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Perry
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Reged: 09/11/10
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Loc: Qld Australia
My 35.303 is Finally Finished
      #174540 - 31/01/11 11:23 PM

Wrapt folks, the 35.303 is done - I picked it up this morning, cost me an indecent amount of cash to drop on a SMLE No1 Mk3 and I don't care. I'm not in love with the sythetic stock but it helps with weight distrubution, it balances beautifully with the mass between your hands and it points - WOW - did I say it points well. The TSI 22" No 5 profile barrel sets it off perfectly. Guess it weighs a tick over 7 pounds without scope.



Out of focus but you get the idea with the Special Interest Arms grooved Picatinny Rail allowing use of the Recknagel open sights. The stocks actually a little low for a perfect cheek weld when using a scope. There is ample clearence with the bolt handle to clear a scope in a set of super low mounts. Looking at a 1 - 5 x 20 or a 2 - 7 x 32 Scope teamed up with a set of Lever Lock type mounts so I can use the irons up close in the thick stuff.



The Lee Rgb .303 dies have been bored and bits from a set of .358 Winchester die's swapped across also. If I buy a new tapered expander for the .358 Winchester dies to replace what was swapped to the opened out .303 dies I'll have a bullet seating die, full length resizing die and a neck sizing die for under $110

Can't wait to hunt with this Rifle. I've wanted this Rifle for a very long time and it's almost been a blessing that circumstance stopped me from hunting all last year - otherwise I could not have afforded this.

Alan Murray from Pine Rivers Gunshop in Lawnton did a top Job, it looks superb for a Clunker, the fit and finish on everything has pleased me no end. Now the fun bit - load development !!

One day a figured walnut stock and a 5 round magazine will give me the Lee Speed Sporter look I like so much

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

Edited by CptCurl (05/02/11 05:07 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Perry]
      #174543 - 31/01/11 11:51 PM

Perry, as I said elsewhere, can you post some photos on how the scope mount bases are affixed?

I know they are a Picatinny Rail grooved to allow open sights to be used.

Bob de Vries made up a set of bases for my QD mounts on my .375 with a groove to also allow the open sights to be used.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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rigbymauser
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: NitroX]
      #174562 - 01/02/11 04:03 AM

..a true personelized aussie outback gun

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Perry
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Loc: Qld Australia
Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: rigbymauser]
      #174572 - 01/02/11 06:49 AM

Morning fella's

NitroX here's a link to the style of rings I'm looking at buying http://theopticzone.com/category/36424/1/mounts-weaver-lever_lok_rings.htm I'm researching and saving furiously again as I want to buy the best scope and ring combination set up I can afford.

I have a set of rings and a Tasco 2 - 7 x 32 Worldclass scope that I will mount up on the rifle for the purposes of load development and then remove and enjoy the Irons until I buy the Quick release rings and a better quality scope

rigbymaster first bloke I showed this too was my long term hunting mate who once upon a time [ pre family's ] we used to drive out 1000 kilometres for a weekend hunt chasin Goats and Pigs. We got the itch again, trouble is convincing she who must be obeyed to loosen the purse strings.

regards Jacko

Edited by Perry (01/02/11 06:51 AM)


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Ben
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Perry]
      #174574 - 01/02/11 07:04 AM

G'day Jacko,

All the best with initiating the new, born-again rifle on the ferals!

Cheers,

Ben


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458Shooter
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Ben]
      #174668 - 02/02/11 07:22 AM

Nicely done, I would expect you to get a little better velocity than the 35 Remington, nothing shabby about that.

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Rule303
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: 458Shooter]
      #174682 - 02/02/11 10:33 AM

Perry the calibre and 10 shot mag should do well on the pigs. Good to see a SMLE action being put to good use.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Rule303]
      #174714 - 02/02/11 03:20 PM

Great medium bore calibre. I reckon a .405 Winchester in a similar project would also be cool.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: NitroX]
      #174757 - 03/02/11 08:49 AM

So glad it came together for you, Perry.

I don't mind the 'plastic' on a rifle that will be used & loved a lot for hunting.

I've a #3 and a #4 that both need 'such' plastic. The #4 should become something in a .358, 9.3 or .375 on perhaps a .444 case, or maybe shortened slightly, 9.3x74 case.

The #3 could turn in 9.3x57 data on a necked .444 case at safe pressures - perhaps that's what to do with both - a .358 and a .416?

Anyway, glad your's came together.

