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Bakes
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Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
A Current Affair
      #17042 - 23/07/04 12:02 AM

Anybody watch the program tonight about the wild dogs in the snowy?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: Bakes]
      #17076 - 23/07/04 10:08 AM

Sorry mate, been out in the dark until late each night.

What was it about?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: A Current Affair [Re: NitroX]
      #17091 - 23/07/04 12:44 PM

Seems the sheep farmers with propertys that boarder the National Park are loosing thousands of sheep a year to wild dogs. The park people say that the dogs arn't breeding up in the safty of the park and the farmers say they are. The farmers are calling for baits to be laid. At the moment the parks have a contractor traping the dogs but it doesn't seem to be enough.

Now if they let shooters into the park.....

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: Bakes]
      #17110 - 23/07/04 11:00 PM

IN your dreams,Shooters are not the answer..
A good aerial baiting program followed up by experienced doggers is the answer.
That means baiting the parks as well as the properties butting on to the parks as well.
The problem in the Snowy Mountains is that tree hugging greeny academics are running the place and are persecuting genuine conservationists to a point where the genuine persons are taking the law into their own hands.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17135 - 24/07/04 11:56 AM

I don't believe in baiting, Although effective it kills to slow and kills non-target animals. Shooters aren't really the total answer but I would think they would be of help and a low cost option. I mean I personaly would go shoot the dogs at my own expense, I know you can't have every man and his dog out there trying to shoot the dogs but a few licence shooters that pass a shooting test (something like what they have in Europe)would be effective.
I can see the poor farmers being inundated with calls from people offering their servicers.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: Bakes]
      #17171 - 25/07/04 08:49 PM

If tags were issued for wild dogs and if the tag was used a bounty paid it wouldn't take long to reduce the problem.

Cost less than an aerial baiting programme too.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: NitroX]
      #17180 - 25/07/04 11:41 PM

I dont believe any of you understand the complexity of controlling the wild dog and the dingo and crosses of both.
Aerial baiting is the front line on dog control followed by trapping.
You are pissing into the wind if you honestly believe you can control dogs by shooting.
Take it from someone who spent a long time in the industry.
Sodium mono flourecetate baits are reasonably target specific and only last until they are rained on ,usually 2 inches of rain will render the bait US..
Have you ever given any thought to the domestic livestock these dogs maim that die a slow lingering death..
Poison is humane compared to this..
Let me assure you the dingo and the wild dogs are breeding in the national parks around the Snowy Mountains and the majority of parkys refuse to do anything about it..
I have first hand experience with this particular problem..
Alan


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17181 - 26/07/04 12:27 AM

Having hunted Wild Dogs in the Bundarrah Valley which abuts the Alpine National Park near Omeo in Victoria, I can tell you they are next to impossible to hunt in the scrub......lots of scrub...lots of cover....not many vehicle tracks!

In this area, none of the dogs are pure-bred Alpine Dingos...all cross-breeds with no conservation value whatsoever!

They can really only be hunted in open country at daybreak by lying up for them near their access tracks from cover...a very hit and miss affair....lots of early starts to no avail.

Electric fences are a waste of money....usually only end up frying a few Wombats!

Trapping is done, but the Doggers will tell you thay are cunning buggers, and they are difficult to trap

Baiting is a worry in settled areas because of the risk to domestic dogs. More than once I have been close to taking my Brittany off to the Vet when she has looked a bit green around the Gills, since I hunt Rabbit and Quail with her in paddocks abutting the Park.

The Cocky's in this area fixed the Wild Dog problem...they gave Sheep the flick and put in Cattle....although they might be regretting this given the current price of Lamb in Melbourne!!!

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Gunnie
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Reged: 22/07/04
Posts: 36
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: A Current Affair [Re: 470Rigby]
      #17225 - 26/07/04 09:47 PM

I spent two years with a dogger in the employ of the NSW Nat.Parks and learned a hell of a lot. But I am 100% against baiting. Can those in the know in this thread put their hand on their heart and stake a years pay on baits being dog specific only and never affecting any other animal, native or otherwise???
The only surgical means of getting rid of them is by shooting or trapping. Either one is labour intensive and no doubt not as efficient as baiting. But there is no room for doubt over what has been shot and that there will be no further effect on any other animal.
Maybe the Hunting & Conservation Group needs to have a long talk with NSW NPWS. Like any feral control program it will not be 100% effective overnight and will take time.
I feel for the farmers and wish there was an overnight cure to the problem, but there isn't! So , instead of the politicians giving themselves yet another pay rise, compensation should be given to the farmers for stock losses.
Hunters make the best conservationists it seems and it's about time the 'drop kicks' supposedly in the know in government agencies, woke up! Get off their lazy fat buttholes and get out on the land. Grow some common sense and help the farmers and our ecosystems!

My rant over...

