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #279939 - 28/03/16 06:03 AM

Hello again. I have managed to re-start my project and making some headway. I believe I said in some earlier part of this that I needed to modify the receiver and add more mass in the standing breech area. The original Mod. 21 has 150 thousands of thickness there and that is not enough in my view to either allow for a bushing for the firing pin and add strength for any plastic deformation. I think that is the main problem that the gunsmith in Colorado had with his set of 7x57R barrels unhinging. Of course he used an original receiver. As we started milling we left 550 thousands for the standing breech only to find that even a modified hammer would hit the butt stock. So we took out an additional 100 thousands. This still leaves 450 thousands. Then we needed to redesign the hammer since the original hammer was a single integral hammer and firing pin. I have posted below the redesigned hammer. I believe it will work. Anyway some pictures:

This is the starting for the back of the receiver.



The raw receiver next to an original Winchester 21.



Setup in the CNC mill making the first hole for the locking lug.



Milling out the back.



I will post more as I make progress.
Bill

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:20 PM)

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #279982 - 29/03/16 02:09 AM

Dear Setterguy,
Keep going, I think you have figured out a very important part of the equation and are very close to success. I hope you have good luck with it from here out. Please do keep us informed of your progress. Bob

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #279996 - 29/03/16 06:44 AM

Birdhunter,

Thank you for the encouragement. Yes, getting the code correct for this end was a challenge but I think it is correct now. For those of you anticipating do such a project please keep in mind there is a lot of work between scanning a piece and correcting the errors to get into solid works and then the G-Code for the CNC. CNCs are great but only as good as the code that goes in. Below is the completed receiver from the end work.

The one on the right is an original Winchester 21 receiver, the middle what was just milled, and the left one ready to mill.



In this picture you can see the difference in the amount of metal left in the middle one compared to the one on the original on the right. Should add a lot of strength.



I promised to show a picture of the re-designed hammer but forgot to attach. Here it is:



Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:22 PM)

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280014 - 29/03/16 11:13 AM

Here are a couple of videos of the process if someone would like to see a CNC in action.
Bill

http://vid1094.photobucket.com/albums/i442/bdshipp/100_1024_zps4pbqzt1h.mp4

http://vid1094.photobucket.com/albums/i442/bdshipp/100_1025_zpsccxnfqqd.mp4

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280015 - 29/03/16 11:50 AM

Bill,

Welcome back I've been looking forward to your return.

Great to see your progress.

Yep CNC is not just "plug and play". You just can't scan something, put some material in the vise, a tool in the spindle and push the button ............... to come back moments later to find a completed part.

I'm in the process of learning this myself.

It still is "white man's magic" though.

Among other things a cnc mill has to be told where the material is, how long cutters are, speeds, feeds etc so that it can apply the "technogeewizery" to effect.

Computers are pretty dumb. They must be told what to do..........and if you tell them to do the wrong thing. That's what you'll get.

Verification of dimensions, machining paths, offsets and protocols all have to be right otherwise you'll end up with scrap.

Great work Bill. I applaud your progress while deploring my lack of cnc progress.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #280218 - 03/04/16 10:23 AM

Thought maybe someone would like to see one of the advantages of a CNC EDM wire cutter. The picture below shows the original Winchester 21 hammer, the redesigned one cut out of aluminum and in the middle a "bunch" of hammers directly out of the EDM wire. Now all that is needed is to "slice" off as many as you like. It was critical to do the aluminum one first to ensure that it cleared all the other parts and would be on face with the backside of the standing breech.-----Bill



Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:23 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280227 - 03/04/16 05:10 PM

A wire cutter is a fantastic thing.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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4al2
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #280239 - 03/04/16 09:26 PM

Do you do any shotgun conversion?

