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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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BPEBuff
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Reged: 24/03/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Norfolk, England
Paradox for sale - any thoughts?
      #163669 - 08/07/10 06:03 PM

Gent's, I have had a desire to buy a Paradox for some years. This H&H 12 bore 'Royal' has come up for sale recently and a friend (a reputable dealer in the UK) is asking £6000, roughly $10,000 U.S. for it. I havn't viewed it yet but it is reported to have good paradox chokes. I have never seen a Paradox with a straight hand stock before - all those I have seen have been pistol grip in style? I can't decide until I have viewed it/weighed up affordability but if you have any thoughts I would appreciate them.

Garry.













Edited by CptCurl (08/07/10 08:43 PM)

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #163672 - 08/07/10 07:28 PM

Beautiful. I want it.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #163679 - 08/07/10 08:44 PM

Looks really nice. Go for it!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: CptCurl]
      #163699 - 09/07/10 01:33 AM

Looks good to me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Rockdoc
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: NitroX]
      #163701 - 09/07/10 01:57 AM

Wow. A Royal at that price seems like a bargain. Not a heavy Paradox at all. My favourite style of shotgun.

Good luck with it. Cheers, Chris

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gatsby
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #163705 - 09/07/10 03:13 AM

I have a paradox with a straight grip but not strap over comb. Good price if bores are ok.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: gatsby]
      #163707 - 09/07/10 05:31 AM

Take a good close look at the wood, and I'd want to see the metal under it.
What's that chip in the wood behind the top tang?
The forend looks like a replacement.
Is the wrist sound and solid under that checkering..?
The action metal looks a little 'buffed' to me - and note that the forend iron has been refinished too.
As a matter of course I'd also be looking very very closely at the lumps and hook to see if there's been buggery there along the way.
Can you get real-for-real barrel thickness measurements?

Just make sure your 'peek under the skirt' is complete and that whatever you find under there is a good dovetail with your budget and how you plan to use the gun.
I somehow suspect this one is in 'good as refinished, user grade' condition.
It's very hard to tell much from the photos.

Straight-stock rifles can handle quite nicely, I've had (and still do) straight-stocked bore-rifles and I really like how they've handled and shot.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: tinker]
      #163709 - 09/07/10 05:57 AM

Tinker,
I agree that it looks as though there has been some recent refurbishment but if the barrels are well in spec all the rest can be ironed out. Good rifled choke barrels, especially Holland's are very hard to come by.
Straight stocks are not all that uncommon on bore rifles and paradoxes.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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BPEBuff
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: gatsby]
      #163748 - 09/07/10 06:56 PM

Tinker,

Valid comments indeed! I had already spotted the re-finished forend iron and the chip out of the top strap which is also maybe not as flush as it should be? It could be a nice piece but I will go over it thoroughly. As gatsby says,if the barrels are in spec it is probably worth buying.
I hope to view it tomorrow/very soon.

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DarylS
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #163762 - 10/07/10 12:45 AM

TKs John and Gatsby - I was hoping you guys would comment.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: DarylS]
      #163776 - 10/07/10 03:49 AM

Daryl,
I think any Royal paradox with bores under .740 and chokes around .690 with visible rifling is a steal at 10k. The cosmetic items can be taken care of or not and the gun is going to shoot. However, with the Holland paradox guns after 1903 or so you just can't be sure of what the regulation load was and some adjusting may be necessary.
The first volume of Roger Lake's book on rifled choke guns and the Holland paradox in particular will be available by September. Many years researched it is going to be a must have and good read.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #163777 - 10/07/10 04:24 AM

Quote:

Tinker,

Valid comments indeed! I had already spotted the re-finished forend iron and the chip out of the top strap which is also maybe not as flush as it should be? It could be a nice piece but I will go over it thoroughly. As gatsby says,if the barrels are in spec it is probably worth buying.
I hope to view it tomorrow/very soon.



Is it the same dealer that has a Westley Richards Explora in case??.

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BPEBuff
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #164228 - 15/07/10 10:52 PM

I am viewing the Paradox this weekend, thanks to tinker and gatsby who have given me a few dimensions to work with i.e. bore size .740 or less and minor diameter of rifled choke about .690. I have inspected many shotguns and wall thickness and chamber diameter are vital checks to make (I work on .022 wall thickness as a minimum and maybe up to .736 on chamber if she was proofed at .729) how do these criteria apply to a Paradox? I am assuming chamber diameter is the same but Paradox barrels are heavier/thicker of course?
According to Graeme Wright, most Paradox barrels have a bore size around .736 so if it measures .740, I must assume it has been lapped at some stage? Gun dates to 1898 so it is an early one which I believe had larger bore diameter anyway?
The stock near the top tang does look as though it has had a chip repair but may just be the grain -only a hands-on inpsection will tell. Also, the re-blacked forend iron is not to my taste and will need to be 'toned down' if i decide to buy it.

Regards

Garry.

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DarylS
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #164237 - 15/07/10 11:42 PM

I'd really love to own that piece. Re-finish doesn't bother me - I'm a shooter and that gun would kill my deer, elk and moose this fall. Maybe even a bear if I found a nice 7' or better blackie.
What the bore dimensions are is immaterial for me - buy or cut a mould to fit - as long as the barrel wall thickness is OK. Since the rifling still exists, it's probably just fine. Yeah- I'd like to won that one - alas, name's Sapergia, not Rockerfeller.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BPEBuff
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Loc: Norfolk, England
Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: DarylS]
      #164240 - 16/07/10 12:11 AM

Daryl,

Thanks for replying. It looks good in the photographs - probably even better in the 'flesh'??
Hell, I wish I was as rich as Rockerfeler was, I would have a collection par excellence, but, in a way, isn't it just nicer to work extra hours and save like hell to buy something like this - the joy is all the greater?? I am going to stretch my financial reserves to buy this one and may have to trade something to get it but if it's a good one then I intend to bag it! The serial number is 15450 and I have called H&H who kindy informed me that it was made in 1898 and purchased by a Mr Guy Wilson. Original LOP was 14 1/4" with a stright hand stock.
Thanks also for your additional reply re brass and a mould. I have some Blue Dot powder which I think will be fine for reloads.

