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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Handloader52
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Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum
      #172624 - 04/12/10 11:26 PM

What is the general consensus on the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum. Did they cut back the bottom recoil lug to make room for the longer cartridge, or was that action made for the .375 H&H length cartridge?
Keith

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9.3x57
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #172631 - 05/12/10 03:48 AM

The early-mid-60's gun I've seen was merely an opened up commercial FN 98 .30-06-length action with the common thick stock of the day, quite similar in fact in overall appearance to my son's FN .270. The main difference ws in finish, where the stock had a thicker, shiney "varnish" of some sort.

Nice gun IMO. Beware, tho. Those experts can help us, but I believe a few may have been fitted with salt wood? I don't recall 100% if any of the bolt guns were.

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wjw
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: 9.3x57]
      #172649 - 05/12/10 12:39 PM

The .375 H & H Browning Safari I have in my shop is a standard FN action opened up with the Browning bolt stop. The extractor is like the Sako and the ejector is aplunger in the bolt face. The action is a push feed. Most of these I have seen have the standard Mauser/FN control feed extractor.

This one has a salt cured stock and the pitting damage below the stock line is significant.

Bill

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Homer
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: wjw]
      #172662 - 05/12/10 07:57 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Handloader 52, my .404 Jeffery is based on an FN Browning Safari action, which was originally chambered in ? caliber.
Next time I have it out, I will have a good look over it as I'm not intimately familiar with this aspect of the action. A mate of mine (who just happens to be Jumbo hunting in Africa at present), has an original FN Browning Safari, in .375 H&H Mag. But again, I'm not familiar with this aspect of it either.
What I can tell you is, these actions have no thumb cut-out, in the left bolt lug race way.
Also, the left bolt race way is not a true copy of the Mauser design, as it is open at the very front of the race way, where it meets the rear of the barrel!

Apart from that, these actions appear to be a copy of the Mr Mauser, M98 controlled feed action and like just about everything that FN and Browning make, it is very well finished!

I hope to get back to you shortly with the above detailed info.

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Handloader52
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Homer]
      #172665 - 05/12/10 09:48 PM

I'm in the process of buying one made in 1970. At first glance it looks like any other FN Mauser, except this one is a push feed with a Sako style extractor. Gun is supposedly in 95% condition...we'll see soon enough. Problem is I can't find out any info on this type of action.
Keith

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #172667 - 05/12/10 11:08 PM

Some of the Browning Safari rifles were made on the Sako action. Yours may well be a Sako. If it is push feed with the Sako type extractor it's certainly not an M98. A photo would help.

Curl

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Handloader52
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: CptCurl]
      #172670 - 06/12/10 12:34 AM

CptCurl,

Yep, I recognized it was not a M98, but what I wanted was a .375 H&H in near new condition and at a really good price. I normally am a "M98 snob" and all my other guns are either Arg., FN or Mark X Mausers. But this one seemed worth the risk. Here are the pics of the action:





The seller states the action has no markings on it whatsoever except a Belgium proof mark which is also on the barrel. And the barrel is marked below the rear sight "Made in Belgium". According to online research (always problematical) the gun is FN built, but I know that during this period Browning was using Sako actions on almost all their other light and medium weight rifles, so why not the heavy calibers as well? However, not even the Blue Book addresses this question.

Keith
410-693-9265 cell

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/10 01:22 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #172673 - 06/12/10 01:19 AM

That's not a Sako. I think it's a simplified 98. Others with more knowledge than I can answer.

I've seen Browning rifles with actions similar to this one but with a claw extractor and CRF. The difference in them and a M98 was the interesting bolt stop/release Browning used. Here you have the same bolt stop/release, but no claw extractor. I've not seen one like that.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: CptCurl]
      #172674 - 06/12/10 01:34 AM

I've seen this action also and hope somebody can give us some actual production information on it.

This is NOT the action I referred to above which was a basically stock FN action.

The one here plugged along in the style of many of the day; cheapening production of the 98 and then calling the mods "improvements" in marketing material.

All the companies in the late 50's-60's were heading the same way.

HVA, FN, Rem, Win, Savage, SAKO, etc.

The only action of the whole ilk that I think might actually have BEEN an improvement was the SAKO L46 and later long actions. That action is utterly superb and gets no where near the acclaim it deserves IMO.

