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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Schauckis
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Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
8x60 and ammo non-availability
      #187230 - 04/08/11 05:23 AM

Hello to the Mauser info database,

I was wondering about ammo for the 8x60S. Apparently, only RWS loads ammo for it and the price is what you might expect: a bit dear, as one might say it.
All calibers in this post are supposed to fire the S bullet of .323" diameter bullets.

Having read about the history of the cartridge I have a couple of questions:
1) It was made from the 8x57. How? Since the 60mm case is longer, this does not seem quite logical.
2) Since it is based on the 8x60, can 8x57 ammo be safely fired in a 8x60 chambered gun?
3) From which caliber brass is it most convenient to make 8x60 brass? I think that .30-06, 9,3x62 (I'm in Europe) and 7x64 would all probably be suitable.
4) Load data: can 8x57 load data be safely used?
5) Re-chambering for bigger: since the guns will have been made on the long action, is re-chambering for 8x64 a no-brainer, i.e. just a matter of reaming the chamber? How about reaming to the 68mm cartridge (which also requires opening the bolt face)? I'd expect the 68 to give some problems with too short a magazine in the 60 although the OAL is only 83,60mm v. 87mm i.e. but 3,4mm difference.
6) Firing shorter rounds in a longer chamber: can 60mm ammo be fired in a gun chambered for the 64mm cartridge? How about the 57mm cartridge in a 64mm chamber?

I have spotted a couple of Sako Mausers in 8x60S and I was wondering if the caliber is actually in practice useful or will these be more collector's items/wallhangers.

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

Edited by Schauckis (04/08/11 05:56 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26510
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Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: Schauckis]
      #187236 - 04/08/11 07:31 AM

Do you have the CIP standards to compare headspace lengths of 8x57 and 8x60? That will tell you if 8x57 ammo can safely befired in the 8x60 or not. The headspace would have to be identical, with only neck length different for them to be compatible. I suspect the 8x60 has a longer body than the 8x57, but do now have anything to reference that from. that would make them non-compatible.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: DarylS]
      #187241 - 04/08/11 08:54 AM

As the manufacture of the military load 8x57IS was prohibited after WW1, the old "Versailles Treaty Cartridge" 8x60 was developed as a pure sporting cartridge to replace it. It's design allowed existing 8x57 rifles to be rechambered. It has a longer body than the 8x57, 48.2 vs. 46.2mm, so the use of 8x57IS cartridges can not be recommended! The 8x64 has a body length of 51.8mm, so firing the both shorter cartridges in that chamber would be dangerous because of grossly excessive headspace.
Making 8x60 brass from 30-06 is easy: Open the neck to 8mm and run into a full length 8x60 fl sizing die, trim to 60mm. When out of original RWS cases, I use Sellier & Bellot 30-06 brass myself. RWS 30-06 brass is less useable, because it gets thicker at the neck/shoulder junction. Setting the shoulder back on RWS cases leves a "donut" on the new neck, requiring neck reaming or turning. I have not yet tried Lapua or Norma brass. IMHO starting with 7x64 or 9.3x62 brass would only complicate things.
8x57IS load data may be safely used in the 8x60S. In fact, it may even be increased slightly by about 3%. My own favourite loads for the 8x60S, RWS brass:
1. 200 grain .323" Speer pointed soft point in front of 50 grains VV N140 for 2600 fps i.v. from my Mannlicher-Schoenauer 23" barrel. Shot all sorts of European game with this load.
2. If the rifling twist used by Sako stabilizes it, 250gr Woodleigh rn .323", 53 gr VV N160 for 2330 fps. This load is fully equal to the fabled .318 Westley-Richards, but with markedly less problems of getting proper diameter bullets.
Rechambering to 8x64S is not practical, as the 8x60S has a larger chamber neck diameter, 9.1 vs 8.99mm. The new chamber will produce a marked step halfway up the neck on the fired cases. A rechamber job to 8x68S will require more gunsmithing than you imagine:Though the magazine is long enough to accept the 8x68S factory loads, reliable and smooth feeding of the fatter cartridge requires extensive modifications of magazine follower, feed rails and receiver ring chute, done by a man who thoroughly knows what he is doing. So I would leave the 8x60 chambering as it is, as you will gain little from rechambering.
A final warning: Many early post-WW2 Sako rifles in 8x60 are barreled for the 8x60I, .318" bullets instead of the 8x60S, .323". So inspect the rifle carefully before purchasing.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26510
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: kuduae]
      #187245 - 04/08/11 10:14 AM

There is an 8x60RS. Is this an otherwise identical but rimmed case? I note the CIP maximums for the 8x60RS are 49,000psi(CIP Pezio), 44,000CIP, as these are lower than the 8x57S by a considerable amount, enough to make the 8x57S a more powerful round - in Europe - at 57,00PSI(CIP) and 49,000CIP. (35,000PSI SAAMI).

