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AFRO408
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450-400 Jeffery in a Martini?
      #163459 - 06/07/10 08:33 AM

Has anybody seen or heard of a Martini Henry rifle chambered in 450-400 3" Jeffery?
I've been searching the net and can't find anything.
I'm concerned that the cartridge may be too long to chamber easily. Is this the case?

Afro

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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TilleyMan
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163469 - 06/07/10 12:32 PM

Never seen or heard of one either... largest I've seen is a .45/70 down at Whitehorse Arms...

I'd be much more concerned about the Martini Henry's action strength over whether a 450-400 round would fit... despite its impressive size, the action is after all made with ~100 year old steels (and emerging knowledge of materials science and heat treating) for the low pressure .577/450 black powder cartridge

A 450-400 Jeffey based on a Ruger No 1 would leave a much greater safety margin IMO and be able to get the most out of the cartridge...


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Daryl_S
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #163533 - 07/07/10 03:29 AM

The action will most certianly 'handle' it, but I think it's too short for that particular round.

The large Martini has very successfully been re-barreled (fast twist) and chambered to the .444 Marlin, and operating at close to 50,000PSI+. The ballistics I remember from the 70's era Gun Digest were 400gr. in the 1,950fps range - from that shorted, straightened out, rimmed '06 case.

Would I do that - possibly - but shows the normal .450/400 is well below the working range of the action.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #163542 - 07/07/10 04:06 AM

I wonder if a .375 2 1/2" Nitro Express would work?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: NitroX]
      #163570 - 07/07/10 10:45 AM

.375x2 1/2" would probably work ok, but I have a .410 barrel so I want to use that.
I already have one in .303 and would like a bigger brother for it.

The 450-400 3" was rated at 16 tons ( 35,840 lb ) /sq ", so I'm not worried about the pressure or the strength of the action, I intend to shoot cast bullets from it anyway.

Looks like I'll have to make a dummy barrel shank and see if the round will feed easily.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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DoubleD
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163571 - 07/07/10 11:12 AM

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DoubleD]
      #163595 - 07/07/10 05:50 PM

Looks like I'll be going for the 450-400, 2 3/8".
Bertram make the brass and it should fit nicely.
The same thing ( 10.3 x 60 R ) is still loaded and used in Switzerland.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163597 - 07/07/10 07:33 PM

Hi Tony,

Until I started to look your selection, I did not know that there are four variations to the 450/400. The one that you have selected is the smallest of the four. Ammoguide.com has no information on it which I guess is not unusual for the age of the caliber.

Cheers for now,

Jeff Gray


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #163605 - 07/07/10 08:27 PM

Hi Jeff,

My Cartridges of the World, #9, lists the three versions as Black, Nitro for Black, and Nitro, all in the same cartridge, with bullet weights from 210-270g in the Black load, to 400g jacketed in the Nitro load.

I think that a 350-400g gas check lead bullet, at 1600-1700fps, would be a peach.

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #163612 - 07/07/10 09:05 PM


Hi Tony,

I meant the case size, 2 vastly different and 2 with rim thickness. The load you have selected will be a "Pussy Cat" to shoot. I will look into my old books to see what I can find for you.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #163619 - 07/07/10 09:43 PM

Hi Tony,

In the earlier 7th edition, it shows 2 loads for the 10.3x60R,

235 SP RL-15 66.0gn MV 2432 ME 3324 RWS info
330 SP FL MV 2070 ME 3143

Same book but under the 450/400 BPE 2 3/8 & 450/400 Nitro for BP

230 Lead FL 1750 1563 Smokeless Factory Load
270 Lead FL 1650 1640

Just had a thought, if your busy for 4 months, how can you build this one.... Just Joking

Cheers,

Jeff Gray


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Daryl_S
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DoubleD]
      #163623 - 07/07/10 11:07 PM

Quote:

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.




I really don't think there is a problem.
40,000PSI is well under a .303 British's 44,000CUP which is over 50,000PSI. Anyone shooting a Lee Speed or M98, model 88 or M93's through 96's with factory Norma 6.5x55mm through 8mm Mauser? Those are all over 50,000PSI. Note there is a big difference between CIP's PSI which almost matches CIP and CUP and the US # derived by tranducer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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DoubleD
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #163630 - 08/07/10 12:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.




I really don't think there is a problem.
40,000PSI is well under a .303 British's 44,000CUP which is over 50,000PSI. Anyone shooting a Lee Speed or M98, model 88 or M93's through 96's with factory Norma 6.5x55mm through 8mm Mauser? Those are all over 50,000PSI. Note there is a big difference between CIP's PSI which almost matches CIP and CUP and the US # derived by tranducer.




But there are more square inches in 450/400 chamber than in a .303 chamber.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Loc: Arding NSW
Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #163661 - 08/07/10 03:55 PM

Quote:

Hi Tony,

In the earlier 7th edition, it shows 2 loads for the 10.3x60R,

235 SP RL-15 66.0gn MV 2432 ME 3324 RWS info
330 SP FL MV 2070 ME 3143

Same book but under the 450/400 BPE 2 3/8 & 450/400 Nitro for BP

230 Lead FL 1750 1563 Smokeless Factory Load
270 Lead FL 1650 1640

Just had a thought, if your busy for 4 months, how can you build this one.... Just Joking

Cheers,

Jeff Gray




Hey Jeff,

Thanks for those loads. Should be good medicine on pigs and such.

