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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Woodleigh failures?
      #17369 - 29/07/04 05:55 AM

I've been talking to some people lately about 350 grain Rhino bullets compaired to Woodleighs 350 grain bullets for use in .375H&H. Here in Norway last year there were quite a lot of the Woodleigh RN bullets that didn't hold together, and this was even mentioned in a few magazine articles.
As I've been told by Ray in some PMs that we've been sending eachother, he's had no failures in the numerous buff and eland he's used this bullet on.

My question is; have any of you heard or experianced failures with the .375/350 grain RN Woodleighs? Failure as in the lead seperating from the copper and each going their seperate ways...

Any and all bullets can "fail" given the "right treatment", but it appears that more than one would expect had problems here in Norway. Could it have been a bad batch that was sent up here?

Erik D.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: EricD]
      #17374 - 29/07/04 07:49 AM

I may be mistaken,(but I don't think so), but I read an article that a year or two ago there were some problems with the Woodleigh RN bullets not holding together. This has been corrected with their newer runs.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: EricD]
      #17386 - 29/07/04 11:36 AM

There were reports the jackets on some bullets were thickened for this reason. Myself I haven't used the 350 gr .375 yet.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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BFaucett
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Reged: 13/01/04
Posts: 451
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: NitroX]
      #17390 - 29/07/04 01:15 PM

I don't know about the .375 350gr bulets, but the .416 410 gr bullets did have their jackets strengthened.

From Woodleigh's web site:


Comparison of MK1 (Cat. 37 on the left) and new MKII (Cat. 37A on the right) jacket thickness of 416 Rigby 410gr SN.


416 Rigby 410gr MKII (Cat. 37A) projectile recovered from buffalo. Retained weight 97% when fired at 2300 fps.

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/

-Bob F.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: EricD]
      #17401 - 29/07/04 09:07 PM

I know Doctari's article in the Accurate Rifle sings the praises of the 350 grain bullet for the 375 and this may be true for some bullets but using Woodleigh softs for much of anything seems like a giant step backwards.

Nosler broke the bullet performance barrier and others have followed suit (e.g. Swift). It just doesn't make sense to me to not use a partitioned or solid base bullet anymore, regardless of whether they have bonded front lead cores.

Admittedly I am more concerned about the 350 gr. solid, and I hope that Woodleigh has toughened those. That will be even more critical as being longer relative to diameter it is going to be more easily bent, all else being equal.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
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Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: BFaucett]
      #17404 - 29/07/04 09:17 PM

The .375s were toughened up as well.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3580
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #17418 - 30/07/04 01:52 AM

Never heard such nonsense. I've been using Woodleighs since long before they were even bonded, and never had a core seperate. All my mates concur. Its just not possible with the current bonded-core bullet. You can turn them inside-out if you push them fast enough, but they still hold together right to the last millimetre of bullet-shank. I'll toss up a few photos on the weekend, though I would have thought board-members would be sick of seeing pics of perfectly-mushroomed Woodleighs by now!

BTW, the thickened jackets were introduced to cater for the very high velocities becoming trendy in American cartridges (Weatherby .378, WSM, etc). It was a response to over-expansion, NOT core seperation.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Loc: Idaho
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: Marrakai]
      #17427 - 30/07/04 04:31 AM

Marrkai,

Your spot on my man, and the Woodleigh is as good a bullet that has ever been manufactured, as good as any partition, and those that condem them simply have not used them, plain and simple....

The bonding method is fool proof as far as I can tell and I have shot a bunch of Buffalo, Bison and elk with them not to mention a dozen or so Eland, and various plainsgame..

Some years back in Man Magnum magazine, a particular batch of Woodleighs got on the market and caused about a half a dozen problems, all kills but less than perfect results, a case of faulty copper, that can happen to anyone and has happened to Nosler in the past.. Can't be prevented...I contributed to that Man Magnum ariticle btw...

I recall a post wherein the shooter claimed bullet failure because his bullet smashed the spine of a Buffalo and wadded up in a huge ball, and stopped on the off side skin..thats not failure and it killed the bull instantly..The spine of a Buffalo and Eland will make a mess out of all bullets if it gets enough of the spine, some come apart and some wad up terribly but hold together and that is good performance when the wad up but hold together...One needs to know what bullet failure is....I have a box of recovered Woodleighs from Buffalo and have posted them on these boards, they expand greatly but they hold together and theys kill extremely well...

All companies have bad batches of bullets, few admit it but they sure do...I have had failures with Swift on one ocassion, with Hawk every time I use them with modern calibers, not with old Win. calibers...I have seen two Noslers fail and checked the box and they had cracks in the jackets...Witnessed a tungston speer solid break in half on a buffalo..it happens.

In my 416 I use Woodleighs 450 gr. PP bullet and the Nosler 400 gr. bullets with excellent results and I get two holes most of the time...Use them for hunting bachlor bulls.

If I herd hunt then I will use Northfork or Woodleigh RN and stop the bullet on the off side skin...

Or at least thats the plan....

