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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers
#185604 - 11/07/11 05:52 AM

Here is a partial list of calibers chambered in Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles. The list reflects both commercial and experimental calibers offered by Steyr, as well as one offered by Holland and Holland. In addition, there may have been some rifles chambered for 7.5x55 for the Swiss market, but that needs to be verified. Surprisingly, there seem to be no rifles made in 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Win Mag.

.243 Win, .244 Rem,
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win-Mag
6.5x54MS, 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68
6.7x57 Chinese (per Ludwig Olson)
.270 Win
7x57, 7x64
.280 Rem
.308 Win
.30-06 (7.62x63)
8x56MS, 8x57JS, 8x60S, 8x68S
9x56MS
.338 Win-Mag
9.3x62
.358 Win
9.5x56 MS
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win-Mag

Are there others to add?

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kuduae
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Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#185605 - 11/07/11 06:44 AM

IMHO the rumor about Mannlicher-Schoenauers in 9.3x53 Swiss is based on a misunderstanding. Both the 9.3x53 and it's rimmed twin were developed post-WW1, when the usual pre-war import of German and Austrian made guns and ammo came to a halt due to the Versailles and St.Germain "peace treaties". The only repeating rifles in 9.3x53 Swiss I have ever seen were all Mannlichers, but not Mannlicher-Schoenauers. Instead, they are on the rare, less than 8000 ever made, Swiss M93 Mannlicher cavalry carbine actions. These carbines were made under licence from Steyr by a Swiss arsenal and SIG. The M93 carbine used v.Mannlicher's straight pull action (same as the M90 and M95 Austro-Hungarian ones)combined with a Swiss type detacheable 6-shot box magazine. These M93 carbines were just, in 1919, declared obsolete, replaced by the M11 Schmidt-Rubin short rifle and the more powerfull 7.5x55 GP11 load. These M93 carbines, rebarreled or rebored to 9.3 mm, made light and handy hunting rifles for roe deer and chamoix, the only "big game" then in Switzerland. Remember, the use of the military 7.5x55 cartridge for hunting was prohibited in Switzerland and scope use was outlawed as unsporting.

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Rule303
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#185637 - 11/07/11 07:35 PM

I am suprised that MS made them in 358Win. Nothing wrong with the calibre I quite like it, just a bit unusual.

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CptCurl
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Rule303]
#185691 - 12/07/11 11:06 AM

I have an MCA carbine in .358 Win. It's a great rifle.

Curl

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lancaster
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#186020 - 18/07/11 04:56 AM

Quote:

IMHO the rumor about Mannlicher-Schoenauers in 9.3x53 Swiss is based on a misunderstanding. Both the 9.3x53 and it's rimmed twin were developed post-WW1, when the usual pre-war import of German and Austrian made guns and ammo came to a halt due to the Versailles and St.Germain "peace treaties". The only repeating rifles in 9.3x53 Swiss I have ever seen were all Mannlichers, but not Mannlicher-Schoenauers. Instead, they are on the rare, less than 8000 ever made, Swiss M93 Mannlicher cavalry carbine actions. These carbines were made under licence from Steyr by a Swiss arsenal and SIG. The M93 carbine used v.Mannlicher's straight pull action (same as the M90 and M95 Austro-Hungarian ones)combined with a Swiss type detacheable 6-shot box magazine. These M93 carbines were just, in 1919, declared obsolete, replaced by the M11 Schmidt-Rubin short rifle and the more powerfull 7.5x55 GP11 load. These M93 carbines, rebarreled or rebored to 9.3 mm, made light and handy hunting rifles for roe deer and chamoix, the only "big game" then in Switzerland. Remember, the use of the military 7.5x55 cartridge for hunting was prohibited in Switzerland and scope use was outlawed as unsporting.

kudue, did you have any pics from such 9,3x53 swiss hunting rifles? was the original military stock used, sporterized or new stocked?

there are also rumors about a version in 9,3x57 but till now I have not seen such a rifle.
maybe in sweden somewhere

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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kuduae
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
#186028 - 18/07/11 08:28 AM

