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Sville
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Mauser 98 from 1925.
      #178456 - 06/04/11 04:14 AM

I am offered to buy a Mauser 98 mechanism with a octagon barrel. Its octagon halfpart and then the rest is round. It looks alright inside. The man who is selling it is a good technician and has his own gun store, in the past he worked at Kongsberg, Norway. It will be polished and blued. The calibre is 10,75x68. Its made september 1925. The price is $920. What about the calibre? The price? Anything? Grateful for advice. //Staffan









Edited by CptCurl (04/05/11 08:51 PM)

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dons
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: Sville]
      #178461 - 06/04/11 06:43 AM

10.75x68 was the largest Mauser designed cartridge and was developed for big game such as elephant & rhino. The ammo is scarce and expensive. If the action is smooth and the bore is good, the price doesn't scare me. It could be turned into a very nice sporter. It looks like a Suhl product with a barrel by Wilhelm Kelber. Axel will probably jump in here and add more insight.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: dons]
      #178463 - 06/04/11 08:51 AM

I thought S&B still made ammo in this cartridge (could be wrong though)?

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xausa
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #178465 - 06/04/11 09:13 AM

It looks as though a FN bolt has been substituted for the original Oberndorf bolt. I don't know why this would have been done, since there is evidently no other alteration to allow scope mounting.

I would have the headspace checked to make sure this substitution did not creat a problem.

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9.3x57
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: xausa]
      #178470 - 06/04/11 12:00 PM

The whole thing is a cobblejob.

Finish is rough, bolt replaced as xausa says {no 1925 Mauser hs one lik that...} and caliber is rare and sort of "cultish" {OK if you like it...}.

I'd offer him $350 and not a kronor more.

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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #178481 - 07/04/11 12:05 AM

Yes, I'm with 9.3 on that barreled action - it's worth $350US maximum - not more. At that price, I'd buy it, although at #350.00, it's still a bit higher than I think it should be.

You're sure the bore is goog? - all that emery work on the outside of the barrel and action front shows it was probably quite rusty at one time. Conditions are usually worse, inside.

Nice calibre - love to have one.

Incidently, the 10.75x68 ctg. shown does not appear to have been made on the 8x68S Magnum case. The 8x68 I now, has a .522" base diameter, only .010" smaller than the belt on that .375H&H round. I have made many 8x68 and 9.5x68 cases from .375H&H brass by triming to length, necking and turnintg the belts to .522". It works perfectly - and no, they aren't too weak ahead of the belt.

The ctg. shown appears to have the smaller .474"(average) head more commonly associated with the 9.3x62. Could be an optical illusion?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (07/04/11 12:12 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: DarylS]
      #178486 - 07/04/11 02:39 AM

max. base diameter for the 10,75x68 is 12,57mm so there is no case for an easy conversion. btw, the 8x68 have a max base diameter of 13.00mm. unfortunately since RWS has dropped this classic round 20 years ago now there is no mayor ammo maker for this round. horneber make brass but only from time to time.
I dont know if the website is up to date but here in was a Gustav Genschow with scope for 6900 danish kroner, under 1000 euro iirc
http://www.huntershouse.dk/kat408-Rifler/side645-G.G.-Co.-%E2%80%9CKaba%E2%80%9D.html


--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/11 08:51 PM)

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Sville
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: lancaster]
      #178493 - 07/04/11 06:13 AM

Thanks for your opinion an advices. I was a bit suspicious about the bolt, it didn´t look alright to me. I will not buy, I think the calibre will be a problem. We have so many cheap Husqvarna 146 and 640 with FN 98 that I can buy and build something else instead.

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4seventy
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #178498 - 07/04/11 08:38 AM

Quote:


and caliber is rare and sort of "cultish" {OK if you like it...}.




9.3,
The 10.75x68 is a cartridge which is often underestimated.
The fact is that it's (lighter) bullet is only one thou different in diameter to the .404 Jeffery, and the cartridge can be handloaded to equal the .404's ballistics.
Regarding the case, it is considerably longer than the 30-06, and is also greater in diameter and capacity.
The 10.75x68 is actually as large in diameter at its shoulder, as the 30-06 base diameter! (.470")
The 10.75x68 has a base diameter of (approx) .494" which is larger than the 30-06 by a fair margin.
Case length for the 10.75x68 is 2.670", again that's longer than the 06.

The bottom line is that the 10.75x68 can equal or better anything that cartridges like the 400 Whelen or Brown Whelen can do, and it can be handloaded to equal the ballistics of both the .404 Jeffery and the 450-400 NE flanged DR cartridges.