Surely that is lower than the 8x60S.

The pressure list I observed did not have the rimless 8x60 round.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (04/08/11 10:19 AM)

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: DarylS]
      #187248 - 04/08/11 12:51 PM

I had a Geyger double in 8x60RS. Made all my cases from 9.3x74r cases with a set of RCBS dies for that purpose. All had to be neck reamed. I would imagine the rimless to be easier to produce.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: zimhunter]
      #187253 - 04/08/11 02:25 PM

I have an 8x60 magnum bolt rifle, use 30-06 and trim/form.
Had an 8x60 magnum rimmed BLE double rifle, used 7mm rimmed brass and trimmed/formed.

BTW, both of these rifles were .318 (and they were both marked magnum)




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: DarylS]
      #187260 - 04/08/11 05:18 PM

Quote:

There is an 8x60RS. Is this an otherwise identical but rimmed case? I note the CIP maximums for the 8x60RS are 49,000psi(CIP Pezio), 44,000CIP, as these are lower than the 8x57S by a considerable amount, enough to make the 8x57S a more powerful round - in Europe - at 57,00PSI(CIP) and 49,000CIP. (35,000PSI SAAMI).

Surely that is lower than the 8x60S.

The pressure list I observed did not have the rimless 8x60 round.



The German 2000 proof tables (same as CIP) give these maximum transducer pressures, Pmax in bar:
8x57I (.318" rimless) = 3800 bar
8x57IR (.318" rimmed) = 3200 bar
8x60 (.318 rimless) = 4050 bar
8x60R (.318 rimmed) = 3400 bar

8x7IS (.323" rimless) = 3900 bar
8x57IRS (.323" rimmed) = 3300 bar (same as .318WR and .333 Jeffery)
8x60S (.323 rimless = 4050 bar (same as .30-06)
8x60RS (.323" rimmed) = 3400 bar

As you see, the rimmed/flanged versions intended for break-open rifles always have lower max pressures than the rimless ones. As the 8x60 cartridges allow slightly higher pressures than the 8x57 ones, they are more powerfull, but IMHO it takes a very sophisticated hunter or animal to note the difference.

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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: kuduae]
      #187268 - 04/08/11 07:55 PM

Whoa!

I know this to be a most knowledgeable and helpful forum, but still I am astounded at the quick and detailed responses.
Thank you all!!

A BIG thank you to kuduae especially - your information was precisely what I was seeking!

Frankly, I feel a bit stupid asking about firing a shorter round in a longer chamber. I should, of course, have realized the headspacing isssue. In my defence I shoot rimmed cartridges....

You are also right in that the Sako barrels were for the smaller diameter I bullet, not the S bullet which further complicates things quite a bit.
There was some discussion on the Sako collectors' forum as to the reason for this. After all, the rifles were manufactured from 1951 onwards, and the other 8mm calibers the gun was chambered for were the 8x57IS and 8x68S - why the smaller bullet 8x60 then? Apparently, if I wish to buy such a rifle slugging the barrel will be quite important, indeed.

Once again a big thank you!

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 396
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: Schauckis]
      #187275 - 04/08/11 09:23 PM

Gentlemen,

just some information about the 8x60S (kuduae left nothing over to be explained on the technical side...very informative...thank you!).

Cartridge cases can be had from RWS for about 140 €uro/100 cases (i.e. www.johannsen-jagd.de)
and that seems not to be very much in regard of shooting this classic caliber!
My favourite load consists of Rottweil R907 and the Norma 196grs PPC Vulcan or the 196grs TIG.
Best precision was obtained with the RWS 181grs Doppelkern and Kemira N140, but pressure seems to be a little high at 810 m/s. The only RWS factory load with the RWS DK was chronographed at 815 m/s out of the same rifle.

The german gunsmith Andre Fuhrmann (google for fuhrmann-jagdwaffen)in Jena can enlarge barrels from .318" to .323" diameter. After the enlargement a proof test of the new-caliber-barrel is mandatory, the passing of the test will be certificated by the proof mark stamp.

best regards
Rolf

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26510
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: Rolf]
      #187298 - 05/08/11 12:11 AM

I was under the understanding a Euro was about $2.00 CDN, in that the Euro was about the same as a pound sterling. Hope I'm terribly wrong. I strongly disagree with that price or 140 Euro as being acceptable.