Quote:

any pics from such 9,3x53 swiss hunting rifles? was the original military stock used, sporterized or new stocked?

there are also rumors about a version in 9,3x57 but till now I have not seen such a rifle.
maybe in sweden somewhere

sorry, no pics at the time. Of the few M93s in 9.3x53 Swiss I have seen many years ago, two were still in their military full stocks, handguards and all, one was restocked, but apparently quite recently. Perhaps a pre-shaped sporterstock for the M95 Austrian by Schweigert, Augsburg was modified?
The only Mannlicher-Schoenauers in 9.3x57 I have ever seen came from Sweden. Clearly rebarreled M05 and M08 actions. I have not yet seen a factory M-Sch in 9.3x57. From the factory standpoint: why should they offer this chambering? They had their own proprietary 9x56 and 9.5x57 running in the same class.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#186043 - 18/07/11 01:01 PM

Quote:

Here is a partial list of calibers chambered in Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles. The list reflects both commercial and experimental calibers offered by Steyr, as well as one offered by Holland and Holland. In addition, there may have been some rifles chambered for 7.5x55 for the Swiss market, but that needs to be verified. Surprisingly, there seem to be no rifles made in 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Win Mag.

.243 Win, .244 Rem,
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win-Mag
6.5x54MS, 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68
6.7x57 Chinese (per Ludwig Olson)
.270 Win
7x57, 7x64
.280 Rem
.308 Win
.30-06 (7.62x63)
8x56MS, 8x57JS, 8x60S, 8x68S
9x56MS
.338 Win-Mag
9.3x62
.358 Win
9.5x56 MS
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win-Mag

Are there others to add?

Note: The Chinese cartridge is 6.8x57, not 6.7x57. The Military rifle chambered for it is marked Modell 1906.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#187106 - 02/08/11 04:16 PM

Don't forget 8x64S. Here's one for sale in a Mannlicher-Schoenauer. Same as very popular 7x64 Brenneke case but necked up so it's easy enough to tweak the M-Sch. magazine follower and offer the 8x64S as another option.

http://www.vdb-waffen.de/gebrauchtwaffen...mp;Kategorie=52

The 8x64S is a close metric copy of the .30-06 and, on a hunt in Germany a few years ago, the gamekeeper there, Alfred, was using this classic caliber.

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bpesteve
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#187922 - 14/08/11 09:10 AM

Somewhat off-topic, but with all the references to the Swiss '93 Mannlicher there just happens to be one on the market pictured here:

http://collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=44591

I have no interest in the sale, but is is an unusual item and seldom seen.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
#191546 - 10/10/11 08:14 AM

So far, the count is up to 32 calibers, counting a couple of rumored calibers. Here is the revised list:
5.6x57 RWS
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.257 Rob., .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS, 6.5x55, 6.5x67, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06, AKA 7.62x63
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60S, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56, AKA 9.5x57
10.75x57 (Rumored)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

Any others?

Edited by Carpetsahib (10/10/11 12:12 PM)

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gtrotz
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#192288 - 22/10/11 08:46 AM

I have one in 7,65 argentine
gtrotz

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: gtrotz]
#192338 - 23/10/11 01:05 AM

Quote:

I have one in 7,65 argentine
gtrotz

Awesome! Can you give us further information? I am particularly interested in the model number, barrel length and stock configuration. A photo would be great.

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Carpetsahib
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Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#192339 - 23/10/11 01:11 AM

Quote:

So far, the count is up to 32 calibers, counting a couple of rumored calibers. Here is the revised list:
5.6x57 RWS
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.257 Rob., .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS, 6.5x55, 6.5x67, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06, AKA 7.62x63
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60S, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56, AKA 9.5x57
10.75x57 (Rumored)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

Any others?