Photo below shows a 10.75x68 cartridge loaded to .404 Jeffery ballistics using a 400 grain .422" 404 Woodleigh bullet in a Bertram case.
A 30-06 is next to it for comparison, and a SB cartridge box.



Edited by CptCurl (04/05/11 08:52 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: 4seventy]
      #178500 - 07/04/11 11:27 AM

The caliber is fine and certainly not underestimated by me, but only has a cult following. It is as popular as haggis. Some like it, but you won't see it sold in Burger King. Or even Outback Steakhouse... I'd eat it happily, but then I enjoy blutwurst and bear grease on barley bread.

The barreled action of this cob {forget the FN or Zastava bolt} has been leaned on by somebody with lots of time on their hands and a good stack of sandpaper close by.

Sville, the 146 is one of the greatest deals in the history of Gun Nuttism, AKA Kruttsjuke.

Mine is my favorite rifle.

Thanks to your gun laws we have gotten to benefit by those guns here. Great rifles, with far more character and "value" {admittedly a subjective thing} than that tomato stake Mauser.

I am envious when you say "cheap" HVA 146's. Ours are rising in price unagreeably.

--------------------
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4seventy
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #178504 - 07/04/11 03:18 PM

Quote:

The barreled action of this cob {forget the FN or Zastava bolt} has been leaned on by somebody with lots of time on their hands and a good stack of sandpaper close by.




That bolt looks like trouble to me.
It "looks" in the photos that the bolt handle is fully down against the bottom of the receiver notch.
But the bolt body is NOWHERE near fully rotated into the closed position. You can see the guide rib is showing above the extractor.
If that is the case I doubt the gun would even fire, as the bolt needs to be fully rotated/closed for the cocking piece to be able to clear the cocking cam, and allow the striker to reach the primer. CLICK!

Headspace could be interesting as well.

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DarylS
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: lancaster]
      #178524 - 08/04/11 02:41 AM

Quote:

max. base diameter for the 10,75x68 is 12,57mm so there is no case for an easy conversion. btw, the 8x68 have a max base diameter of 13,00mm. unfortunately since RWS has dropped this classic round 20 years ago now there is no mayor ammo maker for this round. horneber make brass but only from time to time.
I dont know if the website is up to date but here in was a Gustav Genschow with scope for 6900 danish kroner, under 1000 euro iirc
http://www.huntershouse.dk/kat408-Rifler/side645-G.G.-Co.-%E2%80%9CKaba%E2%80%9D.html




12,57mm ie: .495" (12.573mm) might be close enough (in the average chambers)to allow .45 basic brass to be used, which is nominally .500" at the base. The rims need to be turned off, of course, and new extractor groove cut - simple stuff with a small lathe, along with the necking necessary - plenty of dies available for that - even .416 Rem dies would probably work as forming dies and the seater might work as a final sizing die. Measurements must be taken to see for sure. It may need polishing or reaming in the neck area.

.68mm is 2.68"(6.81mm) would be easily made from the basic brass - if the chamber allowed the slightly larger diameter- which is likely. A person should measure .416 Rem brass in front of the belt. Belt needs to be cut off and rim cut to desired diameter.

10.75mm - .423" bullets might be a problem nowadays, but a hard cast bullet 350gr. to 400gr. at up to 2,200fps would be decisive.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/11 08:52 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: DarylS]
      #178526 - 08/04/11 04:25 AM

Quote:


10.75mm - .423" bullets might be a problem nowadays, but a hard cast bullet 350gr. to 400gr. at up to 2,200fps would be decisive.



350 grains bullets made from woodleigh, wim degol in belgium,delsing in germany
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=174859&an=0&page=0#Post174859
and hawk bullets in the united states http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm
maybe more. you can also resize any .429 pistol bullet to 10,75 mm in one step.
the better solution for making brass today is the totaly obsolete 10,75x63. Kudue have it and make ammo from 9,3x64 Brennecke brass.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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eagle27
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: lancaster]
      #178551 - 08/04/11 04:14 PM

Couple of points made by 4seventy and Daryl S I think need a little clarifying.

The 10.75 x 68 and the 404 Jeffery as loaded by the Germans were one and the same calibre, the bullet diameter for both these cartridges being 0.423” or 10.75mm (the .404 aka the 10,75 x 73).

The 10.75 x 68 (aka 10.75 Mauser) was only ever factory loaded with 347gr bullets while the .404 was factory loaded with 400gr although a high velocity 300grloading was produced for this cartridge at one stage.