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: 4al2]
      #280270 - 04/04/16 01:02 AM

4al2,
Not conversions per se but what I am doing in parallel to the DR is making a titanium 21 shotgun. the only difference between the two is that the shotgun will have the standing breech the normal thickness and the original integral hammer and firing pin. Of course the material is different as well with the DR being 4340 steel and the shotgun grade V titanium. I am working out all the code on the DR before I put the more expensive titanium through it. I started this whole thing thinking I would make one with interchangeable barrels for both shotgun and DR. Well into the project I decided that the standing breech was not thick enough and I believed I really needed a bushed firing pin. A ruptured cap would do really bad things inside the receiver. I will try shotgun barrels on the DR to see how they work. They may be fine but I just don't know yet. The only part I haven't made thus far is the monobloc. You can see from the early part of this thread I used a donor set of barrels for the monobloc. I do have the initial code for a monobloc but haven't had the time to test in the EDM. I will though.

I made the most common mistake for first time builders and that is the contour and therefore the weight of the barrels. The good news is that as 45-70 they will be a pleasure to shoot I think but a nightmare to carry. The balance is likely to be pretty bad as well. However, you learn as you go and that is a big part of the whole thing. I have already bought reamers from Ron Vella to make a 6.5x57R set of barrels. So, in the future a new set in this beautiful little caliber is at least in my mind. I have the barrels, reamers and monobloc code. All I need is the rest of the stuff i.e. time.

In the very beginning this project was only to be about making a titanium 21 20ga shotgun. I blame the dedicated and talented group on this forum for getting me into the DRs. I guess I am easily diverted though. Anyway, the DR then became the focus with the shotgun lagging behind. This is a pretty long answer to your short question. I should have just said no-----Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280626 - 09/04/16 11:35 AM

I am getting down to last of the milling on the receiver. Here are the to-do items:

I have to cut angle cuts in the watertable to accept the barrel lugs. The cuts require tw setups, one from the top and one from the bottom. They are a little hard to see but if you look at the original I think you can see the angle cuts.



The floor plate requires some milling to shape as you can see below.



The front of the water table must have the holes milled out. See below:



Finally, the upper tang must be milled to fit into the receiver.



I think with the above completed the receiver will be ready to polish, harden, and try the internals. It is about time.----Bill

Edited by CptCurl (21/11/16 10:25 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #280886 - 14/04/16 04:35 PM

Wow, you sure are doing a fine job with this build!
It's coming along very well indeed.
Please keep the photos and description coming.

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #280942 - 15/04/16 06:32 AM

You are the master of the wire cutter. Great work.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #283493 - 06/06/16 10:45 AM

Bill,

Anymore to show us ??

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #287292 - 02/09/16 10:37 AM

Bill ?????

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #290475 - 18/11/16 11:31 AM

Bill,

Hope all is well with you and your project.

Have you got any more to show us??

between your project, and that of Dewey's, we're getting two approaches to two great projects - one utilising traditional hand methods and your's utilising more modern technology.

Both great projects. Fascinating to watch the progress of each.

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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #294541 - 31/01/17 11:44 AM

Bill,

Have you got any more to update us on ???

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #299775 - 28/04/17 02:27 PM

Hello again, I have had to have some plumbing done in my heart but am back to full form now. I will post some more progress in a day or two. Thanks for bearing with me on this project.---------Bill

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #299872 - 01/05/17 07:44 AM

Please see some pictures of recent progress on my 45-70 project.

The water table cuts are now complete including drilling for the cocking levers. You will see one is completed and one is not.



You will note above that the bushing holes have not been cut in. They are now finished and tapped. See below.



The tang has been cut, shaped, and installed. The hole for the top lever has been drilled.



You can see below that it has been welded in place.



Top lever fits very nicely but will need a little filing but not much.







Need to now turn my attention to the floor plate. I will report back soon.----Bill



Edited by CptCurl (03/05/17 09:11 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #299888 - 01/05/17 07:00 PM

Great work. Well done.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #299934 - 02/05/17 01:51 PM

Waidmannsheil,

Thank you. I hope to have some more pictures later this week.-------Bill

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twobobbwana
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #299938 - 02/05/17 02:41 PM

Great to see you back Bill.

Good progress. Great project.

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Setterguy
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Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: twobobbwana]
      #299940 - 02/05/17 03:07 PM

Twobobbwana,

Thank you good to be back. I am going to try and finish this thing up.------Bill

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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Winchester 21 DR in 45-70 [Re: Setterguy]
      #299998 - 03/05/17 09:12 PM

Very well done!

Curl

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