7.65x54 brings the count to 31 confirmed, with 2 more rumored.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#192341 - 23/10/11 02:09 AM

The revised list revised yet again; there are now 33 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57)
10.75x57 (Rumored)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

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lancaster
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#192419 - 24/10/11 06:49 PM

Quote:

10.75x57 (Rumored)

my last correspondence with Collath 500 BPE before he was surprisingly dying in 2009 ( you will find him here in old mannlicher forum post) was going arond the Mannlicher Schoenauer Modell 1912 in 10,75x57. Collath had told me that he have known 2 or 3 M 1912 rifle's in austria. he was then on a trip to vienna were someone had offer him such M 1912 but in the end it was a worn M 1910. He had no pics from such a beast and to my knowledge nothing floating around. in all we know it must be engraved Mannlicher Schoenauer M 1912 on the receiver.
have heard that Erich Schoeder http://www.eschoder.com/english/english-index.htm
also confirm the existence of the M 1912 in 10,75x57.
it's the only good explanation while the 10,75x57 is sometimes called 10,75x57 Mannlicher. cartridge collectors have found it under this name in the Georg Roth list. this designation is wrong

I have a Suhl made M 98 in 10,75x57 and collect informations about this cartridge for year now. my opinion is that the little 10,75 was created in Suhl beetween 1904 and 1907.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (27/11/11 04:20 AM)

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Carpetsahib
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Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
#192439 - 25/10/11 01:22 AM

Thanks for the information. I regret to learn that Collath 500BPE (Johann) has passed. He made a great contribution to the forum.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#192740 - 29/10/11 09:22 AM

I just ran across another odd one: A M-S Model 1950 sold on liveauctionworld.com in October. It was from the Robert Peterson Collection and was listed as 7.7x64! Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? Surely that isn't another designation for the 8x64S.

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georgegibbs505
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#193875 - 16/11/11 02:59 PM

There was also the .256 Gibbs Magnum chambering.

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Phillip
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: georgegibbs505]
#193928 - 17/11/11 01:34 AM

a 1952 Mannlicher/.308 in the Southern deer woods...my favorite walk around..

--------------------
My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.
-Winston Churchill

Edited by CptCurl (27/11/11 04:21 AM)

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Carpetsahib
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Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#193929 - 17/11/11 01:53 AM

Quote:

The revised list revised yet again; there are now 35 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 ????
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57)
10.75x57 (Rumored)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Phillip]
#193930 - 17/11/11 01:58 AM

Quote:

a 1952 Mannlicher/.308 in the Southern deer woods...my favorite walk around..

My first M-S was a 1961 Carbine in .308. It was a wonderful rifle; wish I still had it.

Edited by CptCurl (27/11/11 04:21 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: georgegibbs505]
#193946 - 17/11/11 05:44 AM

Quote:

There was also the .256 Gibbs Magnum chambering.

A friend of mine has one. It was not made by Steyr, but was built and rechambered by G.Gibbs on a M-Sch 1903 barreled action from the Military production line for Greece, dated on the receiver wall "Steyr 1912" and without the commercial production bolt-hold-down spring. The .256 Gibbs Magnum is named so for it's bore diameter. The .256 Gibbs Magnum case is essentially a 6.5x57 with a shorter neck. My friend uses 6.5x57 brass shortened to 55mm and 6.5x57 load data. The 6.5x55 Swedish case is too fat at the base to fit his chamber.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#194099 - 19/11/11 08:14 AM

Erich Schoder who builds Mannlicher Schonauer type rifles would be able to give more information. I have heard that the gentleman is very particular about building rifles only in calibers and configurations in which they were historically built - he would be able to give information.

I would only suggest calling on the phone - e-mail is something that the company is very slow to respond to.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Carpetsahib
.333 member

Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#206911 - 11/04/12 10:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The revised list revised yet again; there are now 36 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 ????
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57)
.375/43/270 Westley Richards Proprietary Cartridge
10.75x57 (Rumored)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

Edited to add the .375/43/270 Westley Richards.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#207902 - 01/05/12 07:21 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The revised list revised yet again; there are now 37 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.220 Swift (By G&H on a 1900 Action)
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 ????
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57)
.375/43/270 Westley Richards Proprietary Cartridge
10.75x57 (Rumored)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

Edited to add the .375/43/270 Westley Richards.