The 10.75 x 68 can be loaded with a 400gr bullet at higher pressures to match the old low pressure cordite .404 loading but note that the .404 factory loads using the more modern cordite and nitrocellulose grained powders were upped in velocity by a 150-200fps.

The 10.75 x 68 can never catch up to the modern .404 both in factory loads or reloads, an impossibility based on the quite different case sizes.

If loading the 10.75 x 68 with the 400gr bullet the OAL will be out of spec if crimping into the cannelure, the 10.75 x 68 having an OAL of 3.165” loaded with its 347gr bullet, and requiring an OAL of 3.320” if crimping a 400gr to the cannelure. While acknowledging that 4seventy is showing an example of this 68mm cartridge loaded with a 400gr bullet, a longer loaded 10.75 x 68 cartridge could present difficulties with throat length and magazine length considerations.

With a well made 347gr bullet the 10.75 x 68 can still be increased in performance with modern loads and higher pressures and should perform well on big game though it will never make it into the realm of the .404.

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4seventy
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: eagle27]
      #178555 - 08/04/11 05:19 PM

Quote:

The 10.75 x 68 and the 404 Jeffery as loaded by the Germans were one and the same calibre, the bullet diameter for both these cartridges being 0.423” or 10.75mm (the .404 aka the 10,75 x 73).




You are most likely correct, but thesedays Woodleigh gives .422" as the bullet diameter for the 404 Jeffery, and 10.75x68 as .423".
As the cartridge pictured is loaded with a Woodleigh bullet, I listed it at it's supplied diameter of .422".

Norma quotes bullet diameter for the 404 as being .423" in their cartridge description, but show it as .422" on their drawing of the 404 cartridge on the same page.

NORMA

Quote:

The 10.75 x 68 can be loaded with a 400gr bullet at higher pressures to match the old low pressure cordite .404 loading but note that the .404 factory loads using the more modern cordite and nitrocellulose grained powders were upped in velocity by a 150-200fps.

The 10.75 x 68 can never catch up to the modern .404 both in factory loads or reloads, an impossibility based on the quite different case sizes.





When I said the 10.75x68 could be handloaded to equal the 404 Jeffery, I was most definately referring to the ORIGINAL ballistics of the 404, that being a 400 grainer at 2125fps in a 28" barrel.
That is the velocity which gained the 404 it's fine reputation.
There is NO WAY that I was suggesting that the 10.75x68 could ever be handloaded to equal what the 404 cartridge (factory or handloads) could be loaded to. (at higher than original pressure)

Quote:

If loading the 10.75 x 68 with the 400gr bullet the OAL will be out of spec if crimping into the cannelure, the 10.75 x 68 having an OAL of 3.165” loaded with its 347gr bullet, and requiring an OAL of 3.320” if crimping a 400gr to the cannelure. While acknowledging that 4seventy is showing an example of this 68mm cartridge loaded with a 400gr bullet, a longer loaded 10.75 x 68 cartridge could present difficulties with throat length and magazine length considerations.




That's true, and of course the same goes for any cartridge which is being handloaded with a longer bullet than what was originally used.

Quote:

With a well made 347gr bullet the 10.75 x 68 can still be increased in performance with modern loads and higher pressures and should perform well on big game though it will never make it into the realm of the .404.



But that is the point, the 404 gained it's rep from it's original ballistics, not from more recent higher than original pressure and velocity loads, and the 10.75 x 68 can be handloaded to equal that original 404 Jeffery velocity, bullet weight, and diameter.

Edited by 4seventy (08/04/11 06:07 PM)

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eagle27
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: 4seventy]
      #178565 - 08/04/11 08:15 PM

4seventy what you have added to my postings is perfectly true and good to debate these things. One of the problems that surfaced with some of the English manufactured .404 rifles were variable bore diameters even down as small as .418". This was not a problem in early days as the bullets were all cup and cores and generally thinner jackets so the bullets swaged down fairly easily and with the low pressure loadings gave no problems in the rifles of the day. I think in deference to this the modern bullet manufacturers have provided reduced diameter bullets. The 10.75 x 68 was only ever produced by the Europeans and standardised at the true.423". My supply of RWS 400gr bullets for my .404 are .423" so the Germans never compromised on diameter for the .404.