Regards

Garry.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #164241 - 16/07/10 01:21 AM

My comments on the nature of the finish are a note to look deeper than the surface.
It's a neat configuration, and if it's in running condition it's a desirable hunting gun -- just look deeper than the finish.
I bring that up so that you'll take a closer look at the condition of the metal under the wood. Paradox guns were ideal for hunting in the jungle, and jungle conditions can be hard on guns.
Will you find rust or heavy pitting under the wood?
Will the head and wrist of the stock be sound and solid under the tangs lockwork?

You'll see!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Grenadier
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: tinker]
      #164242 - 16/07/10 01:57 AM

Price seems a little too good. I suggest you arrange with the buyer to have H&H take a look at it as a condition of sale. Big problems are what I would worry about and H&H can help find those if there are any present. Wall thickness has already been mentioned. I am no gunsmith but I can think of a few things like: Is it on face? What does it look like under the lock plates? Is there any sign of water intrusion and/or rust under the ribs? Have the chambers been cut to 2-3/4". Proof and reproof info?

H&H is making and has available factory ammunition. Usually, the old guns only need a front sight replacement to get decent regulation. I would shoot the factory ammo, get that shooting to point of aim, and then tweak any hand loads I was making up to hit the same place as the factory ammo.

Let us know what you learn.

--------------------
~

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gatsby
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: Grenadier]
      #164245 - 16/07/10 02:45 AM

It wouldn't hurt to have Holland look at it. The gun being in the UK it has to be in proof to make a sale, no? Personally I wouldn't want a paradox with wall thickness at.022. I haven't tried the H&H ammo but have heard mixed reviews on it. The date of the gun would make one think a standard paradox load would shoot well in the gun and perhaps the H&H load as well which is said to mimic 30gr cordite load.. With a paradox, the magic is all in the barrels.



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by CptCurl (16/07/10 06:10 AM)

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BPEBuff
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Reged: 24/03/10
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: gatsby]
      #164251 - 16/07/10 04:20 AM

Thanks for useful comments and yes, it must be in proof to legally sell it in the UK. The vendor is Giles Marriot who has a solid reputation so I have no major worries. I am sure the wall thickness on these is going to be .060 as the barrels on those I have seen are certainly weightier than standard shotgun tubes. The gun has obviously been tidied up, if it were in pristine condition in it's original case with all accessories I would be expecting to pay at least £12000 for it.
Caveat Emptor!

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Grenadier
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: gatsby]
      #164253 - 16/07/10 04:30 AM

Quote:

The gun being in the UK it has to be in proof to make a sale, no?



I wasn't suggesting the gun might be out of proof. Rather, proof marks can tell you a lot. For example: was it reproofed for 70mm cartridges, was it reproofed for a larger internal diameter, was it originally proofed for black? It's just worth checking out and understanding the meaning of any marks.

Holland & Holland is the consummate authority on the Paradox guns and nothing could be lost by letting them have a look at it. The last Paradox gun I purchased, I had the seller take it to H&H and made the sale conditional on a clean bill of health. It was understood that H&H wasn't required to verify that the gun was pristine or in the condition they would require to sell themselves. H&H was only to to verify the gun was in sound working condition with no major or hidden faults. They let me know every little thing about the gun and made recommendations on work should I purchase the gun. In the end, I made the purchase and had the gun delivered to H&H for some of the recommended work and for import to the USA. Because the buyer, the seller, and the gun are in H&H's backyard, it seems like a prudent course of action to me.

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Grenadier
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: gatsby]
      #164254 - 16/07/10 04:32 AM

Gatsby, is that the gun you are taking to Washington for the H&H event next month?

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Grenadier
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #164258 - 16/07/10 04:39 AM

Quote:

... if it were in pristine condition in it's original case with all accessories I would be expecting to pay at least £12000 for it.



I would happily pay £12000 for every H&H 'Royal' Paradox you can find in "pristine condition in it's original case with all accessories" as each would be a very good bargain at that price.

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BPEBuff
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: Grenadier]
      #164261 - 16/07/10 05:35 AM

Nuff said all round I think! Over and out for now.

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BPEBuff
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #164438 - 18/07/10 07:48 AM

Gent's, I visited Giles today - he certainly has a treasure trove there! I did not buy the Paradox. This should not stop you guys from buying it, it just looks a little too refreshed and restored for my taste so I am going to wait until he gets a hammerless double in that I can afford. Down to details; the paradox bores are .739 and .742, the chokes are reasonably sharp and are .695 as measured by Giles in my presence. The top strap is about 30-40 thou proud of the comb - Giles said it is from India so the heat has shrunk the wood a tad below the strap. The stock has really nice figure! The forend is very fresh looking but matches the butt stock. It is on the face ok. I think it is a good buy at £6000 but just not for me.

One last thing, he has an awesome Lang .475 No.2 in it's original case with all accessories, just beautiful except for the price, which is £18,500!

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DarylS
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Re: Paradox for sale - any thoughts? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #164454 - 18/07/10 12:31 PM

.003" difference in the bores, A - is that normal guys or does it show one lapped out more than the other?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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