Added .220 Swift and updated count to 37

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gtrotz
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Posts: 7
Loc: Catrilo, La Pampa , Argentina

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#212488 - 11/07/12 06:04 AM

Hi friends:
Some time ago I posted here that I have a 7,65 arg mannlicher, that's right but this weekend I look at it and am not sure if it is a rebarreled 7,65 over a 1908 rifle , if it is what I suspect is done by a very very good smith .
I know this rifle come from a very good shoter but he is dead long time ago so I can't confirm the origin.
When I learn how to send photos I will send some of them.
Sincerelly
gtrotz

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Carpetsahib
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Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: gtrotz]
#212887 - 17/07/12 09:34 AM

Thanks, that would be great.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#214562 - 14/08/12 06:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The revised list revised yet again; there are now 37 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.220 Swift (By G&H on a 1900 Action)
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53, .256 MS), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 ????
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57)
.375/43/270 Westley Richards Proprietary Cartridge
10.75x57 (Rumored)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

Edited to add the .375/43/270 Westley Richards.

Added .220 Swift and updated count to 37

Edited to add .256 MS

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kuduae
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Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#214563 - 14/08/12 07:08 AM

Carpetsahib, look at the table above again! The .256 MS is aleady listed. Outside the British world it is known as the 6.5x54 M-Sch.

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Carpetsahib
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Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#214612 - 14/08/12 10:26 PM

Quote:

Carpetsahib, look at the table above again! The .256 MS is aleady listed. Outside the British world it is known as the 6.5x54 M-Sch.

I am merely pointing out possible caliber markings that may be encountered. If you will look closely, you will notice that the .256 MS is in parenthesis following 6.5x54 MS, indicating that it is an alternative name. It is not counted as a separate chambering.

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Carpetsahib
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Posts: 435
Loc: Western NC

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#215499 - 26/08/12 02:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The revised list revised yet again; there are now 39 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.220 Swift (By G&H on a 1900 Action)
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53, .256 MS), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 ????
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x53 (Swiss, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57)
.375/43/270 Westley Richards Proprietary Cartridge
10.75x57
10.75x63 (Model 1912, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

Edited to add the .375/43/270 Westley Richards.

Added .220 Swift and updated count to 37

Edited to add .256 MS

Edited to confirm 10.75x57 and add 9.3x53, 10.75x63, bringing count to 39. What about the 9.3x57? Can anyone confirm that?

Edited by Carpetsahib (26/08/12 10:39 PM)

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#215500 - 26/08/12 04:26 AM

the 10,75x63 is a mistake, cant be! would not fit into the old action that was used before 1924

the Model 1912 was in 10,75x57, not a rumor!

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
#215513 - 26/08/12 10:46 AM

Quote:

the 10,75x63 is a mistake, cant be! would not fit into the old action that was used before 1924

the Model 1912 was in 10,75x57, not a rumor!

Ok, maybe John Walter misspoke. How about that chambering in the post-1924 action? Is that known to exist?

10.75x57 was reported to be a rumor; do you have direct knowledge of a M-S chambered in this cartridge? I would be happy if this is the case.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
#215521 - 26/08/12 02:08 PM

Quote:

my last correspondence with Collath 500 BPE before he was surprisingly dying in 2009 ( you will find him here in old mannlicher forum post) was going arond the Mannlicher Schoenauer Modell 1912 in 10,75x57. Collath had told me that he have known 2 or 3 M 1912 rifle's in austria. he was then on a trip to vienna were someone had offer him such M 1912 but in the end it was a worn M 1910. He had no pics from such a beast and to my knowledge nothing floating around. in all we know it must be engraved Mannlicher Schoenauer M 1912 on the receiver.
have heard that Erich Schoeder http://www.eschoder.com/english/english-index.htm
also confirm the existence of the M 1912 in 10,75x57.
it's the only good explanation while the 10,75x57 is sometimes called 10,75x57 Mannlicher. cartridge collectors have found it under this name in the Georg Roth list. this designation is wrong

