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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
Posts: 161
Loc: norway

Merkel 5E - anyone have any information?
#196559 - 13/12/11 01:15 AM

First of all, hello from Norway! In the pursuit of knowledge of double rifles, I ended up here

I too have been bitten and infected by the prospect of Double rifle ownership!
I am currently contemplating pulling the trigger on a DR, but I struggle to find any information regarding the 5E model.

Does anyone have any information regarding this model? It was produced in 1980 in what was back then Eastern Germany. Ejectors and in 9,3x74R caliber.

The seller is not that knowledgeable about this particular model and forwarded me to the arms dealer who sold it to him a few years ago. When asked about how this compares to the 141 ( the only one im familiar with) he told me that the 141 is a significantly "simpler" model ( his words).

I told him I was also considering a Chapuis, to which the arms dealer said he has had many and he would never choose one over this merkel. Decent weapons but not in the same category, at least not the models within my price range ( up to 6000-8000 dollars)

Have a look at the pictures!

http://www.finn.no/finn/torget/tilsalgs/annonse?finnkode=31650593

Regards!

( The price is equivalent to about 5000 US dollars.. )

Edited by Fontainebleu (13/12/11 01:21 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196563 - 13/12/11 03:13 AM

Looks like a pre-war gun. Beautiful! I would buy it over a new gun of any make. Getting a new Chapuis built like that one is would cost you a heck of a lot more than $ 5000.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: mehulkamdar]
#196564 - 13/12/11 04:18 AM

The original wood shaft has been replaced by a new one - links - in turkish walnut. According to the arms dealer its beyond what you would get from the factory..it does look lovely..
I tried googling "merkel 5E", but nothing comes up. Bit strange..

Edited by Fontainebleu (13/12/11 04:27 AM)

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Igorrock
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196569 - 13/12/11 05:32 AM

Here is an another MERKEL 5E, sold 2006 in Widforss auction in Stockholm.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by CptCurl (14/12/11 10:47 PM)

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
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Loc: norway

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Igorrock]
#196570 - 13/12/11 06:50 AM

Yes, but that was a 7x57 caliber.

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FATBOY404
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196574 - 13/12/11 07:21 AM

First of all,welcome.
Dont know anything about them but they look nice.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
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Loc: norway

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: FATBOY404]
#196577 - 13/12/11 07:31 AM

Thanks fatboy! I havent actually pulled the trigger (pun intended) on it yet though, it that or a Krieghoff classic or a chapuis! Hard to decide really! Caliber 9,3x74R

Edited by Fontainebleu (13/12/11 07:34 AM)

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AkMike
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196589 - 13/12/11 11:41 AM

You won't have any problems with a Chapuis! They are a fine rifle. BUT,,,, this Merkel has some fine wood on it, with the scope and claw mounts and a case it's tempting to try this one.
Will the dealer let you try it out if you buy the ammo? Any chance to talk to the prior owner about it w/o discussing the price? (The dealer wants his shape too)

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: AkMike]
#196612 - 13/12/11 08:58 PM

Its not actually sold by a dealer, the seller just referred me to him for additional information. and the dealer knows this rifle well - he sold it to this customer 4 years ago. According to him, a little extra powder was needed in the cartridges to get a satisfactory accurancy. With that ammo, it now has two shots within 40 mm ( 4 cm ) on 100 meters. Im sure he will let me try it, Im still in the pondering phase - but I must say this proposal is looking more and more interesting. included is also 100 cartridges custom loaded to this rifle, there is a guy custom loading for this DR specifically, Im sure there is no problem getting him to load for me also..

According to the dealer, this guy paid ALOT more for it than he is now selling it for, and he has also slapped on a claw mount and swapped the existing Zeiss for a Leopold Europa ( the latter choice does seem a bit odd to me but hey.. ).

Edited by Fontainebleu (13/12/11 09:34 PM)

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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
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Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196613 - 13/12/11 09:40 PM

Hi Fontainebleu,

Firstly welcome to the forum, that is a very interesting Merkel and well worth the dollars if it shoots as well as you were told it did.

A couple of things I noticed was that you are getting an Emmebi case which is currently worth about 320 Euro the second thing is the later Merkel use Recknagel Q.D. Pivot Mounts with both the bases already on the rifle but this one has 'Claw' mounts which as you stated was 'Slapped' onto the rifle by the gunsmith. Claw mounts can not be 'Slapped' onto a rifle, they are very fiddly to get right. It may be an earlier Pre War model as mentioned. Why not ask 'Merkel' they would keep records as to when that serial number was manufactured.

I owned a Chapuis 'Brouse' in .375H&H which is there African Model and a first class weapon. The 9.3x74R (and smaller calibers)was always made on a smaller frame size and was always a cheaper model and as with all of the Chapuis Double Rifles, they have 2 'Cut Outs' with infills screwed into the rib so that the Recknagel bases could be mounted without a problem.

