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NitroX
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New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore
#194053 - 18/11/11 07:44 PM

At a recent auction I acquired the following 10-bore Westley Richards Double Rifle.

Following are some photographs posted in 2004 of the rifle. Seeing they are very good, I thought I'd start with these.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=14952&an=0&page=103&vc=1

WESTLEY RICHARDS
170 New Bond St.
LONDON

A 10 bore, 5 Dram load Black Powder DB hammered top lever < Bar-In-Wood .> Express rifle, percussion styled hammers and fences, opening Westley Richards top lever early style C bolting extension lock up. Safety bolts for locking hammers.. Barrels 28 inch, with excellent clean shiny and well defined rifling. Flat file cut rib with 4 lay down sight leaves graduated from 50 to 200 yards., Silver bead foresight and sling eye. A new authentic style pistol grip stock with cheek rest, steel grip cap, sling eye, Silver oval, new forend, Anson & Deeley forend latch. Good coverage of Westley Richards fine scroll, and an Indian lion depicted on bow of trigger guard L.O.P 14 3/4 ins. to Silvers anti recoil pad. Weight 11 1/4lbs.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (19/11/11 05:00 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194054 - 18/11/11 07:46 PM

Per one of NE's members whom enquired to Westley Richards for information of the gun:

Quote:

The gun was built as a 10 bore in 1879, for WC Wood Esq. on behalf of P. Orr & Sons, Madras, India.

Thanks very much for sharing this information.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroX
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194055 - 18/11/11 07:55 PM

Some photos of the barrels flats.

Left barrel

Right barrel

What does the "11" stand for?

Any information on the proofs would be appreciated. Thanks.

***

Using a vernier caliper the muzzles measure out at about 0.75+ which is a bit small for a 10-bore. Is it a "11-bore"? Does such a thing exist?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Sville
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194057 - 18/11/11 08:02 PM

Very nice rifle!! It´s a pity in Sweden we are only allowed to have six rifles and shotguns. There are so many rifles I would like to buy!!!! /S

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NitroX
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: Sville]
#194061 - 18/11/11 08:47 PM

The express sights.

Another question for experts. Is this 10-bore designed for both shot and ball?

Not a good photo. Will have to try to get a better one.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (18/11/11 08:50 PM)

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controlled_feed
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194063 - 18/11/11 09:18 PM

John

What did you use to take the photos of the barrel flats?

CF

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I was born 100 years too late

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tinker
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: controlled_feed]
#194075 - 19/11/11 12:20 AM

So cool!

No problem believing it's an 11-bore, what are the chamber measurements?
10-bore brass with 11-bore projectile..?

My WR has a cat on the trigger guard too.
I doubt they were thinking shot/ball, the all-folding sights likely were to facilitate 'point-blank' shooting.

Shoot it!
Can't wait to hear how it goes.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroX
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: tinker]
#194077 - 19/11/11 12:47 AM

Tinker

It will be a long process to get shooting unless I am lucky.

I can't even buy black powder in this state from a black powder specialist gun shop as transporting it is difficult (legally) in commercial quantities. So will pick up some interstate or see if someone can bring some over for me.

Brass? Will probably have to import some.

Projectiles/ball? Will need to source a mould.

First thing is to find out exactly what it shoots, ie brass dimensions etc.

If I'm lucky I may be able to find someone whom knew the previous owner or owners to see if they shot it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194086 - 19/11/11 03:57 AM

What a beautiful early rifle.

Yes - 11 bore is .751" exactly.
In the States, Parker Bros. made 11 bore shotguns for a while.

As Tinker suggested, the chambers, lengths, and sizes are important. You might be able to use 12 bore brass - who knows? They are probably for brass cases, unless there paper cases were made that early? Weren't some 'boxer'(Snider) cases made of thick paper with steel bases around that time?

It will most likely be meant for ball but capable of shooting both, but you will want to check the twist rate. At that time, most guns were sent out with both round ball and a minnie-type bullet moulds some with a press for properly sizing the bullets.

Some British Gun Makers had some wierd ideas on twist rates back then. The invention of breechloading double rifle capable of shooting fixed cartridges made use of elongated bullets of harder alloys possible and safe to shoot and thus made bullets capable of being used on dangerous game.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: DarylS]
#194087 - 19/11/11 04:04 AM

Would have been interesting to see the original stock, but it's sure nicely, beautifully refurbished and re-stocked. What a hunting rifle!

