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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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CraigK
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa
      #171557 - 17/11/10 06:56 AM

Greetings from South Africa,

I happened upon this site (and a great one it is!) and was quite surprised to see my name mentioned here in an old posting. If the moderator, and you all, would allow me I have a few comments regarding the statements made and would also like to add in a bit of background. In addition to this I would very much like to receive constructive criticism, comments etc.

• South Africa had a change in our firearm legislation in 2004 and it was a stuff up of magnamamous proportions! We had around 750 licensed dealers in 2003 and now in 2010 there are around 60 active dealers in South Africa, I for one retrenched some 20 people.

• There are 7 licensed civilian and military manufactures in South Africa (including us) unfortunately many have closed e.g. MUSGRAVE, VEKTOR, TRUSITO, etc doing business in South Africa is tough, very tough.

• Why did we start making in line muzzleloaders? Because they do not require a firearm licence (most of them) and it can take up to 5 years (or more) for an individual to get a firearm licence thanks to our new law and inefficient licensing system so BANG went out traditional core market.

• Why did our first in lines have a stamped trigger guard? I was involved in a partnership and the majority vote decided that was the way to go. I am no longer involved in said partnership and can now make guns and rifles as I see fit. Most (all?) of the poor features have been done away with and we think we now have a pretty fine muzzleloader at a competitive price.

• How are they made: Just about everything is made in house including our barrels (.177 to 4 bore) and stocks. All our firearms are hand stocked and checkered so each one is basically a custom made firearm.

• What calibres do we offer our in line in? .31 through to 4 bore the .36, .451, .50 and .72 are the most popular.

• What do they cost? from ZAR 7368.00 excl VAT (approx U.S. $1000.00) which is much the same price as a mass produced Pedersoli Rolling Block here in South Africa.

• Do we make “traditional” muzzleloaders? Yes, but these are special orders only. The market here in South Africa is very immature and price sensitive. We would love to make more beautiful English sporting hammer guns and rifles but unfortunately most of our market is still quite happy with a Spanish made Ardesa or Indian made Delli House.

--------------------
Life is too short to shoot ugly guns


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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CraigK]
      #171593 - 18/11/10 04:37 AM

Perhaps in time, a muzzleloading shooting will become popular where traditional muzzle loaders, like the English sidehammer guns, will be in demand.

Until then, I hope you survive as a buisiness.

I note your "life is too short to shoot ugly guns" -
interesting, considering ?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DarylS]
      #171609 - 18/11/10 11:07 AM

It's been many years since I lived there, but isn't black powder more difficult to obtain {legally or otherwise} than smokeless?

If so, does the advantage of the in-line not being muzzleloader offset to some degree by powder restrictions?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: 9.3x57]
      #171615 - 18/11/10 12:33 PM

Oh - the inlines load from the muzzle for sure - loose powder and bullet - then usually a shotshell primer in a holder that the firing pin in the bolt hits. That's for the bolt actioned inlines. In the ones with hammers, the hammer usually hits a firing pin that hits the primer.
Most use a plastic cupped (sabot), copper jacketed bullet.
Some guys shooot full sized bullets, most don't.
Most inlines have difficulty loading the next shot without wip[ing the bore - some are impossible to load without doing that, while some allow shooting 2, maybe even 3 shots before wiping is necessary. Of course, none of them acually leave a lubricant in the bore to soften fouling shot to shot, so fouling continues to build, changing the interior of the bore for each successive shot, which effects accuracy in a negative way - usually.
Some inlines can also smokeles powders while most don't advise it. The odd smokeless powder inline shooting smokeless powder blows into tiny pieces. DOH!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CraigK
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DarylS]
      #171627 - 18/11/10 06:12 PM

Getting a black powder (or suitable alternative) permit generally takes a few days to get as opposed to in most cases a few years for a cartridge firearm so there has been an increase in demand and interest for muzzleloaders of all types. This is primarily why our rifles are styled as they currently are, they are aimed at the South African biltong hunter (biltong is a cured meat which many of us make at home). Our intention was to put an “off licence’ muzzleloader that looks similar to what they are used to in the hunters hands and enable him or her to get out into the field with their own “firearm”. We have used the best materials that we can source to build a STRONG muzzleloader i.e. EN19T (4140) for our barrels and breech plugs and have opted for a hand stocked walnut stock because it looks better and costs less than our locally made synthetic stocks (we did not think it was worth tooling up to make them in house either but we could be wrong?)