As to the .404 making its name on the original ballistics, this is a hard one to debate I think because even in the original Jeffery catalogue of 1905 advertising their new model .404 magazine rifle they speak of a loading up to 2400fps with new flat strip cordite. Kynoch did load to the 2125fps level but also early on loaded to 2225fps. The early German DWM loads were 2300fps with this velocity level being continued into the later RWS loads. When the .404 became famous as elephant control rifles in the hands of some game departments in Africa which John Taylor mentions in his book published in 1948, I would imagine that a good deal of the ammo used could have been of German manufacture as he also mentions other hunters using German .404 ammo.

No doubt the .404 did well at the velocity level of 2125fps but perhaps its name has been embellished most with ammo at the higher velocity levels. Who knows?

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4seventy
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: eagle27]
      #178567 - 08/04/11 09:08 PM

eagle27,
All good information and also very interesting, thanks.
I see Kynoch still lists the 404 at the old 2125fps on their website.
It sounds like the European cartridge manufacturers loaded it up to higher velocity than the Brits, apart from that 2400fps 1905 Jeffery load of course.

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VonGruff
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: 4seventy]
      #178592 - 09/04/11 06:15 AM

You might find this page from the Jeffery catalogue of interest.



Von Gruff.

Edited by CptCurl (04/05/11 08:54 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: VonGruff]
      #178607 - 09/04/11 10:39 AM

VonGruff,
Yes, definately of interest. It's always interesting checking out the original advertising for these fine old rifles cartridges and loadings.
Thanks for posting!

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eljefedouble
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: 4seventy]
      #178839 - 11/04/11 10:05 PM

Those 347 gr projectiles are interesting.Ok, I guess for Asiatic thin skinned game, wonder how they performed on African game like elef and buff?
Thanks Von G, for the very interesting catalogue

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Ben
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: eljefedouble]
      #178843 - 11/04/11 10:33 PM

I think I read that Taylor and Nyschens didn't have much positive to say about the calibre.

But the rifle itself is rather beautiful.

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pablo_mauser_66
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: eagle27]
      #179312 - 18/04/11 09:31 AM

Eagle27 you claim that no manufacturer ever loaded 400gr Projectiles for the 10.75x68, well I have old factory loaded DWM ammunition with 400gr RN ! I also have factory 347-350 from Kynoch and DWM

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eagle27
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: pablo_mauser_66]
      #179336 - 18/04/11 03:30 PM

Quote:

Eagle27 you claim that no manufacturer ever loaded 400gr Projectiles for the 10.75x68, well I have old factory loaded DWM ammunition with 400gr RN ! I also have factory 347-350 from Kynoch and DWM



I stand to be corrected if that is the case although I have never seen any 400gr loadings advertised in catalogues or books such as Ludwig Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles" which covers the field for the original loadings of RWS and DWM. I also spent a year in Germany and a lot of time with a hunting friend who had a vast collection of firearms, ammunition and catalogues in all the German calibres. Naturally i spent a lot of time looking over everything he had. It was he who gave me components for my .404, not the least a quantity of original RWS 347gr flat nose soft points which shoot very well in my .404.

The question I would have as I put in my earlier post is that the spec COAL for the 10.75x68 means a 400gr bullet would have to be seated very deep, impinging on the already limited powder space for the smallish cartridge case (small to bullet weight and diameter)or seated out to the extent that with the usual blunt nose of FMJ or soft nose bullets I could see difficulties arising with the throat or leade not being long enough. There is just such a difference between the 347gr and 400gr bullets. I have not come across any 400gr .423" bullets that did not have the crimping cannelure set for the .404 COAL so again if 400gr bullets were manufactured specially for the 10.75x68, I would imagine they would have a cannelure specifically set for that cartridge?

The bullet weight for 347grs should be shown as 22.5grams or 26grams for the 401gr bullet on any German manufactured ammo box for the 10.75x68. Can you confirm the gram weights?

I have loaded up a dummy 10.75x68 case with a 400gr bullet crimped at the cannelure and it sure looks a better cartridge that the original with it's stubby little bullet but of course making one such cartridge and getting it to fit an original 10.75x68 Mauser might be different.

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pablo_mauser_66
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: eagle27]
      #179338 - 18/04/11 05:14 PM

Allow me an hour or two and I shall dig out the offending Cartridge. I should be able to post a few pics

Cheers Steve

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FATBOY404
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Re: Mauser 98 from 1925. [Re: pablo_mauser_66]
      #179339 - 18/04/11 05:33 PM

I think you will find that Woodleigh will only make .422" bullets from now on for the 404 and 10.75.

I questioned Geoff when I was down there and he said this was the way he was going.

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