Even if the euro was was on par (same)as the Canadian dollar, $140.00 for 100 cases is about $140.00 too much for once fired brass (range pickup) and $40.00 too much for brand new .30/06 brass as 5 boxes of .30/06 factory ammo or $80.00 too much for 2 bags of 50ea .30/06 unprimed brass.

Hint - with FL dies, use the seater die first - bullet seating stem removed, then the FL die, with the primer punch and expander button removed. They can then be trimmed and reamed or turned as necessary.

I would trim to length first, a couple thousandths long before forming the .06 or 7mmx64 cases. Then, using the dies as noted, I'd make the shoulder a bit proud (long)with the seater die. Then, when using the FL die, shove the shoulder back only until the case will chamber- tight bolt closure, normally referred to as a 'crush' fit. That way, the brass will fit perfectly in the chamber and will not have to stretch at the web when it is fire formed. Use regular loads for fire forming, not light loads. The brass will need very little 'forming' to the rifle's chamber dimensions, thus normal loads can be used.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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simonsaorsa
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Reged: 11/05/06
Posts: 172
Loc: UK
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: DarylS]
      #187420 - 06/08/11 03:51 AM

article on the Jagen Weltweit - german hunting magazine- website on reloading the 8x60S - www.jww.de. Click on ausrustung, then wiederladen and scroll down until you come to it. It is of course in German and covers Rottweil, Norma, Vihtavuouri and PRB powder.

Also one at www.sahunt.co.za.sahunter/reload/860mauser.html.

There was an article in one of the early Hatari Times editions too.

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simonsaorsa
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Reged: 11/05/06
Posts: 172
Loc: UK
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #187421 - 06/08/11 04:19 AM

sorry- second website is now www.sahunters.co.za and then look for herlaai data

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26510
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #187432 - 06/08/11 07:43 AM

Try this link (easier to find). http://www.sahunters.co.za/attachments/article/130/8x60S%20Mauser%20-%20André%20Fouché.pdf

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kebco
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Reged: 22/05/06
Posts: 104
Loc: PA, USA
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: DarylS]
      #187509 - 07/08/11 10:52 AM

I had a few of the 50's era Sako 8x60's in the past. If I remember correctly they are the 318 bore version of the cartridge

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m4220
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Reged: 04/02/07
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Loc: wa
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability [Re: Kebco]
      #187516 - 07/08/11 12:30 PM

Do a quick search stretching the time back about 4 years as we have had many a good discussions on this fine round. I have a very nice 98 Mauser by Heinrich Scherping that the pic's are buried here in the site somewhere, also have quite a variation of vintage boxes of this loading in both the .318 & .323 (S) even including a box of the 8x60S Magnun (Magnum Bombe)

m4220

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Schauckis
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Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
Re: 8x60 and ammo non-availability (Sako Mauser) [Re: m4220]
      #187696 - 10/08/11 02:26 AM

Update:

Visited Ase-Ami today. He has no less than six (!) Sako Mauser on his used gun shelves. Three of them in 8x60 and three in .30-06.

Well, I inquired about the caliber and we measured the mouth of the barrel: 8,2mm it said.
I asked about ammo and he dug in his safe and came up with three boxes of RWS ammo in 8x60S plus some extra loose rounds in the same. He maintained that this ammo can be used. OK, I said, may I test shoot the gun, please? Sure!

Feeding the round in the chamber produced a surprise: the bolt would not close. Ami opined that the gun has been converted to 8x57 (which I rather doubted though didn't tell him that).
So I suggested we try the other two, instead. Ami, being a most sociable sportsman, agreed and produced the other two. The result was the same!
You should have seen his face when he realized that he has three guns for sale to which he has no ammo at all!

We also checked the Frankonia catalogue for ammo - to no avail.

This does certainly prove the point that the Sako Mausers were, indeed, made with the smaller I bore barrel.
It also proves that 8x60S ammunition may not be used in all guns chambered for 8x60.

I am still surprised as the 8x57 rifles are with the S bore.
Also it still makes little sense that there were two different 8mm barrels fitted to the guns. I today heard that Sako purchased surplus barrels from Germany and this would explain it. Still: the S bore came about in 1905 (?) and the Sako Mauser production commenced in the '50's, i.e. half a century later. It does seem odd that there would have been such a bunch of old caliber barrels lying around.
I have also read that Sako bought not only the actions but also (at least) the 8x60 barrels from FN. This still would offer little logical light as to the smaller bore.

Once again a BIG thank you to all who contributed!

- Lars/Finland

PS. The .30-06 Sako Mauser shot pleasantly, indeed....

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

Edited by Schauckis (10/08/11 02:30 AM)

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