At present our laws state that ignition must be by means of a percussion cap or flint though we have managed to get primers being “deregulated” and added onto powder permits as they have been around since the mid 1800’s so they are not “new”. The majority of our muzzleloaders are fitted with #11 nipples or musket cap nipples for those requiring hotter ignition. 209 primers are difficult to extract so as an alternative we have developed an ignition that uses a 6,35mm pistol case as the holder thus enabling one to use small pistol, small rifle or small rifle magnum primers as an ignition source. Our reasoning for going down this road is primarily that it has become difficult to source #11 percussion caps and musket caps are near impossible to find at present and that is not good for business, we need people out in the field shooting and buying more firearms as opposed to skulking at home or in a shopping mall.

Black powder too has become challenging to find as AEL have stopped importing it there is a local alternative SANNADEX which is I think an iron oxide based propellant. We have looked at making black powder in small quantities as well as importing a container load but the shipping and storage costs are somewhat challenging however we will prevail and find a suitable cost effective way forward on this front.

Regarding the use of smokeless powders, we have gone down this road as well and paid a number of “school fees” it can be done without too many problems (our laws do not allow for a nitro powder permit but if you have a cartridge firearm licence obtaining it is not a problem ........) We looked at what some guys are doing in the U.S.A. and decided that we did not like what we saw many seem to use a typical .44 MAG loading which is fine if you stick to lighter bullets but we know that many will want to go heavier and that is where the problems and pressure spikes will start with disastrous effect (and many small pieces, I have always wondered if some of the SAVAGE problems are not lined to this?). We have decided that the best route is to opt for a SLOW burning extruded nitro powder (like our S385) that is typically used in big bore rifles as the pressures are much lower, ignition is better with our 6.35 pistol case.

Yes many muzzleloaders particularly those shooting conical become difficult to load once there is a build up of fowling, we offer our “MARUMO” range of pure lead ”SLIP FIT” bullets which have been sized to our bore diameters thus eliminating most of the problems ( to be lubed by the shottist). We know that lead is going to be banned at some stage so we are looking into alternatives like copper bullets which are annealed so that they are just as soft as lead the only problem is that they are expensive to make.

What’s the long term solution: Get more people involved in shooting and sell more firearms so that we can employ and train more people and do our bit for reducing unemployment in South Africa.

--------------------
Life is too short to shoot ugly guns


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CraigK]
      #171633 - 18/11/10 11:21 PM

Quote:

What’s the long term solution: Get more people involved in shooting and sell more firearms so that we can employ and train more people and do our bit for reducing unemployment in South Africa.




...and maybe, hopefully, get the gun laws changed and loosened up someday?

Might seem impossible, but then Concealed Carry would have been deemed an utter impossibility in the USA just 40 years ago, and now some 40 or so states have legalized it. Who knows.

I sure wish you well in your endeavour.

Alles van die beste, Boet!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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CraigK
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: 9.3x57]
      #171638 - 19/11/10 02:02 AM

The “TOP BRASS” at our firearm registry have got themselves fired / replaced the “new brooms” claim they will sort out our “50 year” backlog within the next 9 months so who knows perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel here in South Africa.

I heard there was a move in the U.S.A. to try and have silencers legalised for hunting and to try and bring you guys into line with us, the U.K., etc as they offer many advantages which include: reduction in noise pollution (game is not scared and nor are the neighbours), reduction in felt recoil, etc, etc.

Regards

Craig

P.S: We can carry a concealed weapon, no problem  .

--------------------
Life is too short to shoot ugly guns


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DarylSModerator
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
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Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CraigK]
      #171640 - 19/11/10 02:48 AM

I can carry a concealed handgun too, in my house, from the lockup to where I clean it & back. Draconian laws indeed. We have a ban on silencers (& blow-guns) which come under the prohibited weapon's laws.

Craig - you've obviously attacked the problems head-on with surprising solutions. one fellow was bragging on another forum that he used 80gr. or 90gr. 4350 in his Savage Inline with 350gr. bullets. I was under the impression suggested loads were using H110 in small quantities, ie: around 20gr. IIRC.

Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: DarylS]
      #171681 - 19/11/10 12:38 PM

Hi Craig,
Wellcome!
Do you have a site?
I would like to see pictures of your guns.
Did you made underhammer guns?
Martin


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CraigK
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: beleg2]
      #171689 - 19/11/10 06:03 PM

Hi Martin,

Thank you, yes we do have a site, it’s a bit primitive (read D.I.Y.) our address is www.mkonto.co.za
We have built a few underhammers in the past unfortunately our PC’s were stolen along with our backups so we need to do some new photos of them.