Two companies sort of robbed SAKO ideas IMO; FN as seen here and Weatherby with the Vanguard action, which is actually not a bad action. The Vanguards actually look like a SAKO and I suspect it was Weatherby's experience with SAKO's that led them there?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Handloader52
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: 9.3x57]
      #172679 - 06/12/10 01:50 AM

My hope is that the action is made for the longer .375 H&H and not made to fit like Interarms did by cutting into the bottom recoil shoulder to accommodate the longer magazine box. If it is made to fit the longer cartridge then it will be a good investment, allowing me to upgun to 458 Lott in the future. Getting a nice Lyman 48 receiver sight as part of the deal ain't bad either.
Keith

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rscott
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #172680 - 06/12/10 02:09 AM

they called that model the 'Hi Power', did they not? FN made, push feed,Sako type extractor.

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DarylS
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: rscott]
      #172688 - 06/12/10 04:45 AM

That is a 98 FN action- I've never seen one without the extractor, either.

A picture of the bolt's nose would probably show a Sako -type extractor, which would work fine & actually matches the bolt-stop release.

A MOST interesting action.

Stock and finish is typlical Belgium Browning. I just re-did a friend's .30/06 Browning - matching the factory finish (which he wanted) was a lot of work. It is finished like a 'new' grande piano - although not black - HA!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Handloader52
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #172694 - 06/12/10 07:05 AM

This was just shared with me by a gentleman on The High Road forum.

"According to Frank deHaas, author of "Bolt Action Rifles", Browning used the Sako L-579 action for .243, .308, and other similar length cartridges. The L-461 action was used for .222 type cartridges. The FN built No. 5 Magnum action was for .30-06 length, or longer, rounds. Basically it involved opening up the receiver and lengthening the magazine box to accept the longer H&H cartridges, along with changes to the bolt head and extractor to deal with the belted magnum case.

FN receivers were serialed numbered on the right side of the receiver ring and under the bolt handle stem. They would also have the Belgium proof stamp on the receiver ring, MADE IN BELGIUM stamped on the lower section of the receiver (where you might also find some FN inspectors marks), and possibly a small FN within a circle on the right side of the receiver ring."

It doesn't answer all my questions but it helps. Once the rifle is in my hands I'll be checking on the items he describes.
Keith

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wjw
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #172710 - 06/12/10 03:36 PM

Handloader 52

Photo of Browning and an FN bolt showing the extractors and lack of a guide rib on the Browning Bolt. Browning bolt is above the FN



Bolt faces, Browning push feed is on left.



Bottom of recievers - the upper action is the Browning.



The reciever, except for the bolt stop will be identical to a standard FN without the machining for the bolt guide rib. The reciever and magazine box are opened up forward approximately 1/8th of an inch and you can see this in the photo of the bottom of the recievers. The action fits into a standard 98 Mauser stock with minor fitting and reshaping required for the bolt stop, safety and trigger as well as removing wood forward of the trigger.

It may be a good idea to remove the stock from the mechanism to check for rust and pitting from a salt cured stock.

Bill

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/10 10:14 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: wjw]
      #172714 - 06/12/10 06:20 PM

Browning L70 action, late 60's to mid 70's?

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Handloader52
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: 4seventy]
      #172717 - 06/12/10 10:31 PM

I love this forum! I knew someone out there would have the answer. Thanks.

Now to the next question. Is there any difference between magazine boxes and would bottom metal made for the 375 (like Blackburn or Weibe) be useable. From the pictures above I'd say the bottom metal would be the same between models. It certainly would make sense from a production perspective.
Keith

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Sarg
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: 9.3x57]
      #172723 - 07/12/10 02:15 AM

9.3X57
Im sure the Vanguard action is the Japanese Howa action used in Howa,Smith & Wessen , Marlin , Australian Mountaineer & others with small comsetic changes , been around a long time now !

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9.3x57
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Sarg]
      #172734 - 07/12/10 05:04 AM

Quote:

9.3X57
Im sure the Vanguard action is the Japanese Howa action used in Howa,Smith & Wessen , Marlin , Australian Mountaineer & others with small comsetic changes , been around a long time now !



Sarg, you are right.