I have the word of two gentleman, enough

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
#215550 - 26/08/12 10:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

my last correspondence with Collath 500 BPE before he was surprisingly dying in 2009 ( you will find him here in old mannlicher forum post) was going arond the Mannlicher Schoenauer Modell 1912 in 10,75x57. Collath had told me that he have known 2 or 3 M 1912 rifle's in austria. he was then on a trip to vienna were someone had offer him such M 1912 but in the end it was a worn M 1910. He had no pics from such a beast and to my knowledge nothing floating around. in all we know it must be engraved Mannlicher Schoenauer M 1912 on the receiver.
have heard that Erich Schoeder http://www.eschoder.com/english/english-index.htm
also confirm the existence of the M 1912 in 10,75x57.
it's the only good explanation while the 10,75x57 is sometimes called 10,75x57 Mannlicher. cartridge collectors have found it under this name in the Georg Roth list. this designation is wrong

I have the word of two gentleman, enough

Good enough. I edited my list accordingly.

Concerning the 10.75x63: Cartridges of the World comments, "Although generally referred to in the literature as a Mauser cartridge, some authorities say this is a Mannlicher development. It was introduced about 1910....."

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
#215551 - 26/08/12 10:55 PM

I have a disclaimer regarding the M-S Caliber List: I have no particular expertise in this subject, just an abiding interest. I also have a modest library and access to the WWW, which I utilize constantly. I am, therefore, grateful for any direct or indirect knowledge, or well-considered opinion, concerning M-S calibers. I realize, all too well, that published information may be erroneous; I will be happy to make corrections when necessary.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#215555 - 27/08/12 12:51 AM

the 10,75x63 is the forerunner of the 10,75x68 and became obsolete when this round came on the market. can we say that rifle's for the 10,75x63 are rare? I only ever heard of ONE! kuduae show it here http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post153743

the model of 1924 was able to hold such large rounds but the 10,75x63 was also obsolete than and Steyt chamber the popular 10,75x68.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#216627 - 12/09/12 11:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

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The revised list revised yet again; there are now 39 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.220 Swift (By G&H on a 1900 Action)
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53, .256 MS), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 (aka 375/303 Westley Richards, 375/303 Axite)
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x53 (Swiss, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
9.3x57 (Rumored)
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57 MS, .375 Express)
.375/43/270 Westley Richards Proprietary Cartridge
10.75x57
10.75x63 (Model 1912, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

Edited to add the .375/43/270 Westley Richards.

Added .220 Swift and updated count to 37

Edited to add .256 MS

Edited to confirm 10.75x57 and add 9.3x53, 10.75x63, bringing count to 39. What about the 9.3x57? Can anyone confirm that?

Edited to add info re. 7.7x64, 9.5x56MS. Also, to confirm that the M-S is able to handle rimmed or semi-rimmed cartridges, such as 375/303 WR and .220 Swift. Please note the following quote from "Mauser, Walther and Mannlicher Firearms", pg. 227, by W.H.B. Smith, concerning the Schoenauer Magazine design: " This magazine design is very efficient when use with rim cartridges since it provides excellent feeding. When used with rimless cartridges it is no more efficient than the simple and cheaper vertical box magazine."

Edited by Carpetsahib (13/09/12 05:46 AM)

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#216963 - 19/09/12 03:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

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The revised list revised yet again; there are now 39 calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.220 Swift (By G&H on a 1900 Action)
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53, .256 MS), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 (aka 375/303 Westley Richards, 375/303 Axite)
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x53 (Swiss, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
9.3x57
9.3x62
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57 MS, .375 Express)
.375/43/270 Westley Richards Proprietary Cartridge
10.75x57
10.75x63 (Model 1912, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

Edited to add the .375/43/270 Westley Richards.

Added .220 Swift and updated count to 37

Edited to add .256 MS

Edited to confirm 10.75x57 and add 9.3x53, 10.75x63, bringing count to 39. What about the 9.3x57? Can anyone confirm that?

Edited to add info re. 7.7x64, 9.5x56MS. Also, to confirm that the M-S is able to handle rimmed or semi-rimmed cartridges, such as 375/303 WR and .220 Swift. Please note the following quote from "Mauser, Walther and Mannlicher Firearms", pg. 227, by W.H.B. Smith, concerning the Schoenauer Magazine design: " This magazine design is very efficient when use with rim cartridges since it provides excellent feeding. When used with rimless cartridges it is no more efficient than the simple and cheaper vertical box magazine."