Your Merkel seems to have a higher grade timber on the stocks and a lot more engraving than on a standard 140A as you know. So let's see how it shoots and I would suggest that it be a part of the purchase agreement that the complete load data is supplied before settlement as if the guy who currently does the reloads gets hit by a bus, there goes your reloads.

I hope that this is of assistance,

Cheers for now,

Jeff Gray

.

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Fontainebleu
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#196614 - 13/12/11 09:55 PM

He he, what a refreshing and informative post. Thank you for replying! Sorry for the term " slapped on", I am not that well-educated in terms of gun terminology, I just try to explain the best I can :P The claw mount has been fitted in 2007 at the cost of nearly 1500-2000 dollars by a Norwegian weaponssmith according to the arms dealer, by the current seller. He knows this because he is often kept up to date or consulted by his current customers. So the claw mount is not factory fitted as far as I know, however the weapon smith who has performed the job is considered the #1 smith here in norway, so its probably of satisfactory quality.

According to the seller the Double rifle is produced in 1980, but you seem to think it is even older? Mechanically, it is described as " as new".

The current owner is a Links shooter, and replaced the original stock by a new one made from Turkish Walnut, and in links. Suits me fine, since I am Links myself and used Links DR`s arent exactly common. They turn up on in the classifieds maybe once a year.. the point about getting the loading data is a good one, Ill be sure to write that down behind my ear!

Aside from that, it somewhat vexes me that there seem to be absolutely NO information whatsoever about the model 5E. Maybe I should send a mail to merkel...

Edited by Fontainebleu (13/12/11 09:56 PM)

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underlever
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Reged: 01/02/07
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196618 - 13/12/11 10:17 PM

G'day Fontainebleu,
looks like a nice rifle and if it is as new, there really isn't much to worry about. Merkels are very well made. The date when it was made is easy to find, it will be stamped on the barrel flats. Look for a 3 or 4 diget number that doesn't seem to match anything else. If it was made in 1980, it will end in 80. Example is if June 1980, it will read, 680. December would be 1280.
Regards,
Ron.

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
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Loc: norway

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: underlever]
#196619 - 13/12/11 10:21 PM

excellent to hear. I think i have narrowed it down to this one or a newer Krieghoff Classic 9,3x74R. The Krieghoff will probably be around 2000 dollars more..

What would be your choice?

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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member

Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196622 - 13/12/11 10:41 PM

Hi Fontainebleu,

Firstly, the age was not my idea, it was in an earlier post but as I did say, ASK Merkel but underleaver knows his stuff.

In my opinion about the Krieghoff, I was always taught the following saying.: "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing" so I will say nothing.....

In this case, Merkel then Chapuis, END STORY

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.

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Fontainebleu
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#196626 - 13/12/11 10:48 PM

Alrighty jeff! Cheers buddy!

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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
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Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196627 - 13/12/11 10:52 PM

Your welcome and good luck, your now infected with a 'Fatal' disease, Double Rifles...

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
Posts: 161
Loc: norway

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#196677 - 14/12/11 08:22 AM

Got some more info from the seller now, and he invited me to test shoot it.

"New RWS cartridges have been used , Lapua Mega 286 g, N140 – 59 gr and CCI hood. This load yielded the best results, all shots within 3 inches at 100 meters. I have only shot about 30-40 rounds with the weapon. The serial number for the gun is 18225."

3 inches at 100 meters, is that satisfactory accurancy would you say?

Edited by CptCurl (14/12/11 10:47 PM)

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
Posts: 161
Loc: norway

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196678 - 14/12/11 09:16 AM

After some more shameless internet browsing I stumbled upon this thread:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=133412

10000 circa 1920
15654 8/1927
17012 1929
18914 3/1931
21849 1935 (Added by montenegrin - Febr. 9, 2009)
34874 12/1951
36582 12/1952
40496 1956
48181 1958
59826 1/1964
71829 1969
77667 1971
107321 5/1987

So my "educated guess" is that my Merkel #21849 was probably made in 1933 or 1934.
-Jani

So this one is 18225 - Could it be a gun from 1930? Some of the guys in this thread suggested it was a "pre-war" gun - canny accurate in their guessing if thats the case.

The seller probably reckons 18 is 81 backwards and thus stated " production year 1980".

If its that old, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

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kuduae
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Posts: 1799
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196682 - 14/12/11 10:08 AM

No use of speculating about any "pre-war" make! It is all in the proofmarks: That "N over pick and sole " was in use in the German Democratic Republic from 1974 to 1991 (German reunification). Additionally, the proofdate is clearly legible: 480 stands for April 1980. So the gun is dated exactly,little use to delve into serial numbers and style.