5 drams is the middle of the 2 3/4" 12 bore loads, I believe, at 137gr. of powder with a round ball, of that I'm quite sure.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rigbymauser
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: DarylS]
#194095 - 19/11/11 06:56 AM

Beautiful rifle John. Take it to India.

Looking at the rifling from here the twist says its made for a conical. If the twist is something like 1:50- 1.60 its conical for sure. A roundball twist is often 1:71 or more.

The stock does look like a re-done job but performed Par Excellence.

To get that gun here shoot again will take some technic. Maybe old 10bore paperhulls can be found or a custom-option is required.

Congratulations:LOL

JR

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mehulkamdar
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194098 - 19/11/11 08:09 AM

John,

Congratulations on a magnificent treasure, and one that was originally retailed in the town where I was born and grew up. The old P Orr and Sons Building still stands off Mount Road and next door to two other iconic buildings - the offices of the long-dead Mail (a newspaper that I fondly recall) and The Hindu, one of India's oldest English language newspapers. My father's first clinic used to be a very short distance across, inside the old Travancore Palace (that is gone too, and you have a brutalistic building in is place belonging to the Life Insurance Corporation of India.)

I remember the time when P Orr and Sons still sold guns and you could walk through a store with nicely polished teakwood cabinets and look at row after row of guns. The smell of 3 in 1 oil always hung in the air, and it was as addictive to a youngster like me as the smell of weed is, I guess, to some young fellows these days.

The old building now has a store selling cheap watches in front, and the rear and upper floors house a sweatshop making clothing and pillow cases and sofa covers for retailers around the world. A sad end to a glorious firm, no doubt, but all of the staff at P Orr and Sons went on to start their own little gun shops - Sammandan, Scott and Sons, Hindustan Armoury, and so on. I know that the P Orr and Sons business also had an establishment in Rangoon, but have no idea what happened to it. Would be interesting to find out, and, the death of the company (unlike the Calcutta gun shops like Rodda, Manton, Daw, Ashootoosh and Co etc that still exist) makes your gun a treasure that will never be replicated. The Karumuttu Chettiyar family who own the Indian P Orr and Sons business also traded in Burma, Singapore and Malaysia historically, but were kicked out like huge numbers of Indians were by the Burmese military junta.

Congratulations, my friend, and great hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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TH44
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: mehulkamdar]
#194104 - 19/11/11 08:59 AM

That is about as good as it gets [for me] - early, almost like a converted pinfire - bar in wood action - bolted locks - fine scroll engraving - top lever, less common this early, [although I gather Westley Richards were very keen on the top lever] - and a rifle!!

Bore rifles, especially percussion, frequently vary by a bore size in the larger sizes

I wish you all the best in getting it shooting, but if not, it is still a part of firearms history and a very good addition to any collection - I am actively looking for a 10 bore - even a single, preferably ball gun or rifle

Best

TH44

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DarylS
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: rigbymauser]
#194106 - 19/11/11 09:34 AM

Possibly made for conicals, JR. Even into the 80's, RB guns of that bore size were made and preferred by some shooters. Judging by the rate of twist does not always work - one must actually shoot the gun and find what it is actually regulated for, I believe.
What it is actually made for, may be better judged by the depth of rifling, rather than it's rate of twist.
This suggestion is basically due to the very early nature of this gun, when round balls were the BEST projectiles being used on heavy and dangerous game.

Then again, explosive bullets were coming into use. Without any documentation, I guess we're on John's time schedule.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rglenz
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: DarylS]
#194113 - 19/11/11 02:28 PM

Nice catch John! The 11 bore stamp is the standard size for a paper case 10 gauge, should be easy to get shooting. You will need to use plastic cases though, paper cases are hard to come by. I'm quite sure it was made for round ball, velocity should be around 1200 fps,(plus or minus)what ever it wants to regulate.

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: rglenz]
#194119 - 19/11/11 04:22 PM

John, that's a great looking gun! I've got a copy of an old Tolley ad that lists 1300fps for their 5 dram load with a 700gn ball. My own 5 dram Tolley does just that (1300fps) with 120gn of swiss FFFg. Everything else crossed.

Incidently, if I shoot off sticks with my left forearm resting gently on them I get 18" wide groups at 100. Off hand they're only 6-8"! Barrel time is reeeeeeally long.