9.3x57 confirmed; article in Mannlicher Collectors by Phil Sparholt.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#222621 - 31/12/12 12:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

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The revised list revised yet again; there are now 40(!) calibers:
5.6x57 RWS
.220 Swift (By G&H on a 1900 Action)
.243 Win, .244 Rem
.256 Gibbs Magnum
.257 Rob, .257 Wby
.264 Win
6.5x54 MS (aka 6.5x53, .256 MS), 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68S
6.8x57 Chinese
.270 Win
.280 Rem
7x57, 7x64
.308 Win
.30-06 (aka 7.62x63)
7.65x54 Arg
7.7 x 64 (aka 375/303 Westley Richards, 375/303 Axite)
8x56 MS, 8x57JS, 8x60, 8x64S, 8x68S
9x56 MS
.338 Win
.358 Win
9.3x53 (Swiss, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
9.3x57
9.3x62
9.3x64
9.5x56 MS (aka 9.5x57 MS, .375 Express)
.375/43/270 Westley Richards Proprietary Cartridge
10.75x57
10.75x63 (Model 1912, John Walter, Rifles of the World)
10.75x68
.400/.375 H&H
.458 Win

How about the .318 WR?

Edited to add the .375/43/270 Westley Richards.

Added .220 Swift and updated count to 37

Edited to add .256 MS

Edited to confirm 10.75x57 and add 9.3x53, 10.75x63, bringing count to 39. What about the 9.3x57? Can anyone confirm that?

Edited to add info re. 7.7x64, 9.5x56MS. Also, to confirm that the M-S is able to handle rimmed or semi-rimmed cartridges, such as 375/303 WR and .220 Swift. Please note the following quote from "Mauser, Walther and Mannlicher Firearms", pg. 227, by W.H.B. Smith, concerning the Schoenauer Magazine design: " This magazine design is very efficient when use with rim cartridges since it provides excellent feeding. When used with rimless cartridges it is no more efficient than the simple and cheaper vertical box magazine."

9.3x57 confirmed; article in Mannlicher Collectors by Phil Sparholt.

Upped count to 40. Added 9.3x64...how could I have overlooked that one?

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#248160 - 30/05/14 11:17 AM

I learned that a MS collector in the NE USA has a Mannlicher chambered for an 8x40 cartridge. Does anyone have information regarding an 8x40??? There is nothing about this caliber in municion.org, or any other source that I can find.

It is possible that the cartridge is actually the 7.92x40 CETME. Unfortunately, I do not know the model number nor the date for the rifle, whether it is post-WWI or post-WWII.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#248161 - 30/05/14 11:23 AM

Can anyone tell me the years that were chambered in .375H&H?

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: DonZ]
#248164 - 30/05/14 11:37 AM

I have a 1908 MS chambered in 9x57 Mauser. I don't know if it ordered from the factory this way or rechambered I can tell you the serial numbers match on the barrel, action, and stock.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: ms1255]
#248190 - 30/05/14 03:01 PM

In m/1905 original caliber is 9x56 MS so maybe yours is just re-chamfered but if yours is factory-made 9x57 there should be caliber engarved in fore bridge. In my 1908 there is text 8MM NORM which means in this case 8x56 MS.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: DonZ]
#248213 - 31/05/14 12:25 AM

Quote:

Can anyone tell me the years that were chambered in .375H&H?

Never!Even the Mannlicher-Schoenauer "Magnum" Action chamberd in 6.5x68,8x68 and .458 Win will not take a cartridge with an Overall legth of more than 86 mm, so the .375 H&H is out.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#248216 - 31/05/14 01:06 AM

9.3x57 confirmed; article in Mannlicher Collectors by Phil Sparholt.