Edited by kuduae (14/12/11 10:12 AM)

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Fontainebleu
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Reged: 10/12/11
Posts: 161
Loc: norway

Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: kuduae]
#196683 - 14/12/11 10:14 AM

Thanks for clearing that up!

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xausa
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: kuduae]
#196696 - 14/12/11 11:46 AM

Axel,

Any comments on the quality of the Ernst-Thälmann-Werk Merkel products?

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Igorrock]
#196722 - 14/12/11 02:39 PM

Quote:

Here is an another MERKEL 5E, sold 2006 in Widforss auction in Stockholm.

I would say the Mod 5E is the same as the later model designation the 140E-1. I have one of the 140E-1 rifles chambered for 9.3X74R and it is a very dependable and accutate rifle and certainly worth more than $5000 USD IMO!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by CptCurl (14/12/11 10:48 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: Fontainebleu]
#196729 - 14/12/11 03:02 PM

Quote:

According to the dealer, this guy paid ALOT more for it than he is now selling it for, and he has also slapped on a claw mount and swapped the existing Zeiss for a Leopold Europa ( the latter choice does seem a bit odd to me but hey.. ).

You are probably aware of this, but ... some DRs are regulated for open sights. When adding a scope, the regulation may no longer 'work' and it may need to be re-regulated for the scope.

Some rifle's regulation will still function with the open sights and the scope.

Not an exact science.

One possible reason for swapping a Zeiss and instead using a Leupold, is the Leupold scope may be lighter.

If the scope has affected the regulation, they may have thought a lighter scope will improve the result.

If you can test shoot it, that will be a good way to find out. Make sure the bullets aren't crossing either.

Quote:

Got some more info from the seller now, and he invited me to test shoot it.

3 inches at 100 meters, is that satisfactory accurancy would you say?

With a scope to aid accuracy, 3 inches from a 9.3mm doesn't sound very good to me.

But if shooting moose, red and fallow deer, boar and similar sized animals, at 100 to 150 metres doesn't sound like a big problem. If shooting longer ranges, I would zero the scope for one of the barrels. Both will work at short ranges, one will work at longer ranges.

Some say the above is foolish, but it is practical too. Some old DRs had one barrel sighted for longer ranges too.

3 inches though for me is not the 40 mm you were told elsewhere.

I like that rifle. Would prefer it over a Chapuis or Krieghoff. Test shooting will help you make a decision.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: NitroX]
#196738 - 14/12/11 05:54 PM

Hi Fontainebleu,

I would never think of the 9.3x74R as a Bench Rest rifle but as John has indicated the scope can make a difference to the regulation outcome.

In a previous post I mentioned that Merkel now fit their smaller caliber rifles with Recknagel bases so that the strain on the metal is relieved / compensated for during regulation. Now to be a real pain, as John said 40mm is not that good at 100meters but where each of the bullets land is also very important. Does the Right barrel shoot 20mm to the left and visa versa for the Left barrel (Crossing) and or one barrel shooting higher than the other.

Don't forget that the 'Claw' mounts were installed 'After' the regulation and by that fact of machining of the rib 'Stress' is created in the metal, this is nothing to do with the Gunsmiths ability it's Physics.

I would suggest that the rifle is "Tested" at 100 meters with both Open Sights and then the Scope. Mark each shot and from which barrel it was fired and the round used to get that result as you have been given different Ammo & Reloads info so now is the time to do a thorough test.

If all goes to plan and what you have been told by the owner is correct that's fine but if it seems like there is a problem and the Owner and he starts 'Tip Toeing' around your taking to much time or using to much ammo I would suggest that there may be more to the story and I would 'Walk Away'

I am sorry to be negative but there is a lot of doubles that just don't perform irrespective of what you do.

Good Luck and Cheers for Now,

Jeff Gray

.

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Fontainebleu
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Re: Merkel 5E - anyone have any information? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#196750 - 14/12/11 09:32 PM

Alot of replies here now, great! These are still murky waters for a DR-rookie such as myself.
I have a Blaser R93 6.5x55 with a leupold and a Lamber shotgun, so this is quite a step up on everything and as such I want as much info I can get!

The current owner said "all shots within 3 inches" at 100 meters, but in 5 years of ownership he has fired 30-40 shots total, whereas the weapons dealer who sold him this weapon has been in business for 40 years knows this rifle well as the owner and has been kept up to date on this weapon, stated 40 mm at 100 meters ( and he has no financial interest in this weapon anymore, he is just a nice guy. I spoke with him on an hour on the phone even if he knew I wouldnt buy anything, genuinely nice guy and double rifle enthusiast) so it might be the current owner who are confusing stats.

As for the regulation, I have sent him a mail now asking if the rifle is regulated with the new leupold aimsight, with open sights or with both.

If its only regulated with the Leupold sight, that is fine with me tbh. its a 1.25-4.20, so as such I can find most game inside the scope :P

Edited by Fontainebleu (14/12/11 10:15 PM)

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