Well........if I book my job in now, I'll get to do it in 4 months time, give me time to get cases, make the reamer and sizing die.......

Cheers

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #180026 - 26/04/11 08:30 PM

Hi folks,
It's been a while since I asked the first question and the rifle is slowly coming together now.
I've test fired the barrel and tried to fire form the cases. It's chambered in 450-400 2 3/8"
I soldered the sights to the barrel today and will soon see if it will shoot.





These sights were cleaned up and recycled from an old Parker Hale rifle. I only wanted one fixed sight and this will suit very well. The front sight will probably end up as a silver blade, but we'll see.

Cheers,
Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (12/05/11 09:31 PM)


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FATBOY404
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #180027 - 26/04/11 08:35 PM

Good to see some "Tony time" mate. Looks good.

More photo's please of the bullet and the build.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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eljefedouble
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: FATBOY404]
      #180034 - 26/04/11 10:13 PM

That checkering on front sight ramp is nice, Tony.Yup, keep us posted

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"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
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DoubleD
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #180037 - 26/04/11 11:09 PM

Glad to see you progressing on this project. It sounds like you had no issues with getting the cartridge to turn the corner and go in the chamber...great.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: DoubleD]
      #180071 - 27/04/11 08:07 AM

YES! It fits perfectly
Near enough to being the same length as the 577-450 original.

Projectile is from an RCBS mould 311g, .411dia, plain base, cast from wheel weight alloy, 50/50 beeswax/superfry lube.

A bit of info on the history of the action.



It was issued to the Vic Police, according to the stamp on the butt, if it's the original.

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (12/05/11 09:31 PM)


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AFRO408
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Reged: 21/01/09
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: TilleyMan]
      #180105 - 27/04/11 06:00 PM

Quote:

Never seen or heard of one either... largest I've seen is a .45/70 down at Whitehorse Arms...

I'd be much more concerned about the Martini Henry's action strength over whether a 450-400 round would fit... despite its impressive size, the action is after all made with ~100 year old steels (and emerging knowledge of materials science and heat treating) for the low pressure .577/450 black powder cartridge

A 450-400 Jeffey based on a Ruger No 1 would leave a much greater safety margin IMO and be able to get the most out of the cartridge...




Yeah but it's a bloody Yank rifle with bloody slooooow lock time and if you'r hunting with gloves on, it's so easy to accidentally unlatch the lever and when the thing's cocked, the block just drops down silently. You may as well carry an empty rifle! This from personal experience.

Cheers,
Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #180107 - 27/04/11 06:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The .375 x 2 1/2 works quite well in the Martini...I have one

CIP says the 450/400 N.E. 3" is a 2800 bar cartridge, that's over 40,000 psi, not something I would feed as a steady diet to 100 year+ rifle, even a Martini.

The 450/400 is a BN so it might feed, but it's not a cartridge I would shot in a Martini.




I really don't think there is a problem.
40,000PSI is well under a .303 British's 44,000CUP which is over 50,000PSI. Anyone shooting a Lee Speed or M98, model 88 or M93's through 96's with factory Norma 6.5x55mm through 8mm Mauser? Those are all over 50,000PSI. Note there is a big difference between CIP's PSI which almost matches CIP and CUP and the US # derived by tranducer.




..... and Daryl, they were shooting the old Cordite .303 rounds in some bloody hot places around the world and they must have been producing nearly Proof loads!!

Tony

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.


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AFRO408
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183000 - 02/06/11 04:16 PM

A bit of an update on the project.
It's something I've been wanting to do for a long time and that is make a takedown rifle.
Been burning the candle at both ends trying to get the prototype ready for this weekend at Dalby.

The Matini action already has a recess at the front of the action, so I thought I would use that to lock it.
First a block had to be machined to fit the barrel shank and take the sliding dovetailed tongue.


I next fitted a lever that would unlock the tongue and also give me some leverage for tightening and loosening the barrel. Both the tongue and lever are case hardened. The pins are made from music wire.


Once the mechanism was working well, I screwed and soldered the lock block to the barrel shank.


I'm using the old wood to prove the concept, so the next job was to fit the forearm over the block and fit the finger recess, which also holds the forearm onto the barrel. When I make the real stock, I will put a bolt through the forearm just in front of the lock, to stop the wood from splitting.




I've got 40 rounds loaded for the shoot and we will see how it goes. It had better work as I'll have lots of witnesses.

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by CptCurl (05/06/11 10:19 PM)


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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: AFRO408]
      #183002 - 02/06/11 04:51 PM

Hi Tony,

Very nice and a good idea, just think of all those Martini's out there awaiting this conversion... Bloody Great Idea.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.


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lancaster
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #183006 - 02/06/11 05:30 PM

bloody nice take down

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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FATBOY404
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Re: 450-400 Jeffery in a Martini? [Re: lancaster]
      #183007 - 02/06/11 06:41 PM

You gunsmiths cant leave "well enough alone" can you ?.

Neat idea and good work mate.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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