Wrong! The 9.3x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer reported by Sparholt in "The Mannlicher Collector" #104, page 2, is obviously a rebarrel job, probably done in Zella-Mehlis. It is a M1908, so marked on the receiver ring, so it was an 8x56 M-S originally. The barrel shank is of an unusual shape, not seen on any other Mannlicher or Mannlicher-Schoenauer barrel. The rifle bears German, most likely Zella-Mehlis, CROWN-crown/N proofmarks, in use to the 1920s, indicating nitro proof using the special"4000 atm proof powder". When the gun was reproofed in Germany, it was marked for a StmG 19gr = 293 gr steel jacket bullet. So this rifle does not confirm Mannlicher-Schoenauers ever made in 9.3x57 by the Steyr factory, it only shows again that Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles were often converted by other gunsmithes to non-Standard calibers.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#248220 - 31/05/14 01:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:

any pics from such 9,3x53 swiss hunting rifles? was the original military stock used, sporterized or new stocked?

there are also rumors about a version in 9,3x57 but till now I have not seen such a rifle.
maybe in sweden somewhere

sorry, no pics at the time. Of the few M93s in 9.3x53 Swiss I have seen many years ago, two were still in their military full stocks, handguards and all, one was restocked, but apparently quite recently. Perhaps a pre-shaped sporterstock for the M95 Austrian by Schweigert, Augsburg was modified?
The only Mannlicher-Schoenauers in 9.3x57 I have ever seen came from Sweden. Clearly rebarreled M05 and M08 actions. I have not yet seen a factory M-Sch in 9.3x57. From the factory standpoint: why should they offer this chambering? They had their own proprietary 9x56 and 9.5x57 running in the same class.

Here are some photos of such a Swiss military M1893 carbine converted to 9.3x53 Swiss:

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#248238 - 31/05/14 01:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Can anyone tell me the years that were chambered in .375H&H?

Never!Even the Mannlicher-Schoenauer "Magnum" Action chamberd in 6.5x68,8x68 and .458 Win will not take a cartridge with an Overall legth of more than 86 mm, so the .375 H&H is out.

That's what I thought, and yet there it is on this list, right next to .400...

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: DonZ]
#248241 - 31/05/14 05:33 PM

I am sure Kuduae will correct me if I am wrong but that is the 2 1/2" H&H .375, a different cartridge, best, Mike

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#248242 - 31/05/14 05:40 PM

the only other 9,3x53 Swiss rifle I have seen

clearly a M 1908, the Vienna snap mount points at austria as the place it was reworked

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
#248245 - 31/05/14 09:27 PM

Quote:

I am sure Kuduae will correct me if I am wrong but that is the 2 1/2" H&H .375, a different cartridge, best, Mike

The .400/.375 Belted Nitro Express aka .375 2 ½” H&H aka .375 Holland Velopex are all the same cartridge, different loads and names only, introduced by H&H in 1905. H&H converted Mannlicher-Schoenauer and Mauser actions with barrels made in England to use this cartridge. Rifles in this chambering were not made by the Steyr factory. H&H most likely ceased making such rifles after they introduced their .375 H&H Magnum in 1912. The proprietary .400/375 was probably already on the way out after Steyr introduced the 9.5x57 M-S aka .375 Rimless Nitro Express aka .375 Westley Richards Accelerated Express aka .375/43/270 WR (proprietary load with the WR Copper Capped Expanding bullet) in 1910. The 9.5x57 as a Steyr factory offering with widely available interchangeable cartridges made the proprietary H&H .400/.375 superfluous. In his book “Mauser- OOSR”, page 238, friend Jon Speed shows a H&H takedown rifle on a Mauser action, chambered in 9.5x57 M-S. As the original case label, “our special solid brass case”, and a chamber cast told us later, it was rechambered from .400/.375 H&H to the more readily available 9.5x57 M-S during the interwar years. The .400/375 had a belt-rim diameter vera close to the standard rimless .473” base, but with a slimmer case body. The “new” 9.5x57 chamber shows an unusually long neck area, left over from the longer .400/375 chamber.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#248246 - 31/05/14 09:30 PM

Thanks Kuduae, I somehow guessed you might have more info

best

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#248247 - 31/05/14 09:39 PM

Quote:

the only other 9,3x53 Swiss rifle I have seen
clearly a M 1908, the Vienna snap mount points at austria as the place it was reworked

IMHO rebarreled in Switzerland during the 1920s – 30s. The barrel, protruding from the foreend, and the front sight are unlike everything I have seen on a Steyr or other Austrian product. The front base of the Vienna snap mount of the 4x Kahles Mignon scope was most likely transferred from the original M1908 8x56 barrel and soldered on the new 9.3x53 one. These scopes and mounts were offered as a “factory option” by Steyr during the 1920s.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#248414 - 03/06/14 10:30 PM

What caliber is the M-S Model 1906 chambered for?