We're, of course, champing at the bit to hear how it shoots and with what?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mehulkamdar
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Perry]
      #174851 - 05/02/11 03:23 AM

Very practical and very nice! Does tell me that it will be really used - here's looking forward to some great hunt reports and hunting pics!

Congratulations and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Perry
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #175483 - 14/02/11 07:11 AM

Range report -

I ended up scoping the Rifle with my Tasco 2 - 7 x 32 and a set of Arctic Fox quick release rings





I still plan on upgrading this scope to a 1 - 5 or fixed power compact scope along the lines of the Nikon African http://theopticzone.com/default.aspx?act=pro&opt=detail&id=2789 as I did have this built as a Scrub Rifle

I loaded up my test loads in batches of 9 so I can shoot 3 x 3 shot groups , monitor the signs and also to run the barrel in before real fine tuning begins. The fireformed cases will behave differently to the necked up unfired .303 Brit also so no use getting ahead of myself. I have always been one to run in my barrels also, I think it does help, many say it does not.

I had to go to crowded Belmont Rifle range today and as a result of the strict rules, fun police and range officials running a tight ship it took me 3 hours to shoot 16 cartridges. Admittedly I was cleaning every shot for the first dozen, as it was not fouling I decided every 2nd , talk about a smooth bore right up - I got one patch that had the tinniest amount of copper fouling. I just ran 4 more copper solvent soaked patches and a bore brush after each patch , and not one bit of copper fouling was evident on the dry patches.

First string was - CCI200 primers, 225 gr Sierra Gameking's and 41 gr of ADI AR2208, which is rebadged as Varget and sold cheaper in the USA than we can buy it even though it's made in Australia - go figure ??? It proved a very light load, recoiled like my 44 mag Lever and as I was fine tuning the scope settings I did not record any groups. It was also what I'd call a dirty load, lots of soot

I ran out of time and only got to shoot 7 rounds loaded with 42 grains. It was not as dirty a load, recoil increased slightly but it still quite pleasant. Straight up this load shot nice round groups. I can not reliably say as the barrel is still running in and loads being developed but I think this .358SMLE will shoot better than I can hold it. Certainly in the vicinity of 1 MOA

The cases fireformed with the shoulder slightly moved forward and much sharper than the standard .303 British. It also blew out with a slightly shorter neck and decreased case taper. I will be neck sizing only and full length resize only if required. I have a feeling that the 35.303 will be happiest with something around 44 grs of AR2208, time will tell though.

Here's a comparison pic of a dummy round next to a fire formed case.



I'll have to wait until next weekend and go back to Belmont to finish running in the barrel and hopefully I'll have time to make a few reloads while out there and start getting Anal about my loads

regards Jacko

Edited by CptCurl (18/02/11 10:15 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Perry]
      #175490 - 14/02/11 12:25 PM

Perry it sounds like you have a good barrel there. Will you chronograph your loads?

Cheers

Greg


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Perry
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Rule303]
      #175505 - 14/02/11 08:11 PM

G/Day Greg, soon as I've settled on a load my rifle likes I will be borrowing a mates chrony so I can run some numbers to satisfy my curiousity, I'll post them as a final update on this project. I'm not one for hotrodding or watching velocity while developing loads.

It should be good for between 2200fps and 2300 fps with the 225's. I guess that puts it in there with a 30.30 trajectory wise so it's not a long range rifle. Still it should be more than capable of dropping Red Deer at 200 yards if I'm forced to shoot that far.

regards Jacko

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin


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ovny
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Perry]
      #175507 - 14/02/11 08:26 PM

The rifle has remained excellent, certainly, good cartridge.

Oscar.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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DarylS
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: ovny]
      #175516 - 15/02/11 03:16 AM

Perry - I'm really happen this has come together for you and you've managed to be able to shoot the gun some.

It's really great the barrel isn't picking up an copper to speak of as well. That is a BIG plus in itself.


Now, some observations and suggestions - judging by the looks of the brass and the amount of difference between unfired and fireformed brass, I'd be giving thought to opening up the necks of new, undfired brass to .375, then necking them down to make a crush fit before firing any more. the fasle shoudler produced by necking to .375 should work just fine with such a small diameter case. If larger diameter is needed, you could quite literally make perfectly fitting brass prior to fireforming if they are necked to .40 calibre first, which is quite straight for a .303 case, then use the die to position the final shoudler exactly where it should be as you size the neck down for .358 bullet and crush fit on chambering.

