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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Spud303
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Reged: 25/05/11
Posts: 48
Loc: ACT, Australia
Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga
      #184633 - 26/06/11 06:19 PM

Hi,
Just starting to reload for a Husqvarna Mod 4 Rolling Block chambered for the 40 mm 20 ga brass case. The rifle appeared to be in mint condition when I got hold of it. Heavy 32" oct barrel, shotgun butt and, twin extractors, bore .622", groove .662, twist approx 1 in 72", 3 leaf sight marked 60, 120 & 180 m.

After trimming some CBC brass 20 ga cases to match the chamber a 16 ga ball (.662") was a tight slip fit so I loaded some up with 2 3/4 drams FFg (approx 75 gr)and a 1/4" greased felt wad. These grouped nicely but were approx 8" high at 50 m. Made up a conical slug by boring out a .662 round ball mould with a single shallow lube groove (approx 520 gr with 40-1 alloy). Using the same load these also shot well but were about 10" high at 50 m. At 100 m both projectiles are still hitting centre but about 6-8" high using the 60 m leaf and a 6 o'clock hold. The 120 m leaf puts them way over the target

So I'm after any suggestions on what to try next to get these projectiles hitting lower. Can I increase the powder charge - not sure about the safe limits with these Husky RB actions, or should I reduce the height of the 60 m sight. The foresight is already very low.

This bore gun shows real potential and is very pleasant to shoot.

Spud




Edited by CptCurl (27/06/11 01:33 AM)

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: Spud303]
      #184638 - 26/06/11 06:53 PM


Pictures Please..
Sounds like a great gun you have found there.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: rigbymauser]
      #184640 - 26/06/11 07:20 PM


Thanks!:LOL

Looks great.

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rglenz
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Reged: 14/03/08
Posts: 134
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: rigbymauser]
      #184651 - 26/06/11 10:18 PM

You need a higher front sight,or lower the rear sight.

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DarylS
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Posts: 26486
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: rglenz]
      #184661 - 27/06/11 02:10 AM

If - if the groups are good with either, then I'd simply replace the front sight, keeping the rear as an original piece of the rifle.

-----if the grouping is not good, I'd work up a good load, then 'adjust' the sights to accomodate the point of impact.

-----if I demanded to get the gun to shoot to the sights on the rifle, I'd reduce the ball weight- ie; size, to reduce the impact height. The heavier the projectile, the higher it is going to strike as the muzzle will be higher when it departs.

I would try sucessively smaller balls, starting at a .648" ball with wads, ie; cushion and hard overpowder wad. Because the ball is larger than the bore size & will be engraved, it will pretty much centre in the bore and should also have a 'wash' of lubricant on it, ie: beeswax/Vaseline, beeswax/Neetsfoot oil, beeswax/roo grease/comercial BP lube - not ALOX. Alox lubes are smokeless lubes and do not mix with nor soften BP fouling.

You can also try increasing the charge weight to reduce the impact height.

75gr. is a pipsqueak load and might be the reason it is shooting so high. Even 90gr. to 120gr. 2f in a 20 or 16 bore rifle produces low pressure, when fired with a round ball. A Flintlock or caplock rifle or 20 or 16 bore will easily shoot 150gr. of 2F with a round ball without stressing anything - except perhaps the shooter's shoulder & not much at that. Your Rolling block is considerably stronger than the 'system' used in a muzzleloading rifle, therefore prudent increases in powder charge can help 'regulate' the load to it's sights.

The .020" deep rifling is quite interesting. It is very deep and might be meant for a smaller ball, not a full sized one. In the 70's, it was felt the rifling needed to be deeper than the projectile's size, to accomodate fouling. That is the reason the M71 Mauser had a .457" groove diameter and shot a .446" bullet. By 1884, that thinking had changed for most. Perhaps not all. Your rifle is just over 20 bore (20 bore is .615") on the bore size, and 16 bore in the grooves. That's .040" total rifling depth, .020" per side.