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#248429 - 04/06/14 03:42 AM

Never heard anything about a Mannlicher-Schoenauer Modell 1906. Sometimes some confusion comes from the Steyr habit of marking their militaryy production. Many M1903 rifles in 6.5x54 M-S from the cheaper miltary production line were imported by British gunmakers like Gibbs, Jeffery or H&H, and converted by them into sporters, some to other chamberings. Mannlichers always had the model designation marked on top of the Receiver ring. Military rifles by Steyr were usually marked additionally with "Steyr" and the year of production on the left receiver wall. Sometimes the Brits scrubbed of the model designation from the receiver ring, but left the date on the left wall intact. My own British Mannlichers by Gibbs are marked this:
M95 Mannlicher, receiver ring scrubbed, left wall "Steyr 1899"
M1900 M-Sch, ring "Modell 1900", wall "Steyr 1901"
M1903 M-Sch, ring "Modell 1903", wall "Steyr 1905"
So IMHO someone read "Steyr 1906" on the receiver wall of a British sporter and mistook this for a model designation.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#248430 - 04/06/14 04:36 AM

M-S Model 1905 has chamfered to 9x56 MS.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
#248431 - 04/06/14 04:39 AM

Here is the reason I asked the question: In the book "Mauser Bolt Rifles" by Ludwig Olsen, he has a paragraph on the 6.8 x 57 Chinese cartridge. Here is the entire paragraph: "The 6.8mm cartridge for the Model 1907 Chinese Mauser had a rimless case 57mm long and a 139-gr. pointed bullet of .277" diameter. It was apparently developed by necking down the 7.9mm Mauser cartridge. An illustration of the 6.8mm cartridge case was shown in an Austrian G. Roth catalog of the pre-World War I period. A military Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle chambered for this cartridge is at the Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum. The marking "Modell 1906" on this rifle would apparently indicate that the Austrian Arms Co. was competing with Mauser for arms contracts from the Chinese."

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#248440 - 04/06/14 07:39 AM

OK, so there was at least one Mannlicher-Schoenauer marked Modell 1906, chambered for the obscure and short-lived 6.8x57 Chinese cartridge. This was apparently a short run of military test rifles. But the Chinese adopted the Mauser 1907 instead. As the DWM case number 511A shows, it was the 7x57, case # 511, necked down slightly to take a .276" 139gr bullet. Any advantage of this cartridge over the established 7x57 would be imaginary only. No commercial sporters, neither Mannlicher-Schoenauer nor Mauser, are known. Alas, even the Chinese soon rebarreled their M1907 Mauser rifles to 8x57.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#248845 - 12/06/14 11:07 AM

I've been finding references to the following:

7x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer
7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer

Does anyone know anything about either of these? Perhaps I'll do a separate topic on them.

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: fsrmg1]
#252029 - 13/08/14 04:09 AM

Quote:

I've been finding references to the following:

7x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer
7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer

Does anyone know anything about either of these? Perhaps I'll do a separate topic on them.

Am I correct in assuming these cartridges are based on the 6x54 MS? Perhaps simply necked up?

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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
#252036 - 13/08/14 05:23 AM

They could be. There is reference that the 7x54mm was a shorter version of the 7x57mm based on that case head size, but there could also be some as sort of a wildcat of the parent 6.5x54mm case for shot out bores. Same goes for the 7.63x54mm Greek, it could simply be the Greeks changing the name of the captured Turkish 7.65x53mm rifles, or again an experimental calibre to open up worn out bores with the same case to increase service life on the cheap. Sort of like the Italian 7.35mm Carcano.

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