We have made two types in the past:

A Billinghurst target gun (I have some clients who are standing in a queue to beat me with a stick because I haven’t done any for a while (sorry Sarel) I will get onto it ASAP) complete with a manually adjustable peep sight at the tang and a globe type tunnel sight.

The other is based on ones made by Otis Churchill which is more suited for field use as opposed to being target guns and rifles.

There does seem to be a bit of interest in this type of muzzleloader on the international market but locally our guys are largely ignorant as to just what a great muzzleloader they are as most of them are very price sensitive and are happy with those by LYMAN, ARDESA, CVA, etc hopefully our market will mature and they will see the value in an excellent handmade muzzleloader.

Regards

Craig

--------------------
Life is too short to shoot ugly guns


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beleg2
.375 member


Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CraigK]
      #171697 - 19/11/10 10:27 PM

Thank you very much Craig.
I have been following a forum there and found it very interesting.
Do you know who made some underhammer double rifles?
Thanks
Martin


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CraigK
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: beleg2]
      #171704 - 19/11/10 11:56 PM

Unfortunately no but they should not be too difficult to make, we have made a few of centre fire doubles and are currently busy with a prototype in-line double.

Regards

Craig

--------------------
Life is too short to shoot ugly guns


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CraigK]
      #171748 - 20/11/10 06:01 PM

Hello Craig,

I was the member who originally posted about your muzzleloaders - I was informed about your company by a friend in Europe who is a member here and the context was your Mauser sporters. When I saw the MLs on your website, I posted here as I am a recent muzzleloader convert (and a Born Again one after many years of shooting and hunting with modern guns) and I wanted to know if anyone had pictures of your guns. I am known here as the official pesterer for pictures of fine guns and hunting experiences and you might find me pestering you for these for our forums.

Welcome to the Nitroexpress Forums and do check in often. You will find many kindred spirits in hunting here. Your presence as a reputable gunmaker is most appreciated.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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CraigK
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #171771 - 21/11/10 12:23 AM

Hi,

Good to be here !

I often get photos from clients as well as photos from my own hunts and would be more than happy shareing them with the members if they are interested. I am also always interested in recieving constructive critisism, suggestions, ideas, etc.

Regards

Craig

--------------------
Life is too short to shoot ugly guns


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CraigK]
      #171775 - 21/11/10 02:10 AM

Craig,

We always enjoy pictures, hunt and test reports and build stories and projects. Please do post pictures when you find time and also request your clients and friends to join and do this - you would have seen the many hunt reports and pictures by now as well as our E-zine where we invite articles from our members.

I can assure you that pictures and positive interaction will always be welcome - I am one of the moderators here, and I know that the forum owner, John Hahn, and the other administrators and moderators are as welcoming and supportive a group as you could find anywhere on the net. You will enjoy your visits here as will the friends you make. Yes, it is my not unbiased (though completely factual) opinion that these are the friendliest hunting and shooting forums in the world.

PS You can't get away by mentioning the double rifle that you built and not post pictures and more information on our double rifle forums. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink - here's a hint on what pics and details to post first!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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CraigK
.224 member


Reged: 16/11/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #171797 - 21/11/10 04:55 AM

How do I go about posting a picture here ? Do you have a tutorial on a thread explaining this ?

--------------------
Life is too short to shoot ugly guns


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: CraigK]
      #171855 - 22/11/10 11:46 AM

Craig,

You can find instructions on how to post pictures at this link: web page

If you find this difficult, please let me know. I'll be happy to post the pictures for you anytime.

Thank you again for joining here and sharing pictures and information and Good Hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Freeloader123
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Reged: 23/07/10
Posts: 86
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Re: Bore calibre muzzleloaders from South Africa [Re: 9.3x57]
      #175855 - 20/02/11 03:41 PM

Quote:

It's been many years since I lived there, but isn't black powder more difficult to obtain {legally or otherwise} than smokeless?




There's always a way to adapt and overcome, isn't there? From African Hunter Vol. 15 no. 6:

"We don't have the luxury of pyrodex or commercial black powder in Zimbabwe very often, so we make due by grinding commercial blasting powder to the correct consistency."

If it was easy, everybody'd live in Africa.


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