--------------------
Reach out, way out, one shot & one shot should do the job!

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: Gunnie]
      #17228 - 26/07/04 11:59 PM

YOU WILL NOTE THAT I SAID REASONABLY TARGET SPECIFIC.

THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD.

Pastoralists and graziers are required by law to control all declared vertebrate pests and noxious weeds.

NSW parks are a law unto themselves,what they say and what they do are 2 entirely different things.

And I will add the same thing applies in Queensland as well.

Baiting is carried out to control dingo,wild dogs and hybrids there of and also foxes and feral cats.

There will always be innocent victims in baiting however the number is reduced conciderably when baits are made target specific.

Now its my turn,place your hand on your heart and tell me there are no innocent victims in war.

I've been to war and I know and have seen the innocent victims so dont bother to reply.....

I would be interested to know the name of the parks dogger as I know most of them personally.



--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17231 - 27/07/04 12:34 AM

1080 baiting for foxes usually results in deaths of wedgetail eagles. They are quite rare now in my area.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: A Current Affair [Re: NitroX]
      #17281 - 27/07/04 10:29 PM

For your info :-List of members for the National Wild Dog Controllers Association:

 Bruce Jamieson, “Lakeview”, Ingebyra via Jindabyne NSW 2627.
Telephone 02 64578142.

 John Coman “Akuna” Delegate NSW 2633.
Telephone 02 64588026.

 Tim Russell “Rock Forest” Adaminaby NSW 2630.
Telephone 02 64542499.

 John Ward Countegany via Numeralla NSW 2630.
Can be contacted by telephone 02 64533266 (Darcy Stewart “Boggy Plain” Countegany).

 George Freebody “Arable” Cooma NSW 2630.
Telephone 02 64524590.

 Kerry Wellsmore “Honeyvale” Paupong via Dalgety NSW 2628.
Telephone 02 64565033.

 John Walters “Kinross” Paupong via Dalgety NSW 2628.
Telephone 02 64565057.

 Mick Hedger, 18 Mary Street Berridale NSW 2628.
Telephone 02 64563856

 Scott Guthrie “Station Cottage” Delegate NSW 2633.
Telephone 02 64584561.

 Michael Davis Yass NSW 2582.
Telephone 02 62262507.

 Bill Morris Wee Jasper NSW 2582
Telephone 02 62279637

 Roger Roach, “Gwai-Nee-Bu”, Numeralla NSW 2630
Telephone 02 64533250

 Warren Schofield, Peakview via Numeralla NSW 2630

 Alan McKenzie, 16 Rainbow Way, Dawsville, Western Australia 6210.
Telephone 08 95823182. Email: alnpammckenzie@bigpond.com

 Gordon Moon Victoria
Telephone 03 51550204


 Maurice Moore Tallangatta Victoria 3700
Telephone 02 60715300. Email

 Terry Higgins Heyfield Victoria 3858

 Clive Hodge NSW 02 69488352

 Ian Campbell Tallangatta Victoria RMB 7061 Wodonga
Telephone 02 725259

 George Gregory Heyfield Victoria 3858

 Brian McNamara Corryong Victoria 3700
Telephone 02 60761719

 Ray Lesage Victoria

 Tom Kimber, “Townview” Delegate NSW 2633.
Telephone 02 64588087.

 Bill Dale Western Australia
Telephone 0404819572.

 Andrew McDougall NSW

 Greg Burt Tallangatta Victoria RMB 1897
Telephone 02 60712472

 Geoff Clarke ACT

 Greg Ivone Myrtleford Victoria 3737 RMB 2870
Telephone 03 57535302

 Rex O’Brien Tumbarumba NSW
Telephone 02 69482049

 Ken Coulston Victoria
Telephone 0260775231

 Gary Legg Omeo Victoria
Telephone 03 51591205

 Terry Miller Nhill Victoria 3418 RMB 823
Telephone 03 53929244 Fax 03 53929228

 Peter Lee Bairnsdale Victoria

 Terry Pendergast Moonbah Jindabyne NSW 2627
Telephone 02 64578161










--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17287 - 27/07/04 10:59 PM

Alan

??? Not sure the purpose of the post

My comment was just on local experience where we have found dead wedgetail eagles after bait has been put out.

They have become quite rare in the local area which is a shame as they are such grand birds.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: A Current Affair [Re: NitroX]
      #17297 - 28/07/04 01:29 AM

The point of the post was to get the message across that I have a little experience on the subject,About 40 years worth.
Secondary poisoning is always a problem however a legal bait in WA should weigh aprox 200grms and should contain 4 mg of sodium monofluoroacetate.
It requires a lethal dose of 9.5mg / Kg to kill a wedge tailed eagle.
4 mg is the smallest amount of poison that can be accurately measured.
The baits are not stacked in a pile but spread out over large distances,maybe 8 /mile.
Your boys in SA are either using 1080 incorrectly or are using another poison,most likely strychnine or arsenic.
1080 is also bio degradeable unlike most other poisons.
Al


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: A Current Affair [Re: NitroX]
      #17298 - 28/07/04 01:34 AM

I should add that a big reason for the loss of a lot of native wildlife is because of the amount of chemicals used in agriculture including the wine industry.
Would you agree !