My own Husky 16 bore double-gun, has a 13 bore rifled barrel with .015" rifling depth, yet takes brass 16 bore cases (brass or paper originally, and now plastic. The thin brass case perfectly fits a .705" ball, yet I use a .662" ball in .030" denim patching, or a .690" ball bare. They both shoot well or about s well as straight rifling will shoot.

I really like the looks of your 20's action - supurb! Fantastic? Any 'full-rifle' pictures?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: rglenz]
      #184669 - 27/06/11 03:10 AM

I had got a Husqvarna Model 17 A in 1999 when all this informations were not available in the net as today. thought that this combination gun use 40 mm long brass cases like german rifles from this time






but I wonder about the long free bore you see here. the black line shows were the 40mm case ends and you see where rifling starts. it was ok for me because I load a .589 480 grains Lee minie bullet over 90 grains black powder with my .577 snider die set. the rifle dont shoot perfect because of the hollow base bullet but I get it in a 10 -15 cm circle around the target at 50 meter.


some years later I learned that Husqvarna chamber the combo's and rolling block rifles for a 50mm long brass case with a round ball


old Husqvarna catalog shows ammo for the Model 17 a 20/50 ( also in 24/50 and 28/50)
the Modell 17 B in 12,7x44R and the Modell 17 C in 9,3x57R 360

there was a thread once in the swedish firearms forum where such rolling blocks were topic. I think it was lost then in a crash years ago but I saved the pics from differnt rolling block bore rifles and ammo






slug the bore


old 50mm cartridges for the roller, different german made brass cases




new made 20/50 cartridges


12,7x44R and 20/50 side by side




maybe your rifle will do a little bit better with 50mm long brass

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (28/06/11 08:07 PM)

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Spud303
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Reged: 25/05/11
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Loc: ACT, Australia
Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #184710 - 27/06/11 07:36 PM

Thanks for the replies & suggestions. Will try to post some photos of the full rifle at some stage. I plan to use this rifle for deer - Fallow & Reds which we have in the local region.

Daryl - I'll have a go at increasing the powder charge. Have just got hold of a .635 RB so will try that bare and with a cloth patch. Should I lube the patch? The front sight is way too low already to consider using something shorter.

Lancaster - I can confirm that it is chambered for the 40mm case. One of the first things I did was make a wax chamber cast. There is no freebore ahead of the chamber, just an abrupt step and the rifling begins. It is very similar to one of your chamber casts shown on an earlier post (lot's of great information, thanks). In your experience with the various 40/20 loadings have you ever come across any details on the powder charge used with either the round ball or the conical loadings?
Thanks
Spud

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DarylS
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: Spud303]
      #184737 - 28/06/11 02:08 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the replies & suggestions. Will try to post some photos of the full rifle at some stage. I plan to use this rifle for deer - Fallow & Reds which we have in the local region.

Daryl - I'll have a go at increasing the powder charge. Have just got hold of a .635 RB so will try that bare and with a cloth patch. Should I lube the patch? The front sight is way too low already to consider using something shorter.
Thanks
Spud



A cloth patch needs to be lubricated. It not only protects the cloth from tearing or wearing holes from the lands as well as sealing gas pressure behind, it leaves lube in the bore & in the fouling to soften the fouling so the next shot is not effected and the fouling. As each patched ball travels down the stube, the fouling is wiped from the bore. The lube from that patch, softens the fouling left by that shot. This happens over and over and over, and the bore never builds up fouling - what I like to call, shooting cleanly.

If the fouling builds up, caking and reducing accuracy, the lube isn't good enough, or there isn't enough of it.

If the rifle shoots low, the front sight has to be lowered (or the rear sight is raised) to raise the point of impact.

If the rifle shoots high the front sight must be raised (or the rear sight is lowered) to lower the point of impact.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: DarylS]
      #184739 - 28/06/11 03:19 AM

I think you mean the cast in the middle here. this was cast in a very light sxs combination gun with a 24/40 barrel from Funk in Suhl. the bullet itself was sitting very deep into the case and the combo was intended to shot a light load, no doubt.


the only load advise we(Fuhrmann) ever found was this here: 21,9 gramm cat head bullet over 2,5 gramm black powder.



this was for another style of hunting when wounded game was chase with hounds and killed in the end with the Hirschfänger. the bullet itself is a very light one here because the RWS catalog shows 33,3 gramm for the 24 ga bullet and 39,4 gramm for the 20 ga bullet.

the bad news about your chamber cast is that another rule fall's.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (28/06/11 08:08 PM)

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #184742 - 28/06/11 03:34 AM

Once again Lancaster delivers with data from his library!
Nice chamber-cast images too!