My .778" gun is also marked 11. My understanding is that just means that that was the largest bore gauge that would pass through the tube at it's initial proof, even if it was only .001" too small to be called 10. Only after passing that proof was the time spent to rifle and polish, at least that's my understanding as I've seen a lot of 10s marked 11 and 12s marked 13.

Keep us posted on how it shoots!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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kamilaroi
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
#194120 - 19/11/11 04:55 PM

Bar in wood stockwork is about as good as it gets. A fine piece and a fine Westley.

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: kamilaroi]
#194125 - 19/11/11 06:15 PM

I finally found the reference I was thinking of regarding the "11" marked on the proofs. It's from Greener's Modern Breechloaders:Sporting and Military from 1871, pages 40 and 41. He's talking about shotgun barrels here, but I think the same applied to rifles:

"All first-class shooting gunbarrels will be found marked 13-bore. This mark is at the breech-end, stamped at the proof-house. In all cases where barrels are not bored up to the size before being proved,the proof-house people mark them the size under. For instance, supposing the barrels to be 13-guage, they mark them No. 13; and again, if the No. 12 plug will not pass easily down the barrels the whole length, they still mark them No. 13. These marks are looked upon by some as denoting the exact bore of the gun, but this cannot always be depended upon.

All breech-loading barrels are fine-bored after they have received the proof-mark, in order to remove the indentations caused by stamping them at proof. It often happens that they are marked 13, and gauge full 12.

Some American sportsmen will insist upon having their guns marked 12 at the proof This is a great mistake. It is impossible for us to make a really first-class shooting gun so marked. The same remarks apply to guns of 10-bore. These should be marked 11-bore, which allows the barrels
to be, when finished, just under 10-bore."

John, on a curious note I discovered that my barrels have about .003" of choke in the last few inches. I made chamber casts when I got mine and tapped a ball from breech to muzzle through each barrel. It took a steady rapping with a mallet to do so. On a whim I decided to drive a pair in the other direction and was surprised when they fell freely to the chambered after 3-4 inches.

Bob

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FATBOY404
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
#194132 - 19/11/11 09:55 PM

Very nice NitroX.
I hope to build a 12 bore next year.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"

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NitroX
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: DarylS]
#194137 - 19/11/11 11:29 PM

Quote:

... may be better judged by the depth of rifling, rather than it's rate of twist.

There isn't any depth of rifling, as the barrel is octagonal inside with the octagon "twisting" down the barrel. With small peaks in each side. Henry rifling.

Trying to take some photos to illustrate.

I believe Mickey has previously posted some photos of a similar barrel.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194138 - 20/11/11 12:15 AM

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194163 - 20/11/11 05:41 AM

The groove to groove I meant, was largest size, corner of the flat & notch to corner of the flat and notch.

The breech picture shows slower rifling what what they look like in the first muzzle-shot. This is good.

Due to the style, the difference from smallest mesurement, tops of the flats across to depth of corners looks like fair depth. It's the difference from minimum to maximum that's important.

I would think that a 5 dram load should give around 1,300fps at regulation, as Bob found in his gun.

If the barrel will allow a true 10 bore ball(.775"), in pure lead, they'll be about 700gr. of course. In WW alloy - about 670gr. I'd think something like 50:50 WW/Pure would be about perfect for penetration and easier on the barrels than if harder. Shooting ability will, of course show what's needed.

The chambers appear to be cut for a fairly thick case. Lucky, but brass would have been nice, just the same.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: DarylS]
#194187 - 20/11/11 12:07 PM

That's the same rifling profile as my WR 16bore

In a discussion on that rifle I showed some balls I'd swaged through the bores.
Octagons!

The rib is marked to note a whitworth patent, and I think the forend hook is marked with a patent use number.

Get that rifle running or send it to me so that it can hang out with mine.
;^)

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroX
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: tinker]
#194195 - 20/11/11 02:19 PM

Daryl and Tinker and Everyone else,

This is all new to me, so I appreciate any comments.

BTW I think I read once that it is not good to use plastic hulls with black powder? That the BP generates too much heat?

Why can't brass shells be used in a 10-bore OR this rifle? Assuming they can be sourced of course.

I have a good idea whom to call about past information on this rifle. Maybe even the guy whom may have restored it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kamilaroi
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Re: New to my gunrack - Westley Richards 10-bore [Re: NitroX]
#194196 - 20/11/11 02:24 PM

^ Ross W may have done the stock as I saw a pair of BiW Purdeys that he did at Geoff Slee's place prior to his passing.

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