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Bakes
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Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17303 - 28/07/04 02:11 AM

I've heard that 1080 has been banned by most countrys except for use in sewers and ships. The use outdorrs is a no no. Is that true?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #17305 - 28/07/04 03:19 AM

In reply to:

I should add that a big reason for the loss of a lot of native wildlife is because of the amount of chemicals used in agriculture including the wine industry.
Would you agree !



No actually I don't at all.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bushie
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Reged: 24/10/05
Posts: 36
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: NitroX]
      #39880 - 27/10/05 11:06 PM

Alan ,
Looking thru some old posts and came across this one .

Quote :-
I should add that a big reason for the loss of a lot of native wildlife is because of the amount of chemicals used in agriculture including the wine industry.
Would you agree !

Could you please quote the source of the recent research that backs up the claim you make above ? (quotes from representatives of Greenpeace don't count)
I have 18 years in the agricultural chemical industry and can assure you that the effects of registered ag. chemicals on wildlife and the environment are extremely well researched . Any that present significant hazard either never make it the market or (if old products) are deregistered when they come up for review .
For someone that obviously has some level of understanding of the toxicity of 1080 I am amazed that you would consider that the environmental effects of pesticides are not equally well (in most cases better) researched.
As a matter of interest many farmers and station owners in W.A. are having increasing trouble with dingoes and feral dogs . 1080 baits are widely used in W.A. but are only part of the solution . Not all dogs will take baits .
W.A. is beginning to realise the valuable contribution that doggers have made over the years . Shooting will help but realistically an integrated approach is required .

Edited by Bushie (27/10/05 11:24 PM)

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: Bushie]
      #39956 - 28/10/05 05:05 PM

Bushie,18 years experience,so you are still a young person.
In that case you would never have heard of DDT,heptaclor,dieldren,SAP,grim,245T ester,245T amine,picloram,ect ect ect.
Just out of interest where do you come from and what hands on experience have you had especially with vertebrate pests.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: Bushie]
      #39957 - 28/10/05 05:14 PM

A letter I wrote to the Cooma news some years ago.
Prior to moving back to West Aussie I lived in Cooma for some time.


read it a couple of times bushie so that what I've said sinks in , particularly about the doggers.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Bushie
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #39959 - 28/10/05 08:00 PM

Alan ,
44 years and old enough to have heard of all those products and used some of them .
Off the top of my head I believe only one of the products you mention (picloram) is currently registered in Australia . Why ? Because the others have either been proven to cause environmental damage , have user safety issues or because of the agent orange / dioxin scare . BTW , 2,45-T , 2,4-D etc. can be (and is) manufactured now without that contaminant .
You will note that I pointed out that currently registered products are well researched . There is no doubt that some early pesticides were unfriendly to both the user and the environment . They were not subjected to the rigorous testing that pesticides are now , nor were farmers well advised on how to use them safely .
Alan , I hear as much criticism of pesticides as I do of firearms . The reasons people are critical are largely the same in both cases .
FYI I live in Wheatbelt W.A. and outside the 44 years of experience that I have had as a farmer , in related industries and as a hunter I don't claim any qualifications in control of vertebrate pests .
Other pests are a different matter . 18 years with one of the world's largest ag. chem. companies providing advice on how to use their large product range (including personal and environmental safety issues) . Good enough ?


Edited by Bushie (28/10/05 09:04 PM)

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: A Current Affair [Re: Bushie]
      #39974 - 28/10/05 11:04 PM

1.shooting is oppertunistic and not a control method.

2.the reason the dog problem is out of control here in WA is because when the APB handed over aerial baiting to the pastoralists they sat on there hands and did nothing untill the dogs were once again out of control..
3. the reason I know this is because I worked for the APB in the 70's and 80's involved in both noxious weed control and vertebrate pest control.
After moving to QLD I owned and opperated a licensed weed spraying buisness.DPI licensed.
I also spent 12 months at Roma doing parthinium control work for Stock routes and Rural Lands Protection Board.

Mal Ferguson is a good mate of mine.
Does his name ring a bell.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Bushie
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Reged: 24/10/05
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Re: A Current Affair [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #39977 - 28/10/05 11:22 PM

Alan ,
Probably handled a few nasties with the APB in the 70's and 80's . Might explain why you don't like ag. chemicals ? Obviously some issues there with 2,45- T and ex. employees .
No , don't know Mal . A different part of the Wheatbelt perhaps ?

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