This will be a cool little bore-rifle when it ''gets rolling"!!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: tinker]
      #184753 - 28/06/11 05:10 AM

I was thinking about it today and iirc the owner of the bore rifle rolling block in the swedish firearms forum found a case lenght of 46mm. so the pics with the new made ammo showing 46mm long brass. was there a chamber lenght of the week in the husqvarna factory? its maybe because such rifles were made from hand and only from time to time for the few conservative farmer who like to have a breech loader similar to the muzzle loader they were familar with.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Spud303
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Reged: 25/05/11
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #184792 - 28/06/11 04:50 PM

Lancaster. A correction.... I just measured one of my fired brass cases and it is 46 mm long not 40 mm, so it is the same as our Swedish colleague.

Spud

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lancaster
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: Spud303]
      #184820 - 29/06/11 01:46 AM

thank you, now it starts to make sense again. must say that I never found a original source for the "50 mm" and it was only hearsay. the Husqvarna catalog dont mention anything about the brass lenght. I never see swedish brass ,only german made cases and one time Rauhfoss brass from norway.
Husqvarna must have sold a roundball mould with the rifle and someone in sweden must have importet german made 65 mm long brass and cut it to 46mm.


if your rolling block is also chambered for the 46mm long brass and my own M 17 A is having much more a 46 mm long chamber than a 50 mm I would assume that the original length was indeed 46 mm. when you load a roundball its clever to use a 46mm instead a 40 mm case for the cats head bullet.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: lancaster]
      #256108 - 31/10/14 10:13 AM

There's just no place like Nitroexpress.com for this sort of esoteric, PASSIONATE devotion to obscure firearms for the bloody joy of it!

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #256110 - 31/10/14 10:42 AM

Yes Bill!

Also to add to the conversation, I've seen numerous British and Irish 20bore sporting rifles regulated for a 2-1/2 dram load of No.6 powder. I've found Swiss 1-1/2F at regulation volume (via vintage powder measure) to work perfectly in my so-regulated Purdey 20bore rifle.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Iowa_303s
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: tinker]
      #256112 - 31/10/14 11:23 AM

Bill,
Thanks for bringing this post back to the top.
Lots of great information.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Ash
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #256148 - 01/11/14 12:16 AM

Wow, i hope we can coax Spud303 into giving us an update!

--------------------
.

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Iowa_303s
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: Ash]
      #256156 - 01/11/14 02:27 AM

Quote:

Wow, i hope we can coax Spud303 into giving us an update!


+1

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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4al2
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #256456 - 09/11/14 03:18 PM

Can the 20/50 be made today? if a person decide to make one of a 20ga. SxS can they make from a. Donor gun? What would the barrel rifling be ? And what would be the blank to buy?

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bigskybound
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: 4al2]
      #266625 - 18/06/15 01:06 AM

The No. 4 Husqvarna mentioned by Lancaster is mine. I have only had it at the range once for any real bench work. Here is the gun (Third from the top in the Fullstock Family Foto) and two targets.








Above at 50 Yards



Above at 100 Yards.

Not bad for guns intended for Minute of Moose accuracy.

Below is a 28 Gauge Rifle I recently acquired. Have not fired it yet.



The one below is a gunsmith made 24 Gauge with straight rifling. Simple guns like this are sometimes called Allmogevapen (Peasant Guns) in Sweden.

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brandoninaz
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: DarylS]
      #271554 - 09/10/15 12:03 PM

Quote:

If - if the groups are good with either, then I'd simply replace the front sight, keeping the rear as an original piece of the rifle.

-----if the grouping is not good, I'd work up a good load, then 'adjust' the sights to accomodate the point of impact.