It is, but I believe the old SAKO was the inspiration for it. They are similar and the SAKO came first, so I'm thinking Weatherby "borrowed" the design? Just guessing.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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wjw
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #172736 - 07/12/10 05:20 AM

Handloader 52

Compared a standard Wiebe 98 bottom with the Browning and except for the fact that the Browning box has been lengthened, the Wiebe bottom metal looks like it would fit with very minor fitting. If the .375 Wiebe box is lengthened to the front, it will fit. Alternately, the standard box could be lengthened the same as the Browning.

Bill

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9.3x57
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: wjw]
      #172738 - 07/12/10 05:41 AM

BTW:

That is a really interesting comparison of actions. Shows the production efficiencies incorporated in the newer action, with much left identical between the two.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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4seventy
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: 4seventy]
      #172826 - 09/12/10 12:44 PM

Quote:

Browning L70 action, late 60's to mid 70's?



Information on these short extractor models is pretty scarce, but it seems they appeared about 1967.
I don't think that the "L70" actually denotes the short extractor action, but the "70" is possibly the year of production.
I'm pretty sure I've seen an FN 98 actioned Browning also stamped with "L70" after the serial number.
I'll see if I can get some more info on the short extractor action and will post it here if anything interesting shows up.

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Handloader52
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: 4seventy]
      #172965 - 12/12/10 09:37 AM

Well, I received the Safari after having purchased it on line...and I'm sending it back. The stock is what I've been told is "salt wood" and there were two spots of rust damage below the stock line on the left side of the action, between the receiver ring and the bolt stop. An 8-digit number was also scratched into the bottom metal near the front action screw. Other than that the gun was quite nice but when I'm told "it's 95%" I don't expect to see rust damage and numbers hand scratched into the metal. However, let me tell you what I saw that was of interest.

a. The action is marked "L70" in front of a six digit serial number on the right side of the action and again on the right side of the barrel immediately in front of the receiver.
b. The receiver ring is notched at the front directly above (12 o'clock) the front of the magazine, is suppose to provide clearance for the cartridge nose while loading. Interestingly, the receiver ring is not notched for clearance on the right where the nose would be when ejecting live cartridges.
c. Like many other standard (30'06) length Mauser actions converted to 375 H&H, this one had the lower recoil lug (which is also the loading ramp) significantly reduced in depth due to the need to move the front of the magazine forward. It was very nicely done as you would expect from Browning but every other time I've seen this done I get squeamish.
d. The gun had a Lyman 48 receiver sight in new condition. Not a single blemish. Boy oh boy are they hard to find.
e. The biggest surprise was the second recoil lug welded to the bottom of the barrel. I thought I'd see another lug but assumed it would be dovetailed like you see on the Whitworth. Browning did this one right.

Well, thanks to all for your input. I'm really sorry this deal didn't work out. It is a very interesting rifle indeed.
Keith

Edited by Handloader52 (12/12/10 09:38 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #172984 - 13/12/10 01:15 AM

Quote:



"salt wood"

Glad you checked!

not notched for clearance on the right where the nose would be when ejecting live cartridges.

Good catch. Nice observation.


second recoil lug welded to the bottom of the barrel.

Are you sure WELDED? Or brazed. Not sure how welding of a lug could avoid stress relief and heat treatment of the barrel.





Thanks for the followup. These are always interesting learning experiences. Some of the most interesting guns I've bought were ones I examined and sent back...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Handloader52
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: 9.3x57]
      #172988 - 13/12/10 03:43 AM

The reason I say welded is that the barrel is blued and at the junction of the recoil lug to the barrel its the same color blue. No seam is visible and there would be I think if brazing (brass?) rod was used. I discount it being a forged part of the barrel due to machining cost and complexity, but maybe it's all one piece.
Keith

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Homer
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Re: Tell me about the Browning Safari in .375 H&H Magnum [Re: Handloader52]
      #173044 - 13/12/10 09:43 PM

G'Day Handloader 52

I measured up the magazine box on my Browning .404 Jeffery over the weekend and it came in at 89mm. So multiply that by 0.039375" (Thats what 1mm is, in Imperial language) and you end up with 3.504375".

When I get a chance to measure up J.A.'s FN Safari factory rifle in .375 H&H, I'll report in with this dimension.

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
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Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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