I am quite concerned as-is, about your brass life due to the mount the shoulder has actually moved foreward. This means the case has stretched at the web on the initial firing. Even .005" is too much for me - the brass has stretched. It might not be enough to feel yet with a bent wire, but is must have stretched.

All that is necessary, is to use something like a .375 Winchester neck expander die, or merely a .375 expander button on your die's threaded shaft. Just screw it down to sticking out the bottom of the die, lube the .303 case and run it up over the button then back it off. Set aside as you do the rest, then change bottons, have the gun handy, and run them into the die, set long, then adjust to get a crush fit on your necksized brass. Only screw the die down 1/4 turn at a time until you can close the bolt with stiff feeling. Nekcing up from .303 to .375 is not too big a step, but if you feel it is, open them to .358 first, then .375. I go from .308" to .430" or .45" in one step - on '06 brass or 8x57 new brass for my .375 wildcat and 9.3x62 or 9.3x57. I've not lost a case yet in doing so with new brass. It is soft enough to 'take the gaff'.

If they are fit to a crush fit as you close the bolt, there will be NO stretching at the web when they are fired andthe case will form perfectly to the chamber. Any stretch at the web will continue each time they are fired until the case separates at the web - common with the parent (.303) case in 1 to 4 firings depending on the rifle and chamber dimensions.

If necked up first to establish a false shoulder as described, with the resulting no stretch at the web and then neck sizing thereafter, the brass should last until you are tired of using the same old cases- of course, trimming and annealing as necessary.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (15/02/11 03:23 AM)


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mauserand9mm
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: DarylS]
      #175531 - 15/02/11 08:57 AM

I didn't think stretching resulting in head separation was an issue with fireforming rimmed or belted cases, providing the headspace is correct. You definitely need to create a "defacto" headspace shoulder in rimless cases.

Normally the case will stretch because the firing pin will drive the entire case forward (minimal amount if the headspace is correct) and then the gas pressure holds the forward part of the case against the chamber and pushes the solid case head back against the boltface, stretching the brass just forward of the web (where the solid head becomes the start of the case wall ie the brass "thin" brass starts).

If the headspace is good on a belted or rimmed case, and the brass doesn't fill the chamber (ie as in fireforming from another cartridge) then the case will mainly blowout to fill the chamber. With tight headspace the case head will start and finish in the same place so there should be negligable stretching.

Rimless cases with small (ie weak) shoulders have to be checked for stretching, even with good headspace because the weak shoulder is set back by the force of the firing pin as it is forced into the front of the chamber - this effectively increases the headspace at the instant of firing. Two example cartridges that do this (from my limited experience) are the 8x57 and the 505 Gibbs. I have a couple of 8mms and the cases will either die from neck splits or incipent head separation, but I still get around 10 loads out of them. I know a guy with a 505Gibbs and, even though he has set his FLS die up for minimal resizing (to suit his rifle), he only gets 5 or 6 firings out of his cases and they all fail due to incipent head separation.

I never had head separation issues with strong shoulder cases eg 308, 30/06, 6.5x55, 270, 7x57.

I know some people that have had 303s with bad headspace and have used the shoulder for headspace, like in a rimless case, but the shoulder is still relatively weak and case life not good.

Edited by mauserand9mm (15/02/11 09:03 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #175535 - 15/02/11 09:45 AM


It would be nice to think the case merely blows foreward at the neck/shoulder joint - unfortunately it doesn't always happen there, seems rarely happens there, but below the shoulder and frequently right at the web.

When we fireform our wildcats on rimmed cases, we establish a false shoulder for positive headspace just as with a rimless case. Failure to do that, results in poor case life due to constant stretch every shot with resulting lengthening of the case at the neck - requiring frequent trimming.

An Example: A Ctg. with the weakest sloping of shoulders, ie: Hornet and Bee, with loads that some people cringe about, fired from CZ's and Rugers, loads that match the .222 and .223 for speeds, have lasted 17 firings and only needed annealing. No stretching - ever.

When necking .22 Hornet's down for .17AH cases, we establish a false shoulder to headspace on, for a crush fit. that way, the cae merely blwos outward, not stretching foreward as would happen if the shoulder was not prelocated.

The brass fitted before being fired, and was only neck sized afterwards - never touching nor needing to touch the shoulder - no bumping, no FL sizing - ever- standard .22 Hornets, .218Bee's or the .17Cal variants.

Same deal with larger wildcats on rimmed or bleted cases - always use shoulder to bolt face for tight headspace.

It is common knowledge with wildcats or amongst wildcatters that in making the brass fit case head to shoulder before it is fired, it will last much longer.