-----if I demanded to get the gun to shoot to the sights on the rifle, I'd reduce the ball weight- ie; size, to reduce the impact height. The heavier the projectile, the higher it is going to strike as the muzzle will be higher when it departs.

I would try sucessively smaller balls, starting at a .648" ball with wads, ie; cushion and hard overpowder wad. Because the ball is larger than the bore size & will be engraved, it will pretty much centre in the bore and should also have a 'wash' of lubricant on it, ie: beeswax/Vaseline, beeswax/Neetsfoot oil, beeswax/roo grease/comercial BP lube - not ALOX. Alox lubes are smokeless lubes and do not mix with nor soften BP fouling.

You can also try increasing the charge weight to reduce the impact height.

75gr. is a pipsqueak load and might be the reason it is shooting so high. Even 90gr. to 120gr. 2f in a 20 or 16 bore rifle produces low pressure, when fired with a round ball. A Flintlock or caplock rifle or 20 or 16 bore will easily shoot 150gr. of 2F with a round ball without stressing anything - except perhaps the shooter's shoulder & not much at that. Your Rolling block is considerably stronger than the 'system' used in a muzzleloading rifle, therefore prudent increases in powder charge can help 'regulate' the load to it's sights.

The .020" deep rifling is quite interesting. It is very deep and might be meant for a smaller ball, not a full sized one. In the 70's, it was felt the rifling needed to be deeper than the projectile's size, to accomodate fouling. That is the reason the M71 Mauser had a .457" groove diameter and shot a .446" bullet. By 1884, that thinking had changed for most. Perhaps not all. Your rifle is just over 20 bore (20 bore is .615") on the bore size, and 16 bore in the grooves. That's .040" total rifling depth, .020" per side.

My own Husky 16 bore double-gun, has a 13 bore rifled barrel with .015" rifling depth, yet takes brass 16 bore cases (brass or paper originally, and now plastic. The thin brass case perfectly fits a .705" ball, yet I use a .662" ball in .030" denim patching, or a .690" ball bare. They both shoot well or about s well as straight rifling will shoot.

I really like the looks of your 20's action - supurb! Fantastic? Any 'full-rifle' pictures?



Daryl,

Would you recommend going up to 150gr of 2F in a Model 17 Husqvarna? I just acquired one, and took a chamber casting to figure out what I was working with. Chamber seems to be the standard 50mm case. Rifling starts at about 2.315" deep. Bore groove diameter is .635", 8 lands. Are there any resources for smokeless loads, or is black powder the only way to go in a case like this?

A sidenote. I also bought a Model 17 with a 12.7x44R barrel. I was shocked at how deep the rifling was when I slugged the barrel. Ended up with a .5105" groove and .476" land diameter. I could not believe how deep the rifling was.


Spud303,

Any updates on load development?

Edit: I also found the 20 ga rims on the CBC brass to be too large in diameter for my rifle. Going to have to turn them in the lathe.

Thank you,
Brandon

Edited by brandoninaz (09/10/15 12:17 PM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: brandoninaz]
      #271571 - 10/10/15 03:22 AM

That much powder would not be fun to shoot. As these guns were designed for round ball (IIRC), I'd think up to about 120gr. might be all that will fit the case - in the Husky. I was shooting only 3 drams in my 13 bore Husky, about 82gr.FFG (real BP).

Due to the rifling depth, a smaller ball and heavy cloth patch might be the best approach. I say this due to the depth of rifling and the very real possibility of severe lead fouling with a groove size ball.

As to the 12.7x44R which is very similar (the same?) to a .50/70 - the appropriate bullet would be 350gr. to 450gr. and around 70gr. FFG.
There might be more info on the Swedish Forum at "Gun Boards"

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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brandoninaz
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Reged: 22/02/10
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Re: Husqvarna Mod 4 RB 20 ga [Re: DarylS]
      #271584 - 10/10/15 09:43 AM

Daryl,

Thank you for your response. I have a .60 cal Lee ball mold, and I already ordered myself a groove size ball, so we'll see what happens with them. I'll start a post of my own to track my results as time permits; school and work leave me with very little time for reloading, let alone daylight shooting hours.

-Brandon

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