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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
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Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: Marrakai]
      #17443 - 30/07/04 08:13 AM

Marrakai,

You're quite a vigerous Woodleigh fan I see! And that's fine with me although you seem a bit over defensive...
But I personally believe that practically no product on earth is infallible! Bad batches can happen...
And it would appear that that's what was maybe sent up here by mistake.

I personally haven't had these experiances, but people I veiw as trustworthy (and they are few and far between...) have mentioned that this was the case with several Woodleigh RN 350 grain .375 bullets. Not "failure" as in turned insideout, but still holding together, but failure as in the lead seperating from the jacket...

You don't need to post any pitures of perfect mushroomed Woodleighs, as I am sure you're right in that everybody's seen tons of that before. And will undoubtably see perfect Woodleighs in the future too!

My question was simply if anyone else had heard of failures, or had any themselves, and it seems that a few might have heard of such incidents.

Thanks for your input guys!

Erik D.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: EricD]
      #17446 - 30/07/04 10:35 AM

Speaking of never using them...

I have had Woodleigh solids bend and push out part of the lead core out the back.

Since I have no further interest in softs, I have not used Woodleighs softs nor intend to. I still believe there are none better than the solid base or partitioned bullets. What I don't understand is why Woodleigh hasn't followed with same.

But the solids work sometimes and sometimes not so well. Failures? Probably couldn't call them that, but there are better ones out there.

I would have to give Woodleigh credit for offering solids that no one else does, and so I use them.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: Will]
      #17447 - 30/07/04 10:53 AM

Will, what is your favorite make of solids?

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Learn from other people's mistakes - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: Ingwe]
      #17452 - 30/07/04 12:31 PM

I have had the best performance (luck?) with the Speer AGS solids. I know, they are grossly expensive. But I have a lifetime supply and it doesn't matter how expensive they get or whether they quit making them!

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_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: Will]
      #17459 - 30/07/04 05:25 PM

In reply to:

I still believe there are none better than the solid base or partitioned bullets.



So Will, does this mean that you have never had less than perfect performance from partitions or solid base bullets?

Tell us about the solids that bent.
What cartridge-bullet-velocity-distance etc?
What animal and where did the bullet hit and what damage did it do?



Edited by 4seventy (30/07/04 08:20 PM)

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Les
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Reged: 04/05/03
Posts: 33
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: EricD]
      #17522 - 02/08/04 04:59 PM

Well I'm glad I viewed this posting, I was in my local gunshop not more than 2hrs ago mentioning to the owner that I've had my first Woodleigh failure, not from breaking up but from non expansion, a perfect 80mtr shoulder hit on a adult Sambar hind out of my 375H&H, (270gn PPSN ) a day and a half later I found the hind some 300mtrs from where I shot it (dense bush) the entry hole was the same size as exit hole, the shoulder blade had a nice .375 hole in it...hhhmmmm....Les

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4seventy
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Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: Les]
      #17523 - 02/08/04 05:26 PM

Les,
Sounds more like a chest (lung) shot than a shoulder shot to me!
Was the shoulder joint/s hit and broken or was there just a hole through one shoulder blade?
Bullet performance should not IMO be judged on entry and exit hole size as this can sometimes give VERY misleading ideas.
Have you chronographed your load and if so what is the velocity?
What path did the bullet take through the animal?



Edited by 4seventy (02/08/04 05:55 PM)

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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: EricD]
      #17536 - 03/08/04 06:52 AM

I have just started reloading with Woodleigh bullets, but I have not used them yet on game. For me they represent the best bullets to use in a double rifle.

I've heard a few guys complain about Woodleighs, and they are normally Barnes bullets fanantics. They also use Barnes bullets in double rifles, which I wouldn't do personally...



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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Woodleigh failures? [Re: Chasseur]
      #18537 - 28/08/04 07:02 AM

I have based my posts on the extensive use of the Woodleigh 350 gr. 375 and the Woodleigh 450 gr. 416 not on someone elses story of failure..In fact I was the first one to field test those two bullets in African on quite a few Buffalo....

I have used Woodleighs for years on dangerous game in various calibers such as the 450-400, 404 Jefferys, 505 Gibbs, 470 N.E. and 458 Lott , and only had one failure..Thats a good track record and I don't consider that going overboard on woodleighs, I am just reporting what you asked..I have a box full of expanded woodleighs that have been taken from game, not some sand box....

If I like a product then I will give it my all, if I dislike a product I will hammer them, you can bet on that. I'm in accord with Ross Seyfreid who said when anyone tells me a Nosler ( I will add Woodliegh and Northfork to that) I will take that with a grain of salt, until they prove it too me..

I suspect some bullets of any make fail because the were used on game that they were never intended to be used on..I have had Noslers, Corelokts, Hornadys, and many others fail when using a big bore on Impala, Hartebeest ands other plainsgame, of course they wont open unless you get a lot of big bone, then again they don't really need to as they still kill and leave a good blood trail..I use solids on plainsgame for camp meat...

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