If you wish to ignore this - that's just fine - it is only a suggestion to help your brass last.

Buddy Keith, who shoots a LOT of .303, has great caselife and does not spare the horsepower, expecially in his P-14's. You cannot use once-fired brass for this, only new brass, as once fired and stretched, it is of little or no use, it's already ruined.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: DarylS]
      #175542 - 15/02/11 02:39 PM

I can't say I agree with everything you said there and don't want to start an arguement, but someone (with a metallurgical background) once pointed out to me that it takes significantly more force to stretch the brass case than blow it outwards. (It was in response to me thinking that the force of the reloading expander ball in a resize die contributed to case lengthening).

While minimising brass sizing operations will help with brass life - I'm not sure that the shoulder formed on the 22Hornet and Bee variants is actually doing all that much, unless it is a sharp and largish shoulder and the headspace on the rim is excessive, or rather if the rim headspace is good then shoulder positiion isn't going to make any significant difference.

I agree 303's can have good case life but only if the headspace on the rim is correct. You won't be able to set up effective shoulder headspacing on the standard 303 case because the shoulder is too weak and the case will head separate after a relatively low number of reloads.

I guess what I'm saying is that if Perry's rifle headspaces correctly on the rim then what he did to firearm was totally adequate and should not affect case life wrt head separation. It also means that if his headspace is out then he won't be able to effectively use shoulder headspace on this cartridge.


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450_Ackley
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #175548 - 15/02/11 05:25 PM

I suppose time will tell on this one, but every bottlenecked cartridge I load for, I make headspace on the shoulder, and that includes rimmed, rimless, semi-rimmed, rebated and belted mags.
When I shot service rifle with a SMLE, it was not at all hard to make a 303 headspace on the shoulder.
I can even get my 450 Ackley to headspace on the shoulder, and it's got next to no shoulder. Even old Elmer Keith never had a drama with his 400 Whelen.
I even necked up 30-06 to 358 and back down to 338 for my 338-06, just to get the crush fit when the bolt was closed.
In reality, the belt on belted mags, for me, is just there for looks and serves no real purpose at all.
From my experience on this one, I've got to agree with Daryl.

DC


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Perry
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #175566 - 15/02/11 10:17 PM

Daryl and mauserand9mm, thankyou for your discusion, very informative.

Well fella's you have exposed just how little I know about reloading and wildcats. I have experience reloading .357 and .44 mag in my Lever Rifles, thats it. I'm doing something right there as I'm up to 16 reloads with the .357 cases and they are showing zero signs of wear and tear.

I am aware of the case life issue's with the .303 British and only a basic knowledge of the stresses around forming cases. As for headspacing,chamber dimentions etc I am on a learning curve and continually cross referencing any info I read.

On thursday after work I am taking some fired cases and a dummy round back to the Gunsmith who put my Rifle together to talk further with him about my Rifle. He did tell me he headspaced the Rifle with a No Go Guage. The bolt is also tighter to close than your average SMLE and needs to be worked quite smartly to chamber a round that last 1/2" I feel this is due to the chamber being tighter back towards the Rim and not all to the cock on closing of the bolt if you get my meaning.

Trim too length of 2.188 remains unchanged on the once fired brass.

Unfired case measure .379/.380 case neck dia and .454 immediately in front of the rim and .399 / 400 immediately behind the shoulder

Fired cases measure .384 case neck dia and .449 immediately in front of the rim. I guess this explains the tight closing of the bolt. They measure .401 immediately behind the shoulder.

It's hard to be precise but mid case the taper appears to have expanded about .003 over unfired

These measurements are not as pronounced as I expected as the by the naked eye things appear to have changed more.

Daryl or anyone else considering the above, some questions -

I have been informed that when necking the .303 case up to .375 the shoulder disappears on the .303 Brit and on some cases causes a larger than chamber bulge where the shoulder used to be due to the brass changing thickness in this area. Case reaming or turning sometimes being necessary.

Unrelated to the question but the 375.303 suffers poor feeding from the SMLE magazine. These 2 reasons are why I did not go with this calibre conversion - to keep things simpler and cheaper.

If I choose to follow the necking up advice that Daryl has suggested am I in danger of causing the brass thickening and the larger than chamber bulge even after I have resized back to .358 ?????

I am most definetly keen to achieve excellent case life and enjoying my introduction to Wildcats.

regards Jacko

--------------------
"To my deep mortification my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' " -Charles Darwin

Edited by Perry (15/02/11 11:17 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: Perry]
      #175575 - 16/02/11 01:40 AM

.384 neck diameter is good - only .004" expansion over unfired (I assume loaded)

.454" unfired vs. .499" fired - yes- tight chambering to squeeze the case down.

A .401" shoulder is normal.

A .455" to .457" base at the rim in a fired case would be quite normal. That is why once fired .303 brass usually makes good .458 cal. bullet jackets. John Buhmiller used to call them his mouse-hole makers.

Necking to .40 cal. removes the shoulder completely to a straight case.

Necking to .375, then back down in your die to form a brand new ie: false shoulder is what I suggested. Even if they necked out straight, this is what to do. Your sizer will remove any 'bulge' - do not worry about that. No - the brass will not thicken.

Creating false shoulders for proper case fit removes or reduces problems, it does not create them - as long as your FL die is properly made, it will reduce the case to slightly smaller than our fired size. That is normal.

As long as the tight base doesn't give you any problems, I wouldn't worry about it - that-is, as long as you can chamber them OK - otherwise, I'd have that rectified.

I am in no way attemting to start anything. I was only making suggestions to help with brass life. If you wish not to follow, that's fine - it is something I do automatically with every new rifle - check chambers and make the brass fit prior to shooting them.

SAAMI and CIP standards were VERY slack. They allow way too much latitude in case and reamer sizing - just went through this on a Swedish gun forum - with 9.3x62 specs and standard rifles.

Those who let the belt and rim or FL die look after their headspace, have poor case life. This is normal, but doesn't have to be.

Edited to include FL die in the last sentence. THAT is where 99% of heaspace slop in rimless and belted cases comes from.

Edited by Daryl_S (16/02/11 02:10 AM)


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mauserand9mm
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: DarylS]
      #175610 - 16/02/11 09:01 AM

I do agree with the last statement regarding full length sizing and rimless cases. Most FLS dies will size too far in most instances, if you set it up according to the instructions only. They have to size to minimum headspace dimensions to cater for all possible firearms that the brass could be used in, which means in many instances the brass is being resized too far and creating excessive headspace and poor case life wrt incipent head separations.

FLS dies need to be set up to suit the rifle and this is easy enough to do once you have some fired brass to test the die settings with - only resize as far so that chambering of the case results in slight resistance when closing the bolt (you know the shoulder is contacting the front of the chamber that way). Many people are aware of this and many aren't.

(Sidenote: There are also FLS dies available for using brass in semi-autos where some extra headspace is required to ensure reliable feeding. The dies will resize the headspace length below normal. Brass is generally only fired once and then discarded because it will likely have the tell tale ring above the web. Having said that, when I had my M14 [back in the good old days] I still set my FLS die up to suit the rifle and never had a malfunction and got good case life - about 15 reloads if I recall correctly.)

450 Ackley - what sort of life did you get out of your 303 cases? I've never seen better than 5 or 6 reloads where headspacing was done on the shoulder (only because it was excessive off the rim).


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450_Ackley
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Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #175630 - 16/02/11 03:51 PM

I never ran flat out loads in my number 3's, but at a guess, I'd say 6-8 loads would have been about it, with Winchester brass.

DC


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mauserand9mm
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Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #175631 - 16/02/11 05:11 PM

Okay, okay I re-read the post and you guys are right. Using the shoulder in a rimmed or belted case is a good idea if there is excessive headspace in where it is supposed to headspace against. In a weak shouldered case this still wont get you good case life, but better than without eg

303 with excessive headspace on rim - 1 or 2 reloads
303 with excessive headspace on rim but using shoulder for headspace point - 7 or 8 reloads
303 with correct headspace on rim - 15 to 20 reloads
303 with correct headspace on rim and using shoulder for headspace point - no difference to previous

Perrys rifle sounds like it has tight headspace on the rim and should get 15 to 20 reloads (guess)

If I'm right someone can buy me a beer, if I'm wrong I'll probably have one anyway


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26510
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My 35.303 is Finally Finished [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #175666 - 17/02/11 03:50 AM

Me too - beer, that is.

Doubt more than 4 or 5 - but depends a lot on the loads used and amount of sizing.

Brass fired will fit better after being fireformed, as it should actually shrink .001" under chamber size, which is normal.

I do think I'd have it opened up to proper size though. A split rod and emery will do the actual work, with some skill in it's use. I've done this on a couple .17AckBee chambers that were cut undersize with perfect results.




--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (17/